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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1742
Location: Canada
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if there were commitees active, according to July 8 agreement, then the stages of inclusion can be identified. as it is, it is an all or nothing situation which has lead to stagnation.
It costs turkey a great deal to occupy a society with jobs, and some form of social exchange. clearly what they are spending is not enough for the welfare of the people that have their reliance on them. this is lamentable, and worth considering toward resolving the consequences of this politic, seemingly natural, that these adversarial players display. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| pg wrote: |
erolz, in the last couple of post you have effectively said that if you where Greek Cypriot you would support 'the isolation', but since you are Turkish Cypriot you support removing it. Is that double standards or hypocrisy?
Sorry if I put the words there again. I just think you are a victim of your own (good) argumentation technique. |
Well this is getting very bogged down.
You are missing the difference between 'we' and 'I'.
When I said 'we' would probably do the same I meant as a community. Just like we adhere to certain propaganda lines and you (plural) do the same. I do not agree this is right on either side and personally try my best to avoid it as much as I can as an individual but I do understand it happening at the communal level. In short I can both understand why something happens whilst also not supporting it, just because I understand why it happens.
I personally as an individual think that it right that the world, post Annan plan seeks to reduce the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot people in the north (which is not the same as recognising the UDI of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus). I understand why the Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot organisations try and block and resist this effort. I understand why but that does not mean I think it is right. I get annoyed at the denial of this by the Republic of Cyprus and it scares me that some Greek Cypriot seem to believe this denial is true despite the obvious reality. That is pretty much my position. I think it is clear and consistent. I guess you think otherwise. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| erolz wrote: |
My only 'complaint' is when Greek Cypriot tell me that the isolation the Turkish Cypriot community face in the north are nothing to do with the actions of Greek Cypriot or the Republic of Cyprus at all. If they tell me that Greek Cypriot and Republic of Cyprus quite naturally are not gonna do anything in their power to reduce the effect of those isolation I do not really have any complaint.
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| erolz wrote: |
I personally as an individual think that it right that the world, post Annan plan seeks to reduce the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot people in the north (which is not the same as recognising the UDI of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus). I understand why the Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot organisations try and block and resist this effort. I understand why but that does not mean I think it is right.
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You have no complaints, but you do not think it is right.
Think I got it now. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| pg wrote: |
You have no complaints, but you do not think it is right.
Think I got it now. |
Exactly. I do not think it is right but I have no real complaint because I understand it, even though I do not agree with it. Unlike doing such and then claiming you are not, which I do not agree with nor understand.
Sometimes I think it would be easier to not even try and be as 'fair' as possible  I guess you would have been happier if I condemned the Republic of Cyprus attempts to maximise and sustain isolation on Turkish Cypriot in the north as incomprehensible as well as their denial of doing such ? |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| erolz wrote: |
| I personally as an individual think that it right that the world, post Annan plan seeks to reduce the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot people in the north (which is not the same as recognising the UDI of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus). |
The discussion of why there is some pressure to reduce the isolation could be interesting. I think the expression 'post Annan plan' is a bit too simple since it implies a reduction of isolation is a reward for voting correctly. I do not think that is the real case. The way I see it some international players considered that Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots changed their position substantially when supporting the Annan plan compared to earlier decades - and they fear that the Turkish Cypriot community may fall back in the old position unless "rewarded". In other words, they think the Turkish Cypriot support for re-unification is not that deep, true and real, but they want to keep try to keep the Turkish Cypriot in the 'yes-position' while waiting for the Greek Cypriot leadership to come up with a more constructive approach. The 'reduction of isolation' is a way to keep the heat up, not because it is 'right'.
Relevant to that, I think that if the Greek Cypriot leadership (TP) had shown a truly constructive approach, both before and after the referendum, then there would have been no real talk about 'reducing isolation' - even though there was a yes/no result.
In other words, if someone claims the Turkish Cypriots should be rewarded for voting correctly, it implies they mean it is possible to define the correct way of voting... It also means that when they suggest the Turkish Cypriot should be given 'reduced isolation' in order to make sure they vote 'correctly' again..., it means they can not be trusted to vote as they should the next time. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| erolz wrote: |
| pg wrote: |
You have no complaints, but you do not think it is right.
Think I got it now. |
Exactly. I do not think it is right but I have no real complaint because I understand it, even though I do not agree with it. |
I understand that the Turkish Cypriot community want to reduce isolation, but that does not mean I understand this in the meaning that I see valid reasons for them doing so.
The way you said you understand the Greek Cypriot community's position, was that I thought you understood the Greek Cypriot community to have valid reasons for their position - somehow saying there are valid reasons..., but reasons you think are not right. 'Valid but wrong'...?
