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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1214
Location: Nicosia
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Bananiot wrote: |
| http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=118755 |
What a whole bunch of nonsense! If he serves Turkish interests (rubbish,) why are almost the entire Turkish Cypriot political leadership and community bitching against him all the time? Someone perhaps should tell the above journalist that the Greek Cypriot public (her target audience in this instance) is definitely cleverer than what she thinks we are, not to talk again about my favorite Aesop’s fable of the “fox and the crow!” |
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turkkan
Senior Villager
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 198
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| Beleive it or not Talat actually wants to go down as the Turkish Cypriot leader who brought peace to cyprus, hes dieing to negotiate and he actually does want a solution, ofcourse not one that you want but he certainly does want a solution similiar to the annan plan. Paps gamble was that with EU pressure turkey will provide concessions, a legitimate gamble at the time, but with france and austria and certain other countries becoming more and more resistant to the idea of turkey joining the EU, especially after the referendums in france and Austria concerning the EU constitution, it is obvious now turkey is not entering the EU and as such it has no incentive to compromise. Around the time of the annan referndum the AKP at least did seem to beleive that they were on the verge of entering the EU, there was even talk then of it being in 5 years. Now there is no such talk and with other crisis happening in turkey, cyprus is certainly nowhere near the top of turkeys agenda. Paps if elected, will mean another 5 years of no solution for sure, that makes the partition in Cyprus up to 38 years, if we assume (and this is a big assumption) that the next Republic of Cyprus president decideds to negotiate for a solution it will take at least two years for the meetings to be set up so by then the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will have existed for 40 years, with that time frame it will be hard to reverse the situation on the ground and certainly will play in the hands of the Turkish Cypriot. Paps is certainly the best person for the Turkish Cypriot's and turkey to be elected. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| turkkan wrote: |
| Beleive it or not Talat actually wants to go down as the Turkish Cypriot leader who brought peace to cyprus, hes dieing to negotiate and he actually does want a solution, ofcourse not one that you want but he certainly does want a solution similiar to the annan plan. Paps gamble was that with EU pressure turkey will provide concessions, a legitimate gamble at the time, but with france and austria and certain other countries becoming more and more resistant to the idea of turkey joining the EU, especially after the referendums in france and Austria concerning the EU constitution, it is obvious now turkey is not entering the EU and as such it has no incentive to compromise. Around the time of the annan referndum the AKP at least did seem to beleive that they were on the verge of entering the EU, there was even talk then of it being in 5 years. Now there is no such talk and with other crisis happening in turkey, cyprus is certainly nowhere near the top of turkeys agenda. Paps if elected, will mean another 5 years of no solution for sure, that makes the partition in Cyprus up to 38 years, if we assume (and this is a big assumption) that the next Republic of Cyprus president decideds to negotiate for a solution it will take at least two years for the meetings to be set up so by then the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will have existed for 40 years, with that time frame it will be hard to reverse the situation on the ground and certainly will play in the hands of the Turkish Cypriot. Paps is certainly the best person for the Turkish Cypriot's and turkey to be elected. |
The problem with you (Turkish Cypriots) is that you wrongfully believe that you have a fair chance to ever get the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” to be recognized, without a Greek Cypriot approval and signature!
The truth though is that as the facts have (CoE reports, ECHR court decisions and UN resolutions,) and as we have managed to log Cyprus (EU and treaty of accession,) you have very little to no chance whatsoever, not now, neither in 10, 20 or even 50 years down the line! You will always need our signature or approval, and the only way you can get it is if you pass over our dead bodies!
As for the Kosovo example, this is also another futile hope they would like to spoon feed you! There is absolutely no relationship or connection between the case of Kosovo and that of Cyprus! The facts, the political and the legal merits are entirely different and unparallel!
The sad thing is that there are also Greek Cypriots that would unintentionally feed you this futile hope, when they use the case of Kosovo in order to scare-monger the Greek Cypriot public against Papadopoulos, for their own internal micro-political ambitions!
As for Talat, if you so believe he is interested in a solution, then explain to us why he is back-tracking and side-tracking for the last one whole year, on the terms and the content of the “8th of July” agreement that he himself co-signed with Papadopoulos? Who mostly wants a solution from the two, and who is the more constructive and less intransigent, is obvious from their behavior since they signed the “8th of July” agreement; and this is not Papadopoulos that your propaganda and some Greek Cypriots would like us to believe! |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Kifeas wrote: |
The problem with you (Turkish Cypriots) is that you wrongfully believe that you have a fair chance to ever get the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” to be recognized, without a Greek Cypriot approval and signature!
