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Birkibrisli
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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Moderator's note: Split from this thread http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2924
| Bullika wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I CAn't tell you how delighted I am to hear your opinions above,Memo.They are essentially the same as mine.I love our Cypriot dialect,and will always fight to keep it alive.I was born in a little village in Paphos,but my father was a primary school teacher,so I lived all over the island between 1955 and 1963,as Father changed schools.In December,1963 we were in Nicosia,and that I suppose was rather lucky.
The point is I experienced first hand many Turkish Cypriot dialects(or accents to be more precise),astonishing as it might seems to outsiders the Turkish spoken in Paphos is different to the one in Limassol which in turn was different to the one in Larnaca,which was again different to the one in Nicosia.I was very good with immitating all the different accents.When I came to Australia I studied Engineering but hated practising it so I became a Turkish interpreter/translator.I was mostly interpreting for mainland Turks,and I was shocked to realise how much they looked down on us Turkish Cypriots because of our accent.I soon learned to put on a "Turkish" accent while working,and managed to convince most people I was from the mainland,so much so that my clients would praise my work saying how glad they were I wasn't from Cyprus like some of the other interpreters whom they bittterly criticised.And while they were at it they said some other choice words about those "so called Turks from Cyprus"To be fair to peop[le from Turkey,I must point out that most of these people were uneducated,working class people with whom educated Turks like our own Tufan would have had difficulty communicating.
And indeed some of them were actually Kurdish,but that is another story.
To cut a long story short,after 10 years of interpreting work (I couldn't stand the pretense for any longer),and after a 7-year marriage to someone from Turkey,I can assure you ,dear Memo,that us Turkish Cypriots and our Turkish cousins are two very different people in more ways than i can explain here.Maybe now you can understand a bit more why I would rather throw my lot in with 600,000 Greek Cypriots than 70 million Turks from the mainland.With our own compatriots we stand a chance of influencing them as much as being influenced.With our cousins we have no chance.It is either their way or the highway. |
I can see you point but of course it depends on what kind of a solution we agree on. If our rights are sufficiently protected and there is will then it might work.
Tell me more about the sub dialects of Kibrislica? |
It is difficult to explain it in writing ,Memo,as most of the difference is in the pronunciation.But I will try.
Paphos region has the strongest accent,of course.It is very interesting what Mic wrote,that it is the same in Cypriot Greek.
In Paphos we use a lot of Greek words or their Turkified versions.
This is my mother's favorite story about a Turkish Cypriot woman who took a rooster to a hoca to help with his grandson's illness:
"Oglumun oglusu Ibrahimara
aldi genni sitimara(sitma-remove the dot from the i memo)
getirdim saga bir bedinara (g as in agach)
yapasin genne bir muskara(nuska)..." 
In different regions the accents on words are different.
In Famagusta for example the stress is on the first syllable on proper names (like Ah'met Nec'la Hu'seyin etc).
in some regions the letter 'n' is replaced by 'm',especially when it is at the beginning.And of course there is the degree of "inversion" of the syntax. "Gandir cocugu be da Taksim istesin" in paphos becomes "Ma gandiracan cocugu da istesin Taksim bre"
This last example would be interesting to our Greek speaking compatriots.
There is a saying in Cypriot Turkish :"I am not a naive child,you can't trick me into wanting Partition."
But I have forgotten most of it ,memo.Someone should do a phd on this,before it is all lost,before we all speak"proper' Turkish.
"Cocugu kandirin da Taksim istesin"... |
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Birkibrisli
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dont mean to sound rude, but we dont care. Thats a different issue. Why cant two Turkish Cypriots talk about their dialect without a Greek Cypriot making a comparison with their dialect!
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But,Memo...I am surprized at you.Mic was making a perfectly valid point.
We share this experience of our language not being taken seriously,and hence us Cypriots being looked down upon by the mainlanders.
The tragedy is that not only are we not taken seriously by the mainlanders,some of us are trying to be more Turkish or Greek than them.We identify more with our oppressors(or those who are prejudices against us) than with each other.Freud would have had a field day with that.  |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| Quote: |
dont mean to sound rude, but we dont care. Thats a different issue. Why cant two Turkish Cypriots talk about their dialect without a Greek Cypriot making a comparison with their dialect!
