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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| pg wrote: |
When ever a "one person one vote" system is used it always mean a decision is "imposed against the will" of those that did not agree. When such decisions cause an irreversible change then it is commonly accepted that the vote needs a bit more than 50% of the votes - meaning a bit more than the "one person one vote" principle needs to be applied.
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I do not know how many times I can explain my position on this.
When the issue being decided is one of 'personal choice' then one person one vote works as a means of finding a maximal consensus / desire of a group. However when the way you decide to vote is based on an unchanging and unchangeable attribute - like ethnic group / community , then what it represents is not free will of individuals so much as the right of one community to impose community desires on the other against their will.
| pg wrote: |
At the same time, how do you erolz judge if an enough percentage of the Greek Cypriot community "accept and understand" the faults of the past? That calls for a call of judgement. What I wonder is when you will decide it is good enough for you to move on. |
I make no such judgment from the posts on the forum. I said explicitly to stavrizatz individually that what he could do as an individual was accept that enosis required the imposition of Greek Cypriot will on the Turkish Cypriot community.
As far as judging the Greek Cypriot community in general, I will be convinced that they accept this and my concerns that arise from it when they propose a solution that addresses these concerns. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| It is the use of the word imposition, if you so like, that implies that you regard it as unethical and illegitimate pursue, and I have no doubt about it. |
Imposition does not imply unethical or illegal per se. Laws impose things on individuals - but I do not consider these unethical or illegitimate by the very nature they impose.
| Kifeas wrote: |
By using the word imposition, you are trying to direct your readers to assume that it was something unconventional, undemocratic and unethical, simply because by its nature the word imposition carries a negative connotation. |
The imposition of Greek Cypriot will on the Turkish Cypriot community most certainly had a negative impact on the Turkish Cypriot community - so of course stating the truth carries a negative connotation. Law imposes on the free will of individuals and this imposition IS negative to those imposed on. However the negatives of such an imposition are balanced by the general good that such an imposition also brings.
We COULD have a sensible discussion about if the imposition of Greek Cypriot will on Turkish Cypriot in their shared homeland brings more benefits to all than the negative aspects of such an imposition - but only if you can accept the reality of the imposition. No such discussion is possible if you continue to insist that such an imposition is NOT an imposition or if it is it has no negative impact on anyone.
| Kifeas wrote: |
In such a case, you should also regard the will of the majority of the people in a country, not to have a conservative government but instead a socialist one, as an imposition of those wishing one thing onto those wishing another, in their shared homeland. |
Sigh. Deciding if you want a socialist or a conservative government is a matter of personal choice. You can change your mind and it is an issue of personal preferance. Desire for enois was not a matter of personal choice (that is changing and flexible) but a function of what ethnic group you belonged to. In short it was not a matter of personal will but communal one - and that is why there is a valid basis to argue that one person one vote is not sufficient in such cases. It is not sufficient in such cases because in effect what it says is that whenever Greek Cypriot wants something different in CYprus to Turkish Cypriot - BECAUSE they are Greek Cypriot and not Turkish Cypriot, then Greek Cypriot will ALWAYS get their desire and Turkish Cypriot will NEVER get theirs. You may not see any problem with this but I do.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Yet, I have never heard the use of the word imposition to be use by the conservatives in the UK, for example, when they lost elections in favor of the labors, or vise versa. I never thought of democracy to be all about imposition of a majority over a minority, in its shared homeland; but instead I only hear about the obligation of the minority to respect the will of the majority (and not to regard it as an imposition,) as well as the obligation of the majority to allow the minority to freely express its views and opinion, and not to assume the right to violate its whatever conventional rights. |
I just do not know how many times I can try and explain my position on this.
Imagine that for biological reasons men were 40% of the population everywhere. Can you not see then how 'one person one vote' would not be 'just' on issues that were solely gender based? Ones where your gender determines if you support something or not and not personal choice? Can you not see how on such issues what one person one vote actually means in effect is that on gender issues females will always impose their will on males and males would never get an effective voice or say in such issues ? |
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Get Real!