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And the problem with you (not all Greek Cypriots but some) is that you think that just because we legally need your "approval" today, that it will also remain that way in the next 30, 40, 50 years. You think that legality is all matters and politics has nothing to do with recognition and non-recognition of states.
Another problem with you is that you ask us to accept your maximal demands to get your "approval" for a solution but when we don't, you expect the time to stop in the north. You expect people not to build properties, not to trade, not to participate in sports, and so on. You expect that one day we will become so poor and desperate that we will come begging you for your "approval".
So, both sides have their "problems" and their wishful expectations and as a result, we have missed the last 40 years or so and we're still missing today. Any leader who recognizes this loss and who actively tries to stop it in any way gets my respect. Papadopoulos is not one of them because his whole strategy is to prolong this period of missed opportunities with more "wishful thinking" and you can't deny that. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| Quote: |
The truth though is that as the facts have (CoE reports, ECHR court decisions and UN resolutions,) and as we have managed to log Cyprus (EU and treaty of accession,) you have very little to no chance whatsoever, not now, neither in 10, 20 or even 50 years down the line! You will always need our signature or approval, and the only way you can get it is if you pass over our dead bodies!
As for the Kosovo example, this is also another futile hope they would like to spoon feed you! There is absolutely no relationship or connection between the case of Kosovo and that of Cyprus! The facts, the political and the legal merits are entirely different and unparallel!
The sad thing is that there are also Greek Cypriots that would unintentionally feed you this futile hope, when they use the case of Kosovo in order to scare-monger the Greek Cypriot public against Papadopoulos, for their own internal micro-political ambitions! |
first it is not some Greek Cypriots which have used the kossovo example. it is the (finally a serious one) minister of foreign affairs of Cyprus (and tpap in that respect).
the reason that kosovo is dangerous is precisely because there is absolutely no legal foundation for the partition of kosovo. not only had kosovo no right to partition from yugoslavia or serbia, but also the SC resolution 1244 specifically said that it belonged to serbia. now the same permanent member (3 of them at least) who voted for that resolution, want to recognise kosovo. and it seems that they are prepared even to moove outside the legal framework of the UN by unilaterally recognising kosovo.
that definitely concerns us, and hopefully (I seriously doubt that) it will waken up some politicians from their futile legalistic analysis.
(this does not mean that the big powers will next turn to cyprus. this is highly doubtful. what it shows is that the SC resolutions have their limits, and even those who voted for them can go against them.)
the problem is that this futile legalistic analysis does not allow them to see beyond their nose. they assume that partition only counts when it is de jure - something which admittedly, is difficult to happen. the construction boom and a probable lift of the isolations IS partition. de jure or not is completely irrelevant.
somehow they have confused the targets, and instead of the target being
a solution, the target has become the non-recognition of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". if you cant get the Turkish Cypriots on the negotiating table, this IS partition. if they manage to receive partial recognition it will not make any difference for them if the state is recognised or not.
not only that, they ignore tha factor time (not surprisingly since time does not come in their law studies).
all that construction boom means that if there was a chance for more refuggees to return it is gone.
we will have to accept more settlers as they will also fall in the category of "staying for humanitarian reasons"
the factors can go on, but i dont want to repeat the same things over and over again. in short tpap has failed, and it I agree that if he is elected again partition (de jure or not) will be cemented. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
the problem is that this futile legalistic analysis does not allow them to see beyond their nose. they assume that partition only counts when it is de jure - something which admittedly, is difficult to happen. the construction boom and a probable lift of the isolations IS partition. de jure or not is completely irrelevant.
somehow they have confused the targets, and instead of the target being
a solution, the target has become the non-recognition of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus".
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cypezokyli, I would put my signature under your post. Glad to see that somebody from the "other" side also recognizes the danger of the current status quo. |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8920
Location: London/Cyprus
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| Mete wrote: |
| cypezokyli wrote: |
the problem is that this futile legalistic analysis does not allow them to see beyond their nose. they assume that partition only counts when it is de jure - something which admittedly, is difficult to happen. the construction boom and a probable lift of the isolations IS partition. de jure or not is completely irrelevant.
somehow they have confused the targets, and instead of the target being
a solution, the target has become the non-recognition of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus".
