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Alexios
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 981
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I haven't written on this site for some time. In fact i haven't written to any site for a long time. I guess i am disappointed about progress made towards solving the Cyprus problem and more disappointed about people's expectations about it, on both sides of the divide. I would not be so dosappointed if these expectations were based on a logical evaluation of the progress made so far. My disappointment however is made all that bigger because , usually, Cypriots have a tendency to express their opposition to something by stating their disappointment over progress made towards achieving it. I am happy the way things are and don't wish to change anything, so i am disappointed if efforts to change this situation is not made so to speak...
To the point however, and to yesterday's real fiasco at the Limnitis check point. What happened then?
It appears that the build up leading to the planned pilgrimage to St Mamas monastery in Morphou left a lot to be desired. On the one hand, Iacovou says that it was agreed behind the scenes that the 650 or so people who wished to cross the check point at Limnitis, would not be subjected to tight scrutinization. Lists were prepared and no close ID checks would be made. The T/C side say that lists were wrong,incomplete,etc etc. So for example if i was one of the pilgrims and my name on the list appeared as Alexios Alexiou but on my ID the proper full grrek name Alexandros Alexiou appeared, then i would have a problem! According to the people themselves, the first 2 buses that attempted to cross were subjected to 2 whole hours of security checks! So the people got fed, up, angry and frustrated and decided themselves to turn back.Either Iacovou is lying about the agreements made "behind the scenes", or the police knew nothing about these agreements. There is also a possiblity that the Police did know about them but decided to ignore them....
The fact remains that a confidence building measure has turned into a confidence breakdown measure!!! I cannot but feel that the Turkish Cypriot side is completely inexcusable this time. Even if there were mistakes etc on the lists provided, even if somehow not everything agreed was followed, someone at high authority should have the guts to allow this trip with as few formalities as possible. What would you answer for example to the fact that not long ago, over 2.000 T/Cs crossed the Greek checkpoint to take part in the annual Kokkina celebrations without any formalities whatsoever??! So i wonder who actually has control of things in the North..or should i not wonder..?
The worse thing is, that such behaviour gives food to the nationalists on this side to say look..we told you so..the Turks cannot be trusted. If they went back on a small agreement like this, how can they be trusted over a final, comprehensive agreement?? The Archbishop is laughing behind his beard...A few days ago he stated that the Limnitis check point will never be opened...to the satisfaction of the wolves on both sides.. |
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moonskin
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 529
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Alexios,
| Quote: |
| Either Iacovou is lying about the agreements made "behind the scenes", or the police knew nothing about these agreements. There is also a possiblity that the Police did know about them but decided to ignore them.... |
If you are of the opinion that we, the Turkish Cypriots, can collaborate and act in a unified way or, you are of the opinion that Talat has the last say on everything that happens in north Cyprus, than you are kind of out of the loop my friend.
Especially, if we consider that the police forces in north Cyprus is, by our constitution, under the control of Turkish army; Talat's position on such matters that are closely related with the police forces can be understood more clearly. Don't expect Talat to come out and publicly or privately declare that he can't control the police.
There will always be people, like you have given examples for the south, who are trying to stop Cyprus becoming a normal country. They will try to use every possible opportunity to derail the reunification process. We can't get rid of them. We have to fight them. We will keep doing the best we can to reach the only logical, reasonable and civilised solution, which is the reunification of this country by protecting the human rights of both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots.
When the ECJ ruling was announced, Talat canceled the meeting as well, remember? I don't take this event very seriously. Yes, it is a fiasco but the reality is that the Cyprus problem is full of huge fiascos anyway!
In the big picture, we have to watch Turkey very carefully. There are huge changes that are taking place in Turkey currently. Changes that anybody would laugh at your face if told them 5 years ago. Turkey has finally come to the point where they realised that the future of Turkey can not be very bright, unless they solved their disputes internally and externally. They realised that peace and trust is the only way forward.
All I am trying to state is this: There will be serious developments in the Cyprus problem by the end of current negotiations. And this fiasco ain't the end. This is my belief. However, it is based not on my desires, but on logic and the fact that we don't have a negotiator like Denktas, you don't have a negotiator like Papadopoulos and Turkey doesn't have a prime minister like in the old days.
Last edited by moonskin on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Alexios
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 981
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Thank you for the response Moonskin.
I wish people in the south would view the matter the same way as you. Unfortunately they don't. Nor do they understand the complex current political situation in Turkey, or Turkish politics at all for that matter.