In other words, I actually did not mean I thought I got it. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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This notion that the world community showing a commitment to reduce the isolation of Turkish Cypriot is some kind of 'reward' for voting yes to the Annan Plan is in my opinion not correct. It is not a 'reward' but a recognition that our isolation can not be justified indefinately if we show a commitment to a solution and it is blocked by the Greek Cypriot community, which is exactly what happend with the Annan Plan. If in future we continue to show as a community a comittment to a solution and these are blocked by the Greek Cypriot community the pressure to reduce our isolation will increase. If we do not show that comittment it will not.
On the other point if a larger boy in school thumps a smaller one, because the smaller one had been bullying his even smaller sister, then I understand why the larger boy thumped the little one, but I do not accept this was 'right'. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 924
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Mete wrote: |
| What you don't get is that the Republic of Cyprus, as it stands today, is a Greek Cypriot only republic and it does not represent Turkish Cypriots. You could have blamed Turkish Cypriots for their lack of representation in the Republic of Cyprus before but recently a group of Turkish Cypriots tried to reclaim their rights in the Republic of Cyprus but it got denied! Kifeas can provide you more details on that. |
hi Mete, I think I do get that the Republic of Cyprus as it stands today is a mainly Greek Cypriots republic but this is because of the circumstances of Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus (I don't why it exists the way it does today but anyway it is not up to me to change it) is not a purely Greek Cypriot and that is a fact. Perhaps some separatists Turkish Cypriots what to say so to justify the existance of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus but that is not true. Turkish Cypriots can elect and be elected, can live. can do anything they want in the free areas of Cyprus. As for the group that you mention Mete, they want be in the government while living in the North. Maybe Kifeas can help us on that indead
| Mete wrote: |
And where do vast majority of Turkish Cypriots live? Mars? Yes, embargoes are on the "occupied territory" but most Turkish Cypriots live on this "occupied territory" without a real choice and hence live under the embargoes. |
There is no doubt (at least in my mind) that Turkish Cypriots suffer from the embargoes and there no doubt that Turkish Cypriots suffered the most during the last 33 years. A friend of mind tells me "you Greeks suffered from 74 for some days, but we suffer from the occupation of our country every day since then!".
My question is how do we stop the isolation of Turkish Cypriots while not giving any credit to Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and not upgrade its status and make tha partition permanent? |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 924
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| RudeGal wrote: |
1. Luton Town invited for a friendly match in North Cyprus by Cetinkaya - one of the biggest/most successful Turkish Cypriot teams and historically, one of the 8 teams that were inaugural members of the Cyprus FA and Football League set up in 1930s. Luton Town informed the English FA (as they must) about the match and were given a provisional OK, then the English FA informed the [Greek] Cypriot FA (as they must). They said only if Cetinkaya asked their permission could this happen. Cetinkaya did not, so the Cypriot FA told the English FA that Luton were forbidden to play. The late decision resulted in a total farce for all concerned, as Luton played Luton in an "exhibition match" in North Nicosia. |
and may I ask why Cetinkaya did not ask for the permission by the Cyprus FA?
| RudeGal wrote: |
| The politicians may not find a fair/agreeable solution for years, but that cannot justify Turkish Cypriots having less opportunities than Greek Cypriots. It is not real to expect every Turkish Cypriot must move to South Cyprus for this to happen - |
Less opportunities in terms of what? Sports.?! Turkish Cypriots can play for the colours of Cyprus or in Turkey. And I thing it is stupid to have to league in one country so it would be great to see Turkish Cypriot teams playing in next year's championship. Actually I've heard that Cetinkaya might join the league, is that true?
| RudeGal wrote: |
| Greek Cypriots must remember, since 1963 for us Turkish Cypriots the Republic of Cyprus is a Greek Cypriot thing - very very few Turkish Cypriots see current Republic of Cyprus as their State. Under Annan, we would have all united for a new Republic of Cyprus, but since that's pie in the sky, Turkish Cypriots are represented by the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus - warts and all! |
Back to the history of remembering and forgeting  |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| erolz wrote: |
This notion that the world community showing a commitment to reduce the isolation of Turkish Cypriot is some kind of 'reward' for voting yes to the Annan Plan is in my opinion not correct. It is not a 'reward' but a recognition that our isolation can not be justified indefinately if we show a commitment to a solution and it is blocked by the Greek Cypriot community, which is exactly what happend with the Annan Plan. If in future we continue to show as a community a comittment to a solution and these are blocked by the Greek Cypriot community the pressure to reduce our isolation will increase. If we do not show that comittment it will not.
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Do you mean that the Turkish Cypriot community has shown commitment to a solution?