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cypezokyli, I would put my signature under your post. Glad to see that somebody from the "other" side also recognizes the danger of the current status quo. |
Make that two signatures under your post cypze. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Kifeas wrote: |
If he serves Turkish interests (rubbish,) why are almost the entire Turkish Cypriot political leadership and community bitching against him all the time?
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This is akin to a Turkish Cypriot not agreeing that Denktash did serve to Greek Cypriot interests. But we all know that he did. Whether he wanted to serve to Greek Cypriot interests or not is a different question but if there was someone else instead of Denktash, the Greek side could not so easily become an EU member. Hence so many Turkish Cypriots (including Afrika columnists) blamed Denktash for serving to Greek Cypriot interests while Greek Cypriots hated and still hate him. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
| Quote: |
The truth though is that as the facts have (CoE reports, ECHR court decisions and UN resolutions,) and as we have managed to log Cyprus (EU and treaty of accession,) you have very little to no chance whatsoever, not now, neither in 10, 20 or even 50 years down the line! You will always need our signature or approval, and the only way you can get it is if you pass over our dead bodies!
As for the Kosovo example, this is also another futile hope they would like to spoon feed you! There is absolutely no relationship or connection between the case of Kosovo and that of Cyprus! The facts, the political and the legal merits are entirely different and unparallel!
The sad thing is that there are also Greek Cypriots that would unintentionally feed you this futile hope, when they use the case of Kosovo in order to scare-monger the Greek Cypriot public against Papadopoulos, for their own internal micro-political ambitions! |
first it is not some Greek Cypriots which have used the kossovo example. it is the (finally a serious one) minister of foreign affairs of Cyprus (and tpap in that respect).
the reason that kosovo is dangerous is precisely because there is absolutely no legal foundation for the partition of kosovo. not only had kosovo no right to partition from yugoslavia or serbia, but also the SC resolution 1244 specifically said that it belonged to serbia. now the same permanent member (3 of them at least) who voted for that resolution, want to recognise kosovo. and it seems that they are prepared even to moove outside the legal framework of the UN by unilaterally recognising kosovo. |
pezo, it is one thing to be cautious and on alert, with or without Kosovo in perspective, and another thing to start unreasonably panicking! I repeat again, the merits of Kosovo and Cyprus cases are very different! In Kosovo we do not have a foreign invasion that forcefully expelled the 80% of the indigenous and legal inhabitants, like we have in the case of occupied Cyprus. In Kosovo we do not have a case in which 80% of the private properties, or 61% of the total land, belonging to people that were expelled, whose properties were usurped, and who are not accepted as part of the people whose will is to be taken into consideration in expressing the desire of the region to become independed. Kosovo has historically been a separate region and a separate state of the Yugoslav federation (more like FYR of Macedonia and Montenegro,) whose population has gradually turned out to become ethnic Albanians due to Serbian internal migration; and not due to a foreign invasion, ethnic cleansing and transportation of outside population from any occupying country.
In Cyprus, our strongest card is no more the UN resolutions, but Cyprus’s EU membership and the EU treaty of accession of the 10 new members, plus the ECHR decisions on Cyprus! It has become part of the EU policy and an EU aqui (law) that Cyprus is one entity, a member of the EU as one entity, and that it can only be re-united so that the occupied areas are also de-facto (besides currently being de-jure) intergraded in the EU. This is a law of the EU that cannot be changed unilaterally (without our signature) by any of the EU organs or any of it’s member states alone, as this will definitely dynamite the entire 10 new member enlargement and severely undermine the foundations of the entire EU construction. It is neither legally nor politically possible, and do not also forget that 2 of the EU members are also UN SC permanent members. The other 2 are China and Russia, and the only one left to be concerned with is the US. Well, I do not think the US will ever dare take such a path that will bring it in direct confrontation with the EU!
I suggest we do not foolishly and unreasonably add fuel to the desire of the majority of the Turkish Cypriots to see themselves running away with northern Cyprus, by telling them that perhaps there is a possibility one day to become recognised like Kosovo, for the sake of promoting our internal pre-election micro-political objectives; because their first and outmost priority is not solution and re-unification, but to seal for themselves the best 37% of Cyprus!
