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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Then why the hell do you mention the pre 74 events it when there is a comparison of Kosovo with Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus??? |
To make the point that recognition or not is not simply a function of the moral application of international law and point out that the Republic of Cyprus assertions that this should be the only principal involved sound hollow to Turkish Cypriot when there is no interest in the Republic of Cyprus to look at their own recognition in this manner.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| We somewhat agree in many things, I also say that in 74 it was the obligation of Turkey to intervene and re-establish constitutional order, but it failed to do so. |
Surely one has to look at why it failed. Certainly the easy answer is 'because it did not want a restoration of the consitutional order because Turkish Cypriot and Turkey just weanted to steal from Greek Cypriot'. The much harder answer involves looking at how and why the consitutional order had failed and how it could be resotred given the hsitory of that failure and the failure of attempts to restore it short of military action. In my opinion one has to ask what realistic options did Turkey have to resotre that order.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Therefore the declaration of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is violating internationally agreed principles. |
Yes it is.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Why your reply was, "but you did this in 64"? So what, the legality of Republic of Cyprus is a separate issue and we are discussing it because you refused to accept the illegal status of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. |
I do not refuse to accept that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is considered internationaly as 'illegal' as a sovreign state. That is just a fact and to deny it would be to deny plain facts. The point I am making is that Turkish Cypriot do not have the same faith or beleif in 'international law' as others do, having seen 'international law' legitimise a post 64 Republic of Cyprus government. Given what happend before 74 Turkish Cypriot, rightly or wrongly, felt that international law had failed them and failed to protect their rights and that is why options outside of it were all that was left.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| It is ok to understand why we have the status quo, but that doesn't make the occupation of the North of Cyprus legitimate. |
I do not say understanding why we have the status quo today legitimises the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus , not legally or morally. I do say you can not understand why Turkish Cypriot went down this 'illegal route' without understanding what happened pre 74. I also say that for Turkish Cypriot we know that this international determination that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is illegal (and the Republic of Cyprus legal) is less to do with moral interpretations of international law and more to do with the self interests of powerful states and as such these sefl interest can and do change.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| And by the way it is not an all Greek Cypriot run Republic of Cyprus as you claim, there are other minorities in the government. The leader of DIKO the third largest political party, Mr Karoyian is not Greek and soon he might even become the president of parliament. |
Under the 60's consitution there are two communites in the Republic of Cyprus and several minorites. Consitutionaly each of the minority groups were free to choose whihc of the two communites they would be included within. Consitutionaly the minorites chose to be recognised as a part of the Greek Cypriot community. From 64 onwards then the Republic of Cyprus has been solely Greek Cypriot community run in this consitutional sense as each of the minority communites are part of the Greek Cypriot comunity in this reagrd. If one of the minority communites had chosen to be part of the Turkish Cypriot community consitutionaly and respresented as such and still continued to be in the Republic of Cyprus government as per the 60 consitution (ie with seperate electrol role, Vice president, sperate members of house etc etc) then the argument that the Republic of Cyprus is not all Greek Cypriot run post 64 would be true. This did not happen. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2875
Location: Australia
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| AND Kurdistan in a COUPLE of Weeks! cheers! |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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[quote="Mete"] Do you remember the events that I think happened in 1999? I remember watching on TV how Albanians were leaving Kosovo in thousands because they were scared for their lives. Of course, a military offensive should be the last option but I don't think military offensive was inappropriate in this case. It was definetely not unethical because the goal of the operation was not to invade Kosovo or harass Serbs but simply restore peace in Kosovo and that did happen.
| Quote: |
Mete, unfortunately the NATO forces did not intervene for humanitarian reasons. I am not saying the goal was to harass Serbs but to me killing and harrasing Serbs in return for "peace" is non sense. There was no need for unreasonable damage, other than what was necessary to achieve the goals of the operation and you fight only against military target. That did not happen in Serbia. Why NATO intervened? I can guess but I don't know, but what I certainly know is that they did not give a damn about peace and stability in the region.
| mete wrote: |
| Sorry but you are misinformed. Not all of those 78 people were elected representatives of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Actually most of them were probably willing to give up on Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus altogether but they were rejected by the Greek Cypriot higher court for other reasons and not for the reason of keeping their rights in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. |
ok then please tell me why the high court of Cyprus rejected Turkish Cypriots to return to their seats if you are better informed.
| Mete wrote: |
| She could not claim her constitutional right as a Turkish Cypriot. She did not run in the elections as a Turkish Cypriot (i.e. run in a seperate Turkish Cypriot list and get votes from Turkish Cypriots seperately from Greek Cypriots) but she was simply allowed to enlist in the Greek Cypriot list. As you can imagine, this is barely claiming Turkish Cypriot constitutional rights in the Republic of Cyprus, don't you agree? |
No I don't agree. It shows that the Republic of Cyprus has nothing against Turkish Cypriots and giving them back their constitutional rights, the problem (from the government's point of view) is that while there is occupation of 1/3 of Cyprus there are some conditions on how Turkish Cypriots can claim their rights. I don't agree with that but I can understand it. Why? Because the insentives for such move might not for genuine reasons. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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| Kosovo was the final stage in the disintegration of Yugoslavia. People should stop drawing non-existent parallels with other separatist movements because there are none. Kosovo's independence is unlikely to have any repercussions on Northern Cyprus's nor Karabkh's drive for independence. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| bg_turk wrote: |
| Kosovo was the final stage in the disintegration of Yugoslavia. People should stop drawing non-existent parallels with other separatist movements because there are none. |
well its not "people".
it is the "other separatist moovements" themselves.... and well.... one of the superpowers. 
and leaving cyprus aside for a minute.