To start with, the Annan plan is not the same as a solution (and just remember I was for it). For a community to show commitment to a solution should mean showing commitment towards finding a mutually agreed solution - nothing else. With that definition I might say that the Turkish Cypriot community showed commitment before the referendum, but hardly after.
It is even questionable if the Turkish Cypriot community has shown commitment to the Annan plan..., especially considering one of the most important aspects of the problem - the property issue..., and most likely a reduction of the isolation would make that aspect even worse.
(Note I have not claimed that Papadopoulos has shown more urgency than Talat.) |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| and may I ask why Cetinkaya did not ask for the permission by the Cyprus FA? |
Because since being locked out of the Cypriot league by Greek Cypriots (dating 1 April 1955 - I did put some facts/stats on this earlier in thread), the all Greek Cypriot FA does not represent Turkish Cypriot teams including Cetinkaya. Since 1955, Cetinkaya is registered to the Turkish Cypriot Football Association only. And given the breakdown in Cyprus of all shared things - even in sports - because one side seeks to dominate the other, which the other side rejects, I'm sure you can understand why Cetinkaya has not/will not ask the Greek Cypriot FA for permission. They have no intention of giving any legitimacy to a body that falsely claims to represent all Cyprus/Cypriots.
| stavrizatz wrote: |
| RudeGal wrote: |
| The politicians may not find a fair/agreeable solution for years, but that cannot justify Turkish Cypriots having less opportunities than Greek Cypriots. It is not real to expect every Turkish Cypriot must move to South Cyprus for this to happen - |
Less opportunities in terms of what? Sports.?! Turkish Cypriots can play for the colours of Cyprus or in Turkey. And I thing it is stupid to have to league in one country so it would be great to see Turkish Cypriot teams playing in next year's championship. Actually I've heard that Cetinkaya might join the league, is that true? |
No, such rumours have been flying around for years. Indeed Cetinkaya have been offered large sums of money to join the Greek Cypriot league but have always passed. Only when Greek Cypriots respect and recognise equality of all Turkish Cypriots (not just one team), and are ready to share power can there be e genuine breakthrough. Otherwise there will be two of everything... |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| pg wrote: |
Do you mean that the Turkish Cypriot community has shown commitment to a solution?
To start with, the Annan plan is not the same as a solution (and just remember I was for it). For a community to show commitment to a solution should mean showing commitment towards finding a mutually agreed solution - nothing else. With that definition I might say that the Turkish Cypriot community showed commitment before the referendum, but hardly after.
It is even questionable if the Turkish Cypriot community has shown commitment to the Annan plan..., especially considering one of the most important aspects of the problem - the property issue..., and most likely a reduction of the isolation would make that aspect even worse. |
pg, I disagree, lots of things can be a solution - even ones violently forced on others. They may be fair or not, supported by all or not, but if it ends a problem (though may start others!) it is a solution. How long such a solution is supported is also irrelevant. In this instance, from at least 2003-6, Turkish Cypriots clearly supported a bizonal, bi-fed (annan style) solution, as they either voted for the plan or for politicians who support this solution (Talat as President, CTP as majority party in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus Parliament or in local elections etc). Since then, support has waned, primarily due to facts on ground. Greek Cypriots don't want to share power, so no incentive left for Turkish Cypriots to support an Annan style solution. Greek Cypriot proposed solutions are not in Turkish Cypriot interest, so we back to square one... |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| Leon wrote: |
I believe in the principle of double effect here: creating a Government in an area that is illegally invaded, or perhaps "necessarily interrupted" (  ) will naturally result in embargoes and isolation from the rest of the world. How can an organisation in which many members are pro-re-unification want to legalise direct flights to the north and allow the north's state (note: not referring to the Turkish Cypriot people) to trade freely? This would only gear towards gradual partition and the recognition of such a nation. This is not rationally coherent. To be in favour of re-unification (which would generally be taken to show that that person does not support the independence/legality of the north) is the total opposite of campaigning for direct flights and to lift of embargoes to that very land. Supporting re-unification but also supporting the end to embargoed and indirect flights is as logical and commonsensical as a Muslim cleric becoming the chairman of the BNP whilst still wanting to islamify Britain.
Embargoed! is yet another propagandist machine that spews bull. It is also of the view that there has never been one true Cypriot nation, identity, or culture, which I strongly oppose based on the grounds that it is false and pro-partition. I nearly wrote them a letter in the summer to point out their inconsistencies and I think I will now when I have the time. |
I think Leon, you have problems similar to many other Greek Cypriots in that you cannot really comprehend what power-sharing is all about, or the international mandate set for a unified Cyprus. The rest of the world and Turkish Cypriots understand that, given Cyprus' recent tragic history, any peacefully agreed solution to Cyprus will mean the two sides controlling their own territories for foreseeable future with some power-sharing in the centre. I won't deal with exactly what powers for each federal zone or how much territory for each, but the actual concept of power-sharing means that international flights would come to Ercan airport, which would be under Turkish Cypriot control. Likewise trade directly with North side. So why is this incompatible with a united Cyprus?