Warnings : 3
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 325
Location: Nicosia
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Mete…
| Quote: |
| When 80.000 Turkish Cypriots were demonstrating against Denktash… |
The Republic of Cyprus wasted no time in giving its Turkish Cypriot citizens Passports and IDs in a gesture to LEGALLY REAFFAIRM their Cypriot citizenship. This was of PARAMOUNT importance because this would then allow a Turkish Cypriot to move to the South to live and work and get involved in whatever else desired.
There really was no other LEGAL way for the Republic to show this and we can’t expect for the President to grab a loudspeaker and start calling people’s names to cross over. It really was and is up to the individual to take advantage of the state, and to the best of my knowledge there are currently around 5,000 Turkish Cypriots working in the South. Pretty soon many of these will tire of driving back and forth for work and will probably opt for a permanent residence in the South but these things take time because trust building takes time.
As for sharing the Republic there is a democratic system in place where any citizen of Cyprus can slowly but surely get involved but you need to be a citizen here and I can fully understand that. Who would want a Turkish Cypriot minister of the Republic of Cyprus traveling back and forth into the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” acting as a double agent? I for one wouldn’t trust and approve of that.
The Turkish Cypriot community also needs to show some understanding towards the government of the Republic of Cyprus that has 700,000 Greek Cypriot people yelling for their rights such as the return of land, settlers, etc and let us not forget that it has not been decided yet under what arrangements the two communities will live together so don’t expect your community to be handed the reigns of the Republic of Cyprus.
It appears that the Turkish Cypriot community is frustrated because it expects far too much to happen far too soon! These things will take time and everyone needs to realize that these are EXTRAORDINARY circumstances that Cyprus finds herself under. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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Location: Boston
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| Get Real wrote: |
The Republic of Cyprus wasted no time in giving its Turkish Cypriot citizens Passports and IDs in a gesture to LEGALLY REAFFAIRM their Cypriot citizenship. This was of PARAMOUNT importance because this would then allow a Turkish Cypriot to move to the South to live and work and get involved in whatever else desired.
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Sorry but this is something that Republic of Cyprus had to do in order to keep claiming that Republic of Cyprus represents all Cypriots. How could Papadopoulos claim to represent Turkish Cypriots if he didn't allow Turkish Cypriots to obtain Republic of Cyprus IDs and passports? So I don't consider this as a sign of goodwill.
| Get Real wrote: |
Who would want a Turkish Cypriot minister of the Republic of Cyprus traveling back and forth into the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” acting as a double agent? I for one wouldn’t trust and approve of that.
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What's wrong with a Turkish Cypriot participating in the Republic of Cyprus in the south and live in the north? Why can I not run for an office in the south or vote for elections in the south just because I happen to reside in the north?
| Get Real wrote: |
The Turkish Cypriot community also needs to show some understanding towards the government of the Republic of Cyprus that has 700,000 Greek Cypriot people yelling for their rights such as the return of land, settlers, etc and let us not forget that it has not been decided yet under what arrangements the two communities will live together so don’t expect your community to be handed the reigns of the Republic of Cyprus.
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Fair enough but if this is how Greek Cypriots feel, then they should stop telling to the whole world that Republic of Cyprus today represents all Cypriots, including Turkish Cypriots. Instead they try to present Republic of Cyprus as the legitimate government of the island while denying Turkish Cypriots to participate in it. Doesn't look so much different than Turkish Cypriot not respecting Greek Cypriot property rights, does it?
| Get Real wrote: |
It appears that the Turkish Cypriot community is frustrated because it expects far too much to happen far too soon! These things will take time and everyone needs to realize that these are EXTRAORDINARY circumstances that Cyprus finds herself under.