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But,Memo...I am surprized at you.Mic was making a perfectly valid point.
We share this experience of our language not being taken seriously,and hence us Cypriots being looked down upon by the mainlanders.
The tragedy is that not only are we not taken seriously by the mainlanders,some of us are trying to be more Turkish or Greek than them.We identify more with our oppressors(or those who are prejudices against us) than with each other.Freud would have had a field day with that. |
Interesting as it is, I dont mean to offend anyone here, I am not interested. Besides can we not talk about Turkish Cypriots without reverting the topic back to Greek Cypriots? are we siamese twins?
If we keep diverting back to Cypriot Greek then we will never be able to do any justice to Kibrislica (Cypriot Turkish) nor talk about it in any depth and I for one really want to discuss this.
Could you plz elaborate further on those sub dialects on Gibrizlija. I found your post very informative. I am making written notes on what u r saying. What are the main differences in your opinion? How different is Bafca to Karpasca? or the language of the Lefkosalis to the Leymosunlus?
I am very interested, u can PM me if you like. |
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Eric Dayi
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[quote="Birkibrisli"][MicAtCyp:
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Well...Mic gardash...It is pretty much the same for us in Turkey,I was being diplomatic in my expresions so as not to offend the likes of Eric Dayi too much  In Turkey they don't think we are peasants,they think we are "British bastards" if they mean well,and "Greek bastards" if they don't mean so well  .As you say...it is the mentality...the way of thinking...of expressing everything...and the ethical code. |
Why should I be offended if you got treated badly Birkibrisli? Maybe they treated you like that because you somehow showed them that you do not like being a Turk. Maybe because you looked down at them because you thought you are better than them.
Me? I never had problems with any Turks, be it from Turkey or Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus because I make sure they know I am as Turkish they are. You on the other hand try to hide your Turkishness and that is why people do not like about you and look down to you. Try changing your attitude and you might get people to like you.
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| I couldn't agree with you more.This is what makes us Cypriots,gardashim.This is what makes us ONE NATION.It is not even our common gene pool that makes us one people.Genes are not visible,and we can ignore all the evidence,as they are doing as we speak.It is all the above plus our food,folklore,traditions,sense of humour,and alas stubbornness |
See what I mean? You want to be just a "Cypriot" and complain that Turks look down on you, what did you expect, a pay on the shoulder and a welldone?
| Quote: |
| In Cypriot Turkish that would be:"Naapacan bre gardashim,yok bashka care!"But there is an alternative,Mic...To be proudly Cypriots and tell everyone else to take their stupid prejudices and go"get kicked by a donkey!" |
In other words "Essek tepsin seni". |
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Birkibrisli
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I am glad you are finding gibrislica fascinating,memo.
But I am not an expert on this.Remember that I was 17 when I left Cyprus almost 37 years ago now.I am talking from the top of my head.Oral history, if you like.
Another difference is the emphasis we put on the final "g" we seemed to put on everything.In paphos 'annading?" becomes "annan?".We seemed to want to shorten most things,take short cuts with Greek words.
"Torununu gordun mu?" would be "Angonini gordun?" in Paphos,and 'Torunu gordung" in Limassol.(I sometimes wonder if our love of the "ng" at the end of words is not from the English 'ing").
Different regions pronounce this g differently.It is almost nonexistent in paphos but very strong in Nicosia,for example.I know very little about the Karpaz region as it was mostly inhabited by Greek Cypriots and maronites if i am not wrong.But I know that Karpaz region was another strong dielect region like paphos.As i said somebody should study all this in depth.
I also know we have a lot of words from Italian which might be from the Roman times."Sakko,potin, kundura,baston..." and a host of other words not heard of in Turkey are from italian i think.It would be interesting if these are also used by the Greek Cypriots,don't you think???
Also 'zebil' 'zeflemek' 'dasbin' are uniquely Cypriot Turkish words,the last one being from "dustbin" of course.I will finish this post with another gem from a Turkish Cypriot from paphos.Trying to explain what happened to my grandfather's donkey,the caretaker knocked on their front door and explained in his best Cypriotturkish "Sen essek,kopardin ipini,giddin yedin yedin yedin arpayi,giddin ictin ictin ictin neroyu,geberdin..." |
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Birkibrisli
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In other words "Essek tepsin seni".