what should concern the world is not so much the repercussions in cyprus, but the repercussions in the Balkans themselves....
there is nothing that can guarantee that this is the "final stage" of yugoslavia....
who knows ?
it might be a first step in a renewed attempt to redraw borders... |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1683
Location: Canada
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| ...indeed, I still remember the "Kosovar" fighters wearing the Albanian flag as a patch on their fatigues. splitting people along ethnic lines is a threat because it invites more splitting on ethnic lines. "nation building" by superpowers is just another form of imperialism without the support of the rest of Mankind. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
well its not "people".
it is the "other separatist moovements" themselves.... and well.... one of the superpowers.
and leaving cyprus aside for a minute.
what should concern the world is not so much the repercussions in cyprus, but the repercussions in the Balkans themselves....
there is nothing that can guarantee that this is the "final stage" of yugoslavia....
who knows ?
it might be a first step in a renewed attempt to redraw borders... |
It will be the first step of an oppressed people to live as a free people, and it will be an example to any oppressor country for what may happen with them if they continue on that path.
After all Milosevic did to them, Kosovars deserved their independence. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1683
Location: Canada
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...i agree, they deserve Justice, but i don't think this is what they are getting.
this "independance" does nothing to end the thinking which brought on so much misery. it serves the specific interests of the interlocutors, which makes this conclusion suspect. and it does not make the serbs, or the kosovars, better people either. |
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Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
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The above picture of a 'Kosovar' boy speaks by itself.
The creation of a pseudo state called Kosovo makes no sense. Kosovo is a region populated mostly by Albanians. Kosovars are not an ethnicity and hence do not deserve their own separate country. If NATO wanted to mete out 'justice', they should have allowed Albania to annex Kosovo. But that wouldn't be proper now would it? Oh no, for in the 21st century 'self-determination' and 'independence' sounds so much better than annexation.
There are no Kosovars, there are Serbs and Albanians. There is no state called Kosovo, there is Albania and Serbia. This unilateral declaration will simply create another failed state black hole in the nether regions of Europe that will be entirely funded by EU taxpayer money. I hope Turkey joins soon, at least the proportion from my taxes will get reduced.
Just a note: Now that Kosovo 'exists', why doesn't the USA deploy its 'missile shield' in Kosovo? Actually I can see the USA and NATO in general Guantanamising that place since it is not bound by the UN charter or any international treaties and agreements. Geneva convention? Bah.. Conventional Weapons in Europe Treaty? Meh.. Inviolability of diplomatic missions? HAHAHA.. what next.
Kosovo, the Wild Wild South East of Europe where anything goes and the local sheriff is NATO. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| bg_turk wrote: |
It will be the first step of an oppressed people to live as a free people, and it will be an example to any oppressor country for what may happen with them if they continue on that path.
After all Milosevic did to them, Kosovars deserved their independence. |
I disagree....
anyway....
I hope you have the same opinion when other oppressed people, follow the suit in those countries you happen to like |
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moonskin
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 515
Location: Freiburg, Germany
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| Dream_Merchant wrote: |
The creation of a pseudo state called Kosovo makes no sense. Kosovo is a region populated mostly by Albanians. Kosovars are not an ethnicity and hence do not deserve their own separate country. |
Neither do you my friend!  |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1683
Location: Canada
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DM, good post, i understand you perfectly well.
...indeed, i remember the albanian flags stiched as patches on their fatigues. the kosovars were a people before they joined to make the serbia we knew with the bosnians...but, as you say they are albanian by etnicity.
perhaps we can say of Cyprus that it will be cut off from Turkey, the brutal aggressor, made independant, instead of joined with Greece.
...how's that for hopeful? |
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Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
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| moonskin wrote: |
| Dream_Merchant wrote: |
The creation of a pseudo state called Kosovo makes no sense. Kosovo is a region populated mostly by Albanians. Kosovars are not an ethnicity and hence do not deserve their own separate country. |
Neither do you my friend! |
My friend,
Let me know what you are unable to understand in the above statement and I will try to explain it to you in terms that may be easier for you to grasp. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| bg_turk wrote: |
| Kosovo was the final stage in the disintegration of Yugoslavia. People should stop drawing non-existent parallels with other separatist movements because there are none. Kosovo's independence is unlikely to have any repercussions on Northern Cyprus's nor Karabkh's drive for independence. |
By that logic, Turkey should split up in 72 parts because there are 72 oppressed minorities within Turkey!!! Greece should be split in 5-6 (Greeks, Albanians, Turks, Roma, Blacks and other) and Cyprus also in 5-6 (Greek Cypriots, Indians/Pakistanis/Sri Lankese/Phillipino, the Eastern European, Turkish Cypriots, Turkish settlers and the just Cypriot group) the others in Cyprus are not oppressed. |
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moonskin
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 515
Location: Freiburg, Germany
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| Dream_Merchant wrote: |
| ...and I will try to explain it to you in terms that may be easier for you to grasp. |
DM,
I was just wondering one thing...Is there a post, just a single post, where you are not trying so hard to prove us that you are the smartest guy here and all the rest of us are idiots? Is there such a post which does not include such an attitude by you? Can you find one?
Are you aware how repulsive it is to read your posts with this behavior?
Why don't you just take it easy buddy? I don't know what kind of insecurity crisis you are going though, what kind of life you had so that you feel like you have to prove yourself constantly to the people around you, but most members on this forum are very nice people who I know personally, and I can guarantee you that nobody thinks that you are a stupid moron or something like that. So just stop trying so hard to try to proving otherwise. Because unless you stop, this is exactly what we are going to start thinking about you. Just relax man and give us a fucking break! |
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