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My friend. It's been a long time since 1974. Don't you think it's about time that some stones are turned? |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 910
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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To mete and Erolz:
You would like me to say that I accept that the percuation of Enosis was a purely greek ambition, which was imposing something against the will of Turkish Cypriots, it was a tyranny, it was the destructiion of Cypriot self-determination, devostation of the Turkish Cypriot community, destruction of the Turkish character of the island and destruction of the Turkish Cypriot culture.
In other words (again I am paraphrasing, be careful) you want me to acknowledge that enosis was not a fair demand.
Well see relevant topic:
Apology and respect |
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Get Real!
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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Mete...
| Quote: |
| Sorry but this is something that Republic of Cyprus had to do in order to keep claiming that Republic of Cyprus represents all Cypriots. How could Papadopoulos claim to represent Turkish Cypriots if he didn't allow Turkish Cypriots to obtain Republic of Cyprus IDs and passports? So I don't consider this as a sign of goodwill. |
It DOES facilitate such a claim but that’s just one way of looking at it; I have seen members of the Turkish Cypriot community lining up in droves at government departments and other places claiming, Healthcare, Unemployment, Child allowance, and various other services, besides passports and such. The Republic of Cyprus DOES provide I assure you and that’s what matters. How else can you judge your allegation?
| Quote: |
| What's wrong with a Turkish Cypriot participating in the Republic of Cyprus in the south and live in the north? Why can I not run for an office in the south or vote for elections in the south just because I happen to reside in the north? |
Ok, well let me put it to you this way: Would it be ok if the Sri Lankan government were to accept that one of their ministers drives off and lives in the Tamil Tiger’s territory each evening? In other words prefers to live with the enemy? Don’t forget that as far as the Republic of Cyprus is concerned the Turkish military is in control of the North.
| Quote: |
Fair enough but if this is how Greek Cypriots feel, then they should stop telling to the whole world that Republic of Cyprus today represents all Cypriots, including Turkish Cypriots.
Instead they try to present Republic of Cyprus as the legitimate government of the island while denying Turkish Cypriots to participate in it. Doesn't look so much different than Turkish Cypriot not respecting Greek Cypriot property rights, does it? |
But as I said, they CAN participate in it if they LIVE IN IT!!! And that makes bloody sense because NOBODY CAN GUARANTEE that a Turkish Cypriot politician of the Republic of Cyprus will not act as a double agent can they? It’s a matter of state security. Politicians SWEAR ALLEGIANCE to Cyprus when they take ministerial positions so how can they then wonder off in the North???
| Quote: |
| My friend. It's been a long time since 1974. Don't you think it's about time that some stones are turned? |
Since 1974 yes, I actually meant since 2004 when the Green Line opened! But what took you guys so long to demonstrate against Denktash? What a waste of three decades! |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
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| Get Real wrote: |
It DOES facilitate such a claim but that’s just one way of looking at it; I have seen members of the Turkish Cypriot community lining up in droves at government departments and other places claiming, Healthcare, Unemployment, Child allowance, and various other services, besides passports and such. The Republic of Cyprus DOES provide I assure you and that’s what matters. How else can you judge your allegation?
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Ok, Republic of Cyprus provides some services to Turkish Cypriots that it would normally have to provide in order to claim that Turkish Cypriots are citizens of the Republic of Cyprus. This is good but it's not enough when Turkish Cypriots are not represented within Republic of Cyprus, OK? And you told me that Turkish Cypriots should not expect representation within the Republic of Cyprus when they hold Greek Cypriot properties in the north and I said, fair enough, in that case, don't tell me that Republic of Cyprus represents Turkish Cypriots just because it provides some services to Turkish Cypriots but it doesn't let Turkish Cypriots to participate in it. This is not that hard to admit.
| Get Real wrote: |
In other words prefers to live with the enemy? Don’t forget that as far as the Republic of Cyprus is concerned the Turkish military is in control of the North.
