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| IS Cyprus better off or Worse off after EOKA? |
| Cyprus was better off with EOKA: |
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27% |
[ 5 ] |
| Cyprus was worse off with EOKA: |
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44% |
[ 8 ] |
| Cyprus should of Stayed with Britain: |
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27% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 18 |
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| Author |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Irish Cypriot, i think your view is quite fair but I don't agree with all the points that you've mentioned. Doesn't matter difference of opinion. Just to mention that the coup of Greece had no intention to kill or go against Turkish Cypriots, the coup was directed towards the government. So there was no need for Turkey to go and protect Turkish Cypriots. Turkey had the right to intervene in order to prevent the coup and their role according to the constitution (treaty of quarantee) was to restore the Republic of Cyprus. For me it is dead obvious that Turkey came to divide the island and not protect Turkish Cypriots or restore the republic.
Mete wrote:
| Quote: |
| So you admit that there were ex-EOKA men and you admit (I'm assuming) that their aim was still Enosis. |
Of course, I always did.
Mete wrote:
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| Same people, same goal, only different time period! |
1. This is what I don't admit, some people were the same but many were different
2. Eventually the same goal (enosis) but under totally different circumstances. EOKA demanded the departure of the colonial power and the right of self-determination and they had the support of the people. Those paramilary groups had no reason to exist in a liberated country. They demanded enosis (etsithelimatika) with the iron fist using unneccessary violence. I dislike those groups perhaps at the same degree that you do.
| Quote: |
| I just don't understand how you can separate before 1960 and after 1960 so clearly. You act like before 1960, there was a noble organization composed of freedom-fighters called EOKA (and for that, they're heroes), after 1960, it ceased to exist completely, and then some random people formed another completely different organization with completely different objectives, goals, and methods and this organization was not noble and they weren't freedom fighters. As a result, did horrible things to Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots that didn't agree with them and EOKA had nothing to do with them in any way. |
Exactly, to you is perhaps absurd because you compare it with TMT which continued as an organisation and under the same leadership after 1960.
Because I feel this conversation is going nowhere, I just to give you an example and you tell me what you think.
Eg. Green Peace, they run as an organisation and they support measures for a better environment for the future. All of a sudden the governments of the world accept some of their demands and as a pressure group they have no purpose to exist anymore, theyfore shut the organisation down. However, even after governments agree to take corrective measures, some green peace activists are not satisfied and they form their own little groups and continue to use violence in order to persuade their goals.
Is it the mistake of Green Peace as an organisation and are they responsible for the behaviour of its members after it shut itself down? |
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IrishCypriot
Villager
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Ireland
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stavrizatz - I think there was a need for turkey to go and protect turkish cypriots because nobody else did. Turkish cypriots were murdered before 1974 and the coup in Greece, while not a primary object had every intention of enosis and indirectly supportered EOKA which is documented with the UN.
UN Secretary General Report S/7350, June 1966..... "UNFICYP has no precise information on the strenght of Greek officers and other catagories of military personnel from greece since my last report have been confirmed-in public statements concerning the command structure-as being members of the national guard (S/7191, Para 24)."
UN Secretary General Report S/9286, December 1967.....
"Earlier, on 11 July 1967, the House of Representatives passed a bill designed to give legal status to the Greek army officers and men serving, hitherti covertly, with the National Guard in Cyprus"
You see, its not myth.... Anyway, what Turkey did in July 1974 was in my opinion, nodoubt a peace mission. I think Turkey saw an opportunity to realise what they had dreamed of for so long before 1974, that was to stake a claim in Cyprus.... that i do not agree with. Why should a people be given there own state in Northern Cyprus if they are not given the freedom to excerise their own right to co-exist. But Turkey and Republic of Cyprus are to blame for that.... |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
Because I feel this conversation is going nowhere, I just to give you an example and you tell me what you think.