I agree absolutely that events like this should not make us lose our focus. But we all need to understand that ordinary events really affect ordinary people deeply. Especially when the media give such proportions to them.
There are examples of this in the south ofcourse having the opposite effect in the North. |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1244
Location: Nicosia
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Nice to see old friends back, especially Alexios whom I haven't seen for a while. I fully understand your frustration Alexios and I also endorse what moonskin is saying. "Watch Turkey" makes a lot of sense and hopefully we will not make the same mistake we made in 2003 when we were convinced by the late Papadopoulos and his rejectionist friends that everything had to do with a communications ploy. A clear understanding of the unfolding events in Turkey (Armenian issue, Kurdish issue etc) will let us formulate policies which will help the unification process.
Dark forces on both sides are gathering their strength to see off another effort to unify our country. This time round we should stand up to them and make ourselves count. Let us not allow orchestrated hiccups put us off the noble aim of uniting our country. |
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repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
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| ...i too believe that there are many changes that must be made in our thinking so that the public's agenda can include a consideration for Cyprus, rather than its "Greekness" or "Turkishness". All Cypriots must get there heads around the fear they have of its politics (Turkey) and consider the benefit of allowing it as a State to arbitrate on the integrity of the Principals we stand for. if as a People we stand for an equality that is pleasing to us as Individuals because it defends our equality and our liberty, Turkey will not refuse their recognition. any seeming bias will cause the tragic impasse to continue. |
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Alexios
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 981
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My dearest friends.
I agree absolutely with you. But,it is easy for a group of well educated and progressive people who have atleast some understanding of Turkish politics to agree amongst themselves! I had however great difficulty and i think at the end i failed miserably to explain to my 78 year old motherinlaw how things have maybe gone wrong with the pilgrimage. She kept asking the same question. WE let them go to Kokkina without any formalities, why couln't THEY allow us?? You see , to most ordinary people the case is one between what THEY do and what WE do, not what US can do together, coupled with the conviction that WE do everything right and THEY do everything wrong!!
I believe the two current leaders have all the good intentions to solve the Cyprus problem and they do realize that mutual concessions have to be made in that direction. However, they are both hindered by internal politics, they are afraid to speak publicly on the need to make such concessions and they feel, maybe rightly so, that they will not have the necessary popular support to proceed as they would like to. Talat, in addition is furthered hindered by the need to agree almost everything with Turkey. So they try to keep a balance which will keep them in power so that atleast they can continue their efforts. |
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moonskin
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 529
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| Alexios wrote: |
My dearest friends.
I agree absolutely with you. But,it is easy for a group of well educated and progressive people who have atleast some understanding of Turkish politics to agree amongst themselves! I had however great difficulty and i think at the end i failed miserably to explain to my 78 year old motherinlaw how things have maybe gone wrong with the pilgrimage. She kept asking the same question. WE let them go to Kokkina without any formalities, why couln't THEY allow us?? You see , to most ordinary people the case is one between what THEY do and what WE do, not what US can do together, coupled with the conviction that WE do everything right and THEY do everything wrong!!
I believe the two current leaders have all the good intentions to solve the Cyprus problem and they do realize that mutual concessions have to be made in that direction. However, they are both hindered by internal politics, they are afraid to speak publicly on the need to make such concessions and they feel, maybe rightly so, that they will not have the necessary popular support to proceed as they would like to. Talat, in addition is furthered hindered by the need to agree almost everything with Turkey. So they try to keep a balance which will keep them in power so that atleast they can continue their efforts. |
Alexios,
I do not have any problems to understand to what extend the effects of such events can grow up to. I completely understand what you are saying. I am not denying the fact that ordinary people always get opinionated by making shallow, short-sighted observations (I don't mean to sound derogatory here, but the matter of fact is that this is the case in every country when masses are considered as a whole).
However, as a part of my understanding, I also see that such simple -and in most cases, even baseless- opinions also happen to get forgotten very easily. In other words, I do not think that the opinion of the Greek Cypriot public will change dramatically after this event. The opinions of the public is like a wavy sea. Sometimes it goes up and sometimes it comes down. But it remains at an average level in general.
Again, I apologise if I sound derogatory, but the fact is that the opinion of the public is useless, in the exception of when they are required to vote and decide something. But in those cases, the leaders lead, and an opinion is formed. At those times, people look at what their leaders are saying and they have already forgotten about such small events in the past.