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That's right,Eric Dayi.A wonderful Cypriotturkish expression.
My sentiments exactly |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I also know we have a lot of words from Italian which might be from the Roman times."Sakko,potin, kundura,baston..." and a host of other words not heard of in Turkey are from italian i think.It would be interesting if these are also used by the Greek Cypriots,don't you think???
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No, not if we use this to divert attention from Cypriot Turkish to Cypriot Greek. Cypriot Greek has whole books written about it. Cypriot Turkish is neglected therefore we have to do what the Greek Cypriots do and give it undivided attention.
Besides, there is more to Cypriot Turkish than Greek influences. We have Eski Anadolu Turkce (Old Anatolian Turkish) influences, influences from classical Ottoman, Italian, and posibly Cypriot Arabic too. We also have our own unique features that do not fit in any of the above.
The syntax in Cypriot Turkish is quite different to Turkish. Below is a list of a common impersonal expression that is followed by the present subjunctive in Kibrislica.
KIBRISLICA
Example: Lazim vereyim gene. = It is necessary that I give it to him / her.
EXPRESSION + VERB (Pr Sub) + OBJECT as in Indo-European languages.
But in Turkish this is
Ona vermek lazim = (same translation as above)
OBJECT + VERB (infinitive)+ EXPRESSION |
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Birkibrisli
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Me? I never had problems with any Turks, be it from Turkey or Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus because I make sure they know I am as Turkish they are. You on the other hand try to hide your Turkishness and that is why people do not like about you and look down to you. Try changing your attitude and you might get people to like you.
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How do you know they are not laughing behind your back,Eric Dayi?
People who want to be something else than what they are are usually figures of fun.World comedy is full of famous examples of people trying to pretend they are something else.
I have no problem with my identity.I am a Turkish Cypriot who is an Australian citizen.I never had Turkish citizenship,and never thought of myself just a Turk,because I am not.And I detest all kinds of pretense,especially the kind which has cost me my homeland.
Anladiniz mi yoksa bir daha anlatayim mi,Sayin Eric Dayi??? |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| Quote: |
Me? I never had problems with any Turks, be it from Turkey or Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus because I make sure they know I am as Turkish they are. You on the other hand try to hide your Turkishness and that is why people do not like about you and look down to you. Try changing your attitude and you might get people to like you.
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How do you know they are not laughing behind your back,Eric Dayi?
People who want to be something else than what they are are usually figures of fun.World comedy is full of famous examples of people trying to pretend they are something else.
I have no problem with my identity.I am a Turkish Cypriot who is an Australian citizen.I never had Turkish citizenship,and never thought of myself just a Turk,because I am not.And I detest all kinds of pretense,especially the kind which has cost me my homeland.
Anladiniz mi yoksa bir daha anlatayim mi,Sayin Eric Dayi??? |
Hade bakalim! bosh ver, ikiniz gavga etme! (Dont argue!)
Keep the discussing going on Kibrislica! maybe we should ask that this thread be split, so we can go into greater depth on the subject of Kibrislica. |
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Birkibrisli
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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| Bullika wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I also know we have a lot of words from Italian which might be from the Roman times."Sakko,potin, kundura,baston..." and a host of other words not heard of in Turkey are from italian i think.It would be interesting if these are also used by the Greek Cypriots,don't you think???
: |
No, not if we use this to divert attention from Cypriot Turkish to Cypriot Greek. Cypriot Greek has whole books written about it. Cypriot Turkish is neglected therefore we have to do what the Greek Cypriots do and give it undivided attention.
Besides, there is more to Cypriot Turkish than Greek influences. We have Eski Anadolu Turkce (Old Anatolian Turkish) influences, influences from classical Ottoman, Italian, and posibly Cypriot Arabic too. We also have our own unique features that do not fit in any of the above.
The syntax in Cypriot Turkish is quite different to Turkish. Below is a list of a common impersonal expression that is followed by the present subjunctive in Kibrislica.
KIBRISLICA
Example: Lazim vereyim gene. = It is necessary that I give it to him / her.
EXPRESSION + VERB (Pr Sub) + OBJECT as in Indo-European languages.