And a last comment on the above, the FM clearly made an unintentional tone and vocabulary mistake, in the way she aired her concerns visa vie Kosovo! She probably didn’t thing too much of all the parameters, before commenting on the recent developments on Kosovo, however, this is not sufficient reason for all the rest of us to start panicking, because she is the FM!
| Quote: |
| that definitely concerns us, and hopefully (I seriously doubt that) it will waken up some politicians from their futile legalistic analysis. |
“Futile legalistic analysis???” Lol!
I can assure you, had this “legalistic analysis” not existed, not only the Turks would have never sat on the table with us, but they wouldn’t even say that occasional “good morning” they used to do after 1974! That is the only factor that compels them to want an agreed solution, otherwise, if it was all a matter of politics, not only they wouldn’t, but they would have already run away with 37% of Cyprus! If you think that had we used only political means and ways, in our pursuit to solve the Cyprus problem, we would have had any better chance, you are terribly wrong! In fact, before 2004, (before EU accession) we had zero political leverage, in the face of Turkey, but only a “futile legalistic” one, and it proved not to be so “futile!” Only after EU accession one can rightfully claim we also have political leverage to bargain with Turkey!
| Quote: |
| the problem is that this futile legalistic analysis does not allow them to see beyond their nose. they assume that partition only counts when it is de jure - something which admittedly, is difficult to happen. the construction boom and a probable lift of the isolations IS partition. de jure or not is completely irrelevant. |
Who are you referring to, pezo, that you think they cannot see beyond their nose? Papadopoulos? Is it so? Think about it! Whose initiatives and machinations after the 2004 referendums had brought us to the “8th of July” agreement? Is it Talat’s and Turkey’s initiatives, by only saying that they were the side that accepted the Annan “solution” plan and thus done their “duty,” and now the international community must “reward” them, and if the Greek Cypriots want a solution the plan is there for them to pick it up and accept it? Isn’t it Papadopoulos, who step by step since 2004 managed to bypass this deadlock and put the solution prospects back to a negotiating prospect, on the basis of the “8th of July” agreement? Who is now more committed to his “8th of July” signature, and who is trying to back and side track from it? Who of the two is proving more to want an agreed solution, and who has made the most proposals in order to facilitate the progress of the new agreement? Isn't it Papadopoulos? Is the "8th of July" agreement, the product of a "futile legalistic analysis!" I hope you can now see how your above assumptions are terribly unjust and unfounded! |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1214
Location: Nicosia
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Poor old Mrs Markoulli, she must have got into big trouble with no. 1 by telling the Turkish Cypriots how to go about their business and look forward to achieving results through the Kosovo example. I am sure the Turks with their low iq would have never thought of this, had it not been for the Foreign Minister.
On the other hand, have you considered that the reverse might be true? Probably Kosovo faces a real danger of ... Cyprusification! Russia, a traditional ally of Serbia, is trying hard to prevent the tearing away of Kosovo from Serbia. In doing so, Russia is pointing out to the Cyprus model, that is, the postponement of solution and and allowing the perpetuation of the problem, waiting in the wings for better days.
Thus, Kifeas may have got this one right, partly at least, despite his difficulties to view things from the political prospective.
Furthermore, I liked an article in "Politis" today by Stellios Georgiou, a psychology professor at the university of Cyprus. He reminds us that God made up a committee for the creation of one of his creatures. The committee came up with the ugliest, smelliest and ungraceful creature, the camel. Also, if you want to stall a process, make a committee. This 8th of July agreement calls for the creation of committees to look at every day matters and matters of substance. We suggested that the committees should look at 96 chapters and the other side listed about 35.
Would a century be enough for these committees to go through their business. By the way, what has happened to the Ankara protocol? Is it on the table in the morgue, just like the Anan Plan? |
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Othellos
Villager
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 25
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Who are you referring to, pezo, that you think they cannot see beyond their nose? Papadopoulos? Is it so? Think about it! |
Well...he does have a big nose.... 
| Kifeas wrote: |
| .........Isn’t it Papadopoulos, who step by step since 2004 managed to bypass this deadlock and put the solution prospects back to a negotiating prospect, on the basis of the “8th of July” agreement? |
What "deadlock by-pass" and what "solution prospects"? Since 2004 I have not seen anyone being bothered about the Cyprus problem.
| Kifeas wrote: |
| .........Who is now more committed to his “8th of July” signature, and who is trying to back and side track from it? Who of the two is proving more to want an agreed solution, and who has made the most proposals in order to facilitate the progress of the new agreement? Isn't it Papadopoulos? |
No matter how "committed" Papadopoulos claims that he is to any agreement that may lead to a solution, the sad fact is that nobody outside Cyprus will ever believe him, considering how crudely he "handled" the UN efforts for a solution back in 2004. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| Quote: |
“Futile legalistic analysis???” Lol!