From your comments (and many other Greek Cypriots I talk to/read views from) I get feeling there is extreme paranoia that 1mm of Turkish Cypriot independence is akin to total separation. If you cannot trust my/other Turkish Cypriot intentions, why should we trust Greek Cypriots given past/present experiences? Facts are we voted en masse to share power, to put the past behind and try again. That leap of faith in 2004 was not reciprocated and from then on, Greek Cypriots lost ALL moral ground to say Turkish Cypriots must remain isolated.
Feel free to write to Embargoed! and - not sure where you are based - but if UK or Cyprus, do go for chats with members. You will find it a positive experience, as we are all open to constructive comments and positive dialogue. We do not profess to have all the answers, but we will continue to defend Turkish Cypriot rights based on universal values and a balanced view of CYprus (where we get it wrong, we are happy to amend  ) |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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Rudegal, The difference lies with the 'political' level.
The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a 'state' cant be given power cos it would be anti-reunification, but there would not be any problem with giving the Turkish Cypriot component/federal state the power of ercan airport.
Ercan would be allowed to operate if allowed (and i assume operated) by the 'internationally recognised' authority...that being the Republic of Cyprus.
I dont think Greek Cypriots are against Turkish Cypriots controlling ercan/tymbou airport...its the fact that it would be controlled by the illegal 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' (whether it was run by indians, chinese, guatemalans or turks) for now until a solution. If there was someway in enabling the Turkish Cypriots to control Ercan through the Republic of Cyprus and not the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus then it would probably be possible.
(btw HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!!) |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 924
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| RudeGal wrote: |
| Because since being locked out of the Cypriot league by Greek Cypriots (dating 1 April 1955 - I did put some facts/stats on this earlier in thread), the all Greek Cypriot FA does not represent Turkish Cypriot teams including Cetinkaya. Since 1955, Cetinkaya is registered to the Turkish Cypriot Football Association only...I'm sure you can understand why Cetinkaya has not/will not ask the Greek Cypriot FA for permission. They have no intention of giving any legitimacy to a body that falsely claims to represent all Cyprus/Cypriots. |
Of course I understand, you see it actually had political intentions the friendly aggenst Luton town and it was not simply cancelled because the Republic of Cyprus wanted to maximise the isolation (as some people claim) but because Cetinkaya did not want to recognise and give credit to Cypriot FA but recognise the Turkish Cypriot FA and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus!!!
| RudeGal wrote: |
| And given the breakdown in Cyprus of all shared things - even in sports - because one side seeks to dominate the other, which the other side rejects, |
I assume you believe that Greek Cypriots want to dominate Turkish Cypriots and for that you avoid being dominated do you do all sort of things to avoid domination and win. Unintentionally you fall in the vitious cyrcle of doings to 'hurt' the other community but instead of impoving the relations, you destroy them. All I am trying to say here is that if the action taken to avoid being dominated could be what creates the isolation of Turkish Cypriots.
No, such rumours have been flying around for years. Indeed Cetinkaya have been offered large sums of money to join the Greek Cypriot league but have always passed. [/quote]
And then you complain for isolation!!!
Only when Greek Cypriots respect and recognise equality of all Turkish Cypriots (not just one team), and are ready to share power can there be e genuine breakthrough. Otherwise there will be two of everything...[/quote]
And who said that Greek Cypriots don't respect and don't recognise equality of all Turkish Cypriots?
| RudeGal wrote: |
| Greek Cypriots don't want to share power, so no incentive left for Turkish Cypriots to support an Annan style solution. Greek Cypriot proposed solutions are not in Turkish Cypriot interest, so we back to square one... |
You have the right to believe that Greek Cypriot don't want to share power with Turkish Cypriots but you don't be so dogmatic about it. The official position of the current government of Republic of Cyprus is the Bi-zonal Bi-communal federal governance so if that is not sharing power then what is. The 1960 agreements were also about sharing power and if you propose that to Greek Cypriots I believe the extreme majority would welcome it overwelmingly. Personally I am in favour of a unitary state with no artificial borders along ethnic lines, a state that celebrates multi cultural brotherhood, a type of governance that reflects the will of the people and a state that respects the human rights of all and everyone to be judge by who they are and not by what ethnic group they belong to. That is also another form of sharing power. Sharing Power does not only mean Anan Plan! |
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