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I don't see any problem with a Turkish Cypriot living in the north, and participating in the Republic of Cyprus as long as he/she does not participate in T R N C at the same time. I think these are excuses used by the Republic of Cyprus to block Turkish Cypriot participation, that's all.
| Get Real! wrote: |
ut as I said, they CAN participate in it if they LIVE IN IT!!! And that makes bloody sense because NOBODY CAN GUARANTEE that a Turkish Cypriot politician of the Republic of Cyprus will not act as a double agent can they? It’s a matter of state security. Politicians SWEAR ALLEGIANCE to Cyprus when they take ministerial positions so how can they then wonder off in the North???
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Ok, so you consider Cyprus as only south Cyprus? According to the EU, north Cyprus is part of Cyprus too. Yes, it's under the control of Turkish military but so what? As long as a Turkish Cypriot swears allegiance to the Republic of Cyprus and as long as he/she doesn't participate in T R N C, I don't see how this can be problematic. Besides what makes you think that a Turkish Cypriot living in the south cannot act as a double agent either? He/she can freely pass to the north and do whatever he/she wants without Republic of Cyprus knowing. How's a Turkish Cypriot living in the north any different? He/she spends more time in the north so there's more chance that he/she can be a double agent. Is that what you're telling me?
BTW, one other thing. Even if we agree that only Turkish Cypriots living in the south can participate in the Republic of Cyprus, this is still problematic because those Turkish Cypriots are not allowed to fill the vacant Turkish Cypriot vice president position or Turkish Cypriot house of representatives. Those Turkish Cypriots can only be enrolled in the Greek Cypriot list. That's why Neshe Yashin, a Turkish Cypriot living in the south, had to run for office in the Greek Cypriot list last elections. So even if we agree that your "security argument" is valid, the Republic of Cyprus still doesn't let Turkish Cypriots fill their rightful positions. What are you going to say now?
| Get Real! wrote: |
Since 1974 yes, I actually meant since 2004 when the Green Line opened! But what took you guys so long to demonstrate against Denktash? What a waste of three decades!
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I agree that Turkish Cypriots were unwilling for a solution for a long time but regardless, they took the step towards a solution in 2004. What did your side do for a solution other than giving IDs and passports that it has to anyway? |
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Get Real!
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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Location: Nicosia
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Mete...
| Quote: |
| And you told me that Turkish Cypriots should not expect representation within the Republic of Cyprus when they hold Greek Cypriot properties in the north |
Where did I say that?
| Quote: |
| Yes, it's under the control of Turkish military but so what? |
What can I say? Good luck convincing the Republic of Cyprus that a Turkish Cypriot minister who goes home in the North won't be mingling with the Turkish military and handing over Republic of Cyprus secrets.
| Quote: |
| Besides what makes you think that a Turkish Cypriot living in the south cannot act as a double agent either? |
Republic of Cyprus politicians don't go to the North unless it's an official visit/meeting with their Turkish Cypriot counterparts. You won't find them casually travelling in their cars with their families to visit "grandpa's house" like you and I might do. Having said that though a spy has a million ways to pass info along.. the internet being just one easy way anyway.
Moving to the South is also symbolic I suppose, because it shows that the person is leaving behind the past way of life and embracing the new.
As I said, these are EXTRAORDINARY circumstances that we are all going through in Cyprus and they're quite tense when you actually live here instead of some comfortable living room in the UK/US/Australia.
| Quote: |
| Turkish Cypriots are not allowed to fill the vacant Turkish Cypriot vice president position |
Hmm, that's an interesting point and I need to read up on this issue, maybe someone, Stavraki or Kifeas can fill us in on that one.
My guess would be that Turkish Cypriot elections would need to be held for vice president etc and the fact that the candidates aren't there the elections can't proceed?
It's a complex nightmare Mete and I don't think there's anyone on this planet who could possibly envy the Republic of Cyprus presidential role and have a fair idea of what they're getting into! |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 910
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Get real wrote:
| Quote: |
| What can I say? Good luck convincing the Republic of Cyprus that a Turkish Cypriot minister who goes home in the North won't be mingling with the Turkish military and handing over Republic of Cyprus secrets. |
I disagree with you GR, you have exactly the same attitude as Erolz why should we trust this and that. Well Republic of Cyprus should not have secrets in the first place. That is just an excuse, not good enough reason for me.