I can assure you, had this “legalistic analysis” not existed, not only the Turks would have never sat on the table with us, but they wouldn’t even say that occasional “good morning” they used to do after 1974! That is the only factor that compels them to want an agreed solution, otherwise, if it was all a matter of politics, not only they wouldn’t, but they would have already run away with 37% of Cyprus! If you think that had we used only political means and ways, in our pursuit to solve the Cyprus problem, we would have had any better chance, you are terribly wrong! |
the only time that the turks sat with us on the table was precisely the time when we played politics.
it was our decision to enter the EU that created a window of opportunity that brought the turks on the table. it was no SC resolution , no ECHR rulling , no document whatsoever.
and to put it this way. the EU accession process created a window of opportunity bc the UN could use that to put pressure on us as well as turkey.
| Quote: |
| In fact, before 2004, (before EU accession) we had zero political leverage, in the face of Turkey, but only a “futile legalistic” one, and it proved not to be so “futile!” Only after EU accession one can rightfully claim we also have political leverage to bargain with Turkey! |
the EU leverage theorem is based on assumptions that can be easily put into question :
1. we assume that we alone can (politcally and legally) to stop turkeys accession process
2. we assume that the EU wants turkey in the EU
3. we assume that turkey wants to enter the EU
these are pretty strong assumptions. dont you think ?
from the point of view of the outcomes ....to be honest since 1 may 2004, i did not see any of that political leverage bringing any tangible benefits.
and to be honest the EU strategy we follow is our biggest failure... and i can explain you why.
| Quote: |
| Think about it! Whose initiatives and machinations after the 2004 referendums had brought us to the “8th of July” agreement? Is it Talat’s and Turkey’s initiatives, by only saying that they were the side that accepted the Annan “solution” plan and thus done their “duty,” and now the international community must “reward” them, and if the Greek Cypriots want a solution the plan is there for them to pick it up and accept it? Isn’t it Papadopoulos, who step by step since 2004 managed to bypass this deadlock and put the solution prospects back to a negotiating prospect, on the basis of the “8th of July” agreement? Who is now more committed to his “8th of July” signature, and who is trying to back and side track from it? Who of the two is proving more to want an agreed solution, and who has made the most proposals in order to facilitate the progress of the new agreement? Isn't it Papadopoulos? Is the "8th of July" agreement, the product of a "futile legalistic analysis!" I hope you can now see how your above assumptions are terribly unjust and unfounded! |
let us accept that it was tassos initiative and not the UN.
let us accept that (as our press claims) that talat is to blame for the absence of progress.
let us accept that this process can indeed lead us to a solution.
do you feel that we are now close to a solution, through the great 8th july initiative ? let me remind you that i care for a solution not an initiative.
so where is our "political leverage" that would pressure talat to negotiate ?
since we are not approaching a solution that only thing that we could win from this process is to manage to shift the blame on the other side ( frankly i believe that this is our only target - but my opinion is irrelevant). did tpap managed to at least do that ?
if it is indeed talat who is not cooperating where are those good old reports that blamed denktash ? |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| It is indeed the greatest of vanities to try and argue on Cyprus with people that do not seem to know what they are talking about! Sorry people, no offence but unfortunately I have neither time nor appetitive to keep endlessly going circles! Call it a surrender if you so wish! |
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Othellos
Villager
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 25
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| It is indeed the greatest of vanities to try and argue on Cyprus with people that do not seem to know what they are talking about! Sorry people, no offence but unfortunately I have neither time nor appetitive to keep endlessly going circles! Call it a surrender if you so wish! |
What has Tassos Papadopoulos "achieved" in the last 4 1/2 years for Cyprus, other than bringing any solution efforts at a total stalemate while trying to divide the Cypriot people into "patriots" and "traitors"?
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