But in Turkish this is
Ona vermek lazim = (same translation as above)
OBJECT + VERB (infinitive)+ EXPRESSION |
I admire your zealous determination to keep the focus on Cypriotturkish,Memo.we can do that if you like,but I don't think in the long run we can ignore Cypriotgreek and its effects on Cypriotturkish and vice versa.And make no mistake about it, we have had a lot of influence and effect on the way Cypriotgreek is spoken.After the study on Cypriot Turkish perhaps one can do a comperative study on both languages.
In the above example 'gene" should be "genne" IMO.
Because 'gene' is also used for "yine"(again).Just to remove the confusion.
But yes,the syntax is fascinating...and it is soooo flexible.You can find Cypriotturks saying "lazim genne vereyim" or"genne vermem lazim" or even 'vermem lazim genne',just as often and just as correctly.Fascinating.
Cypriot Turkish is probably the most poetic language on earth. |
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Bullika
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| Bullika wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I also know we have a lot of words from Italian which might be from the Roman times."Sakko,potin, kundura,baston..." and a host of other words not heard of in Turkey are from italian i think.It would be interesting if these are also used by the Greek Cypriots,don't you think???
: |
No, not if we use this to divert attention from Cypriot Turkish to Cypriot Greek. Cypriot Greek has whole books written about it. Cypriot Turkish is neglected therefore we have to do what the Greek Cypriots do and give it undivided attention.
Besides, there is more to Cypriot Turkish than Greek influences. We have Eski Anadolu Turkce (Old Anatolian Turkish) influences, influences from classical Ottoman, Italian, and posibly Cypriot Arabic too. We also have our own unique features that do not fit in any of the above.
The syntax in Cypriot Turkish is quite different to Turkish. Below is a list of a common impersonal expression that is followed by the present subjunctive in Kibrislica.
KIBRISLICA
Example: Lazim vereyim gene. = It is necessary that I give it to him / her.
EXPRESSION + VERB (Pr Sub) + OBJECT as in Indo-European languages.
But in Turkish this is
Ona vermek lazim = (same translation as above)
OBJECT + VERB (infinitive)+ EXPRESSION |
I admire your zealous determination to keep the focus on Cypriotturkish,Memo.we can do that if you like,but I don't think in the long run we can ignore Cypriotgreek and its effects on Cypriotturkish and vice versa.And make no mistake about it, we have had a lot of influence and effect on the way Cypriotgreek is spoken.After the study on Cypriot Turkish perhaps one can do a comperative study on both languages.
In the above example 'gene" should be "genne" IMO.
Because 'gene' is also used for "yine"(again).Just to remove the confusion.
But yes,the syntax is fascinating...and it is soooo flexible.You can find Cypriotturks saying "lazim genne vereyim" or"genne vermem lazim" or even 'vermem lazim genne',just as often and just as correctly.Fascinating.
Cypriot Turkish is probably the most poetic language on earth. |
We'll leave Cypriot Greek to the Greek speakers. As Turkologists, we can only focus on Cypriot Turkish. Sure they are linked but each has its own integrity too.
Good point on 'Genne'. 'Genne' comes from Eski Anadolu Turkce, 'Kendinü', at a time before labial harmonisation had developed. If you read Dede Korkut you can see this. Kendinü in the times of Old Anatolian Turkish (OAT) would have been used in the same way as it is today in Cypriot Turkish.
Today 'Kendinü' has gone through vowel harmonisation in Turkish and appears as 'Kendini' whilst in Kibrislica, it is subjected to elision and sound change K > G.
They are however semantically different. In other words it is not used in Turkish as it is in Kibrislica. The meaning of Genne in Kibrislica s closer to Kendinü (OAT) than it is to Kendini (modern Turkish)
We use 'Genne', where as Turks and Azeris would use 'Ona' as the Dative -Indirect object. |
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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| Bullika wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| Bullika wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I also know we have a lot of words from Italian which might be from the Roman times."Sakko,potin, kundura,baston..." and a host of other words not heard of in Turkey are from italian i think.It would be interesting if these are also used by the Greek Cypriots,don't you think???