I am afraid we have to live with this, just like anywhere else on the planet. I remember how absurdly the opinion of the American public was formed by their corporate media and the Bush administration after the occupation of Iraq and just before Bush was standing for a second term. It was unbelievable! The opinion of the American public was basically built on lies and manipulation of the facts, plus some racism.
On another note, I was listening Hasan Kahvecioğlu on the radio the other day and he shared the information he gathered on this event with us. Apparently, there were people on the bus who were not in the list. This was for 13 people in the first two buses (27 buses were expected). Police told them that those 13 people can not pass and the rest of the people protested that either they go altogether or they don't go at all. The police did not change its opinion and neither did the Greek Cypriots. So, to me it sounds like the problem is not with long security checks but with the existence of some people on the buses who were not enlisted.
Of course, the police could have written their names and ids down, extending the list by 13 people and the problem would have been solved but as I mentioned above, there was a lack of good intentions from certain sides. |
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moonskin
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 529
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1244
Location: Nicosia
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There are more revelations in "Politis" today and "Alitheia" newspapers regarding the pilgrimage fiasco. Apparently those that reject solution on both sides conspired to derail the visit. The Limnitis mukhtar Michaelides, Edek's Omirou and ANT1's Papaphilippou organised the chaos that led to the abandonment of the trip. They were ably aided by Eroglu, Volkan and the army.
Their aim was to deal a nasty blow at the ongoing talks. Unfortunately Christofias took the bait.
It is now more than clear that Christofias cannot solve the problem with EDEK and DIKO. If he sincerely wants to have a fighting chance at solution, he must look towards Anastasiades. There is no other way. |
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repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
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the difficulty lies in the power of the occupying force, the Turkish Army. Talat may represent a population as a political body, however, it is subject to the designs of the Turkish State. Nothing that it does is a reflection of will by Cypriots who are Turcophone; neither can it serve this constituency with good government. This incident makes clear that the Police do not get their direction from the civil authorities; it also demonstrates that this civil authority chooses to remain, as such, a secondary force, for now.
On the other hand, Greek Cypriots must recognise that there are hearts and minds to win regardless, including the settlers who will sway any vote to come where Cypriots will have, as a whole, an opportunity to express themselves. Therefore, it is necessary for these two leaderships to do everything in their powers to be as transparent as possible as and for Cypriots, (avoiding agreements such as this one, having the potential to end as a fiasco) which are done out of the public eye.
...also, new and quite different proposals are necessary, which benefit a Cypriot population as a whole, rather than the populations which they seemingly represent. Enclaves to this effect are not a bad idea, defining Bizonality in a manner where there are (many) frontiers with no border, allowing for the repopulation of many displaced as communities, Grecophone and Turcophone, demonstrating our commitment to the Principal of Bicommunality (one State as well as National Assemblies) without having to tear forever the island in two. |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1244
Location: Nicosia
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It is known that the police force is under the control of the army. I agree about the tasks facing the two leaders but both, Talat and Christofias have to fend off their adversaries. Talat has to confront the grey wolves of Denktash and Eroglu but Christofias needs to contain his so called partners in government who are against solution in the form of bizonal, bicommunal federation with political equality of the Turkish Cypriots.
We can all now see now that it is either a solution as such or partition, with the blessing of the international community. |
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brother
Warnings : 3
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 8938
Location: London/Cyprus
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Hello my friends, its been a while since i have frequented our forum but i wanted to say my 2 pence worth 
The bitter truth of the matter is that this fiasco happened before the pilgrims even arrived at the "border" you see the Turkish Cypriot police/officials makes a huge issue of registering everything in and out as i have found when i have crossed south but never been pulled up by the Greek Cypriot police/official to check my documents or even ask where im going....
Going to the pilgrims it only took one high ranking hardline person to juggle the shifts of some police/officials and tell them to make it 'uncomfortable' to the point the people would resign to their fate and leave at their own behest.
Whatever the political situation in Turkey may be this is Cyprus and this situation was disgusting at best and shows the ill nature and feeling that still exists and which continually posions the water as such.
The fact that 2000 Turkish Cypriot were allowed easily to cross and make their visit if in only a small way does show much more tolerance and respect for the people without making them the toys and discussion of the hardliners and media.
My friends we should all acknowledge the facts and that was the Greek Cypriot pilgrims were ill treated, shown no tolerance or respect..... shame on us. |
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