Turkish Cypriots who are residents of the North who are Cypriots, should have the right to participate in the government! It is discrimination simple because the few Greek Cypriots who are residents of the North (enclaves) I am pretty sure that they are allowed to participate in the government. Indirectly our government shows that the South is purely Greek. Cyprus is for Cypriots and all Cypriots should be able to participate indiscriminately, no questions asked.
Mete one thing I don't understand and I asked that question before, why many Turkish Cypriots take on their rights that they have in the Republic of Cyprus but at the same time most refuse to recognise Cyprus as their country? |
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Mete
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
Mete one thing I don't understand and I asked that question before, why many Turkish Cypriots take on their rights that they have in the Republic of Cyprus but at the same time most refuse to recognise Cyprus as their country?
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This is not true. You won't find one Turkish Cypriot that would deny that their homeland is Cyprus. Where did you get that information? |
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Get Real!
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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GR...
| Quote: |
| What can I say? Good luck convincing the Republic of Cyprus that a Turkish Cypriot minister who goes home in the North won't be mingling with the Turkish military and handing over Republic of Cyprus secrets. |
Stavraki...
| Quote: |
| I disagree with you GR, you have exactly the same attitude as Erolz why should we trust this and that. Well Republic of Cyprus should not have secrets in the first place. That is just an excuse, not good enough reason for me. |
Let's take the oil "crisis" as an example. Suppose the Republic of Cyprus had a meeting and agreed to award the oil drilling tender to some foreign company and a Turkish Cypriot minister who participated in that meeting took off to the North and fully informed the Turkish government of this decision and of the company's details.
Wouldn't the Turkish government start harassing the foreign company and thus interfere in the Republic of Cyprus's efforts? Wouldn't that constitute treason?
I believe the answer to those questions is "yes" on both counts. |
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Get Real!
Warnings : 3
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 325
Location: Nicosia
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Stavraki...
| Quote: |
| Mete one thing I don't understand and I asked that question before, why many Turkish Cypriots take on their rights that they have in the Republic of Cyprus but at the same time most refuse to recognise Cyprus as their country? |
There is not a doubt in my mind that if the Turkish Cypriot community could have a legal and prosperous separate state on the island of Cyprus they would opt for that.
What the Turkish Cypriot community really DESIRES (in their hearts) is one thing and what they will mostly have to ACCEPT is something entirely different. Thus the double standards which I see happening all the time.
They'll happily grab the Republic of Cyprus passport just in case yet claim that the Republic of Cyprus doesn't represent them when it's not to their advantage!
It's what I keep criticising Turkish Cypriots of... SITTING ON THE WALL but we all know what happened to Humpty Dumpty! |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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| Get Real wrote: |
They'll happily grab the Republic of Cyprus passport just in case yet claim that the Republic of Cyprus doesn't represent them when it's not to their advantage!
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You're right that there are some Turkish Cypriots who gets Republic of Cyprus passport because it makes it much easier to travel in Europe and they still support T R N C. However, there are other Turkish Cypriots who genuinely consider returning back to a bizonal form of Republic of Cyprus.