: |
No, not if we use this to divert attention from Cypriot Turkish to Cypriot Greek. Cypriot Greek has whole books written about it. Cypriot Turkish is neglected therefore we have to do what the Greek Cypriots do and give it undivided attention.
Besides, there is more to Cypriot Turkish than Greek influences. We have Eski Anadolu Turkce (Old Anatolian Turkish) influences, influences from classical Ottoman, Italian, and posibly Cypriot Arabic too. We also have our own unique features that do not fit in any of the above.
The syntax in Cypriot Turkish is quite different to Turkish. Below is a list of a common impersonal expression that is followed by the present subjunctive in Kibrislica.
KIBRISLICA
Example: Lazim vereyim gene. = It is necessary that I give it to him / her.
EXPRESSION + VERB (Pr Sub) + OBJECT as in Indo-European languages.
But in Turkish this is
Ona vermek lazim = (same translation as above)
OBJECT + VERB (infinitive)+ EXPRESSION |
I admire your zealous determination to keep the focus on Cypriotturkish,Memo.we can do that if you like,but I don't think in the long run we can ignore Cypriotgreek and its effects on Cypriotturkish and vice versa.And make no mistake about it, we have had a lot of influence and effect on the way Cypriotgreek is spoken.After the study on Cypriot Turkish perhaps one can do a comperative study on both languages.
In the above example 'gene" should be "genne" IMO.
Because 'gene' is also used for "yine"(again).Just to remove the confusion.
But yes,the syntax is fascinating...and it is soooo flexible.You can find Cypriotturks saying "lazim genne vereyim" or"genne vermem lazim" or even 'vermem lazim genne',just as often and just as correctly.Fascinating.
Cypriot Turkish is probably the most poetic language on earth. |
We'll leave Cypriot Greek to the Greek speakers. As Turkologists, we can only focus on Cypriot Turkish. Sure they are linked but each has its own integrity too.
Good point on 'Genne'. 'Genne' comes from Eski Anadolu Turkce, 'Kendinü', at a time before vowel harmonisation had developed in the Turkish language. If you read Dede Korkut you can see this quite clearly. Kendinü in the times of Old Anatolian Turkish (OAT) would have been used in the same way as it is today in Cypriot Turkish.
Today 'Kendinü' has gone through vowel harmonisation in Turkish and appears as 'Kendini' whilst in Kibrislica, it is subjected to elision and sound change K > G.
They are however semantically different. In other words it is not used in Turkish as it is in Kibrislica. The meaning of Genne in Kibrislica s closer to Kendinü (OAT) than it is to Kendini (modern Turkish)
We use 'Genne', where as Turks and Azeris would use 'Ona' as the Dative -Indirect object. |
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Dhavlos
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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just to add my two cents...there are probably a lot of oral similarities between kibriaka and kibrizlija....they probably have similar sounds that are not from teh mainlands.
eg, greek --> cypriot
k --> g or like french j, p --> b, x(soft ch sound) --> h, we also have ch and sh....
i can imagine that some sounds in cypriotturkish do the same thing? eg, having a j sound or a b sound instead of p? in that sense it would show a similarity with kibriaka.
Also i can imagine that a lot of words are teh same...like kori etc...memo, your website has many words that are like kibriaka.
This is interesting guys! |
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Birkibrisli
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Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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Dhavlos,
You are absolutely right.In Cypriotturkish too the hard consonants are softened so:
K becomes g (kardesh becomes gardash,also notice that the "e" became 'a" to comply with the vowel harmony rule which seems to be abandoned in turkey)
t becomes d (tomates becomes domates)
also as I said earlier the "n" sometimes becomes "m" and sometimes "hard g" (nuska becomes muska,sana becomes saga)...
I wonder what the origins of this softening is,since it is with both languages it must have a common source...FAscinating  |
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Dhavlos
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this is really interesting stuff, yes....
there are also words that are from italian and turkish in greek too...like pomilori instead of domada (tomato)however, like cypriot turkish, these arebeing lost due to the teaching of 'officail' greek.
Also there is the idea in cyprus that if speak 'horiatika(transl. village speak)' - 'kibriaka', then you are not 'educated'. Especially if you use old words. People do speak kibriaka to each other, but for us in the diaspora, our kibriaka is much older, from the 60s and before, so it seen as even less educated. |
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