Either way though, if the Republic of Cyprus claims to represent Turkish Cypriots, it has to let Turkish Cypriots to be represented in the Republic of Cyprus. I said this before many times and it's not that hard to understand. If the Republic of Cyprus thinks that it's a "security threat" to have Turkish Cypriots in the Republic of Cyprus, or some other excuse, that's fine. But don't tell the whole world that Republic of Cyprus represents the whole island and its people. Get it? |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 910
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| erolz wrote: |
| stavrizatz wrote: |
We somewhat agree in many things, I also say that in 74 it was the obligation of Turkey to intervene and re-establish constitutional order, but it failed to do so. |
Surely one has to look at why it failed. Certainly the easy answer is 'because it did not want a restoration of the consitutional order because Turkish Cypriot and Turkey just weanted to steal from Greek Cypriot'. The much harder answer involves looking at how and why the consitutional order had failed and how it could be resotred given the hsitory of that failure and the failure of attempts to restore it short of military action. In my opinion one has to ask what realistic options did Turkey have to resotre that order. |
I don't think it is a hard answer to see why it had failed. In fact I believe it is a simple answer. Simply it was not what people wanted at the time. Why was there violence between 63-74? Because few people decided to take the law in their own hands and seek change using violence. And why 74 Turkey invaded? To fulfill its expantionist desires nothing more and nothing less. Millions of realistic options but no interest in restoring such order.
| Erolz wrote: |
| I do not refuse to accept that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is considered internationaly as 'illegal' as a sovreign state. That is just a fact and to deny it would be to deny plain facts. The point I am making is that Turkish Cypriot do not have the same faith or beleif in 'international law' as others do |
I can assure you that neither Greek Cypriots do for different reasons.
| Erolz wrote: |
| having seen 'international law' legitimise a post 64 Republic of Cyprus government. Given what happend before 74 Turkish Cypriot, rightly or wrongly, felt that international law had failed them and failed to protect their rights and that is why options outside of it were all that was left. |
Sorry, I think your argument is pretty poor. Because between 64-74 there was ethnic conflict in Cyprus the Republic of Cyprus should not have been recognised post 64. With that logic many countries were not supposed to be recognised. And when you say other options you mean ethnically divide Cyprus!!!?
| Erolz wrote: |
| I also say that for Turkish Cypriot we know that this international determination that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is illegal (and the Republic of Cyprus legal) is less to do with moral interpretations of international law and more to do with the self interests of powerful states and as such these sefl interest can and do change. |
Certainly
| Erolz wrote: |
| Under the 60's consitution there are two communites in the Republic of Cyprus and several minorites. Consitutionaly each of the minority groups were free to choose whihc of the two communites they would be included within. Consitutionaly the minorites chose to be recognised as a part of the Greek Cypriot community. From 64 onwards then the Republic of Cyprus has been solely Greek Cypriot community run in this consitutional sense as each of the minority communites are part of the Greek Cypriot community in this regard. |
Ok, then even the 400-500 Turkish Cypriots who live in the purely Greek Cypriot Republic of Cyprus belong to the Greek Cypriot community? |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| Get Real! wrote: |
Mete…
| Quote: |
| When 80.000 Turkish Cypriots were demonstrating against Denktash… |
The Republic of Cyprus wasted no time in giving its Turkish Cypriot citizens Passports and IDs in a gesture to LEGALLY REAFFAIRM their Cypriot citizenship. This was of PARAMOUNT importance because this would then allow a Turkish Cypriot to move to the South to live and work and get involved in whatever else desired.
There really was no other LEGAL way for the Republic to show this and we can’t expect for the President to grab a loudspeaker and start calling people’s names to cross over. It really was and is up to the individual to take advantage of the state, and to the best of my knowledge there are currently around 5,000 Turkish Cypriots working in the South. Pretty soon many of these will tire of driving back and forth for work and will probably opt for a permanent residence in the South but these things take time because trust building takes time.
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legal, legal , legal..... 
this mentality will never change!!!
why the hell should it be legal ? and what would have been so illegal in supporting the opposition to Denktas and the illegality he represents!!
and if you wanted to stay on legality:
call the people to demonstrate. bring the people in the squares. take advantage of the climate!
truth is, the demonstrations, scared us.
we were just happy with denktas.
when things changed to the direction we wanted, we did not know what to do.
and not only that, the press did its best to kill that moovement in the eyes of the public
.....
markides, was the first one some days ago to publicly accept that!!
who ?
a rightwinger!!! |
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