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This is indeed not going anywhere, so I'll take a break from this thread for a while unless someone says something outrageous again (like heroes and such) that i cannot resit to respond. |
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Evagoras
Senior Villager
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 118
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| EOKA 55-59. in 64 until the creation of national guard we have the paramilitary groops of sampson lissarides giorkatzis. all this leaders were ex EOKA mempers isnt that logikal since they were the only people with military experience?but many of their mempers were not ex EOKA men and many ex EOKA men did not partisipate in those groops. lyssarides have never partisipated in any atrossities i am not sure about giorkatzis. from 72-74 we have EOKA B .most of ex EOKA men stayed loyal to makarios and EOKA B had many mempers that were to young to parisipate in the original EOKA.EOKA B havent killed a single Turkish Cypriot because their aim was makarios supporters.after the invasion the EOKAB D didnt exist anymore because makarios was overthrowned.the atrocities against Turkish Cypriot civilians after the invasion were done by Greek Cypriot civilians.the may were ex EOKA B mempers mauby they were not. we give medals to ex EOKA men to honour their strugle against the british.whish is the reason you give medals to ex TMT mempers METE? |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Irishcypriot wrote:
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| stavrizatz - I think there was a need for turkey to go and protect turkish cypriots because nobody else did. Turkish cypriots were murdered before 1974 and the coup in Greece, while not a primary object had every intention of enosis and indirectly supportered EOKA which is documented with the UN. |
I respect your opinion but personally I don't share the same view... I believe that the protection of Turkish Cypriots was used as a pretext.
I guess Mete you will respond to Evagoras post 
Evagora - Giorkatzis I think he was one of the most active and responsible for quite a few atrocities. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Evagoras wrote: |
| EOKA 55-59. in 64 until the creation of national guard we have the paramilitary groops of sampson lissarides giorkatzis. all this leaders were ex EOKA mempers isnt that logikal since they were the only people with military experience?but many of their mempers were not ex EOKA men and many ex EOKA men did not partisipate in those groops. lyssarides have never partisipated in any atrossities i am not sure about giorkatzis. from 72-74 we have EOKA B .most of ex EOKA men stayed loyal to makarios and EOKA B had many mempers that were to young to parisipate in the original EOKA.EOKA B havent killed a single Turkish Cypriot because their aim was makarios supporters.after the invasion the EOKAB D didnt exist anymore because makarios was overthrowned.the atrocities against Turkish Cypriot civilians after the invasion were done by Greek Cypriot civilians.the may were ex EOKA B mempers mauby they were not. |
In 1964 my (non tmt innocent civilian) uncle went to work. He was taken from his place of work in british bank in broad daylight by armed Greek Cypriot militas (thugs) and never seen alive again. It is a historical fact that the majority of these illegal armed gangs operating in the area my uncle was taken from were controlled by Yiorjardis. This is the same Yiorjardis that was number 2 or 3 in the EOKA paramilitary wing pre independence. He was at the time of my uncles murder the interior minister of the Republic of Cyprus with a duty of care and responsibility for the security of the state and ALL of it's citizens. He was appointed to this role by Makarios who (imo) undoubtedly had knowledge that he was recruiting and arming and running such illegal ethnic based para military thugs. His goal after 1960 was the same as it was within EOKA pre independence - to achieve enosis whatever the wishes and cost to the Turkish Cypriot community. His means and methods were the same as with EOKA - the use of illegal violence and force and fear against those he considered enemies of enosis (Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot). His power as interior minister was given to him by Makarios and he was allowed to do what he did by Makarios, because Makarios saw independence as a 'stepping stone' to enosis - the 'old' EOKA objective that was yet to be achieved.
So Evagoras whilst I can understand that for you there is a clear distinction and total separation between EOKA as an organisation pre independence and the likes of Yiorjardis and Sampson and the thugs they set up and ran post independence, for me that seperation is no where near as clear cut, distinct and total as it is for you. I hope you can understand this ?
| Evagoras wrote: |
| we give medals to ex EOKA men to honour their strugle against the british.whish is the reason you give medals to ex TMT mempers METE? |
No one doubts that within EOKA there were honorable brave men taking great personal risk and making great personal sacrifices in a cause they believed was just for the betterment of their people, along with the vicious power hungry thugs willing to use the 'cause' as a means of personal self aggrandisement and power accumulation and willing to murder anyone that stood in their way. TMT is no different. It also had it power hungry thugs , for whom the 'cause' was a convenient 'cover' for their own brutality and desire for power, just as it also had it's honorable brave men taking great personal risk and making great personal sacrifice in a cause they believed was just for the betterment (and even very survival) of their people.
Where the difference lies is that I accept this reality about both EOKA and TMT as organisations and those within them, without drawing what I consider to be and arbitrary line in time and saying before this point EOKA and those in it were all of the honorable type and after some were not and those that were not were not connected in any way to EOKA pre independence. That kind of black and white distinction is to me not a result of truth or reality but one of belief and faith born of a form of propaganda. |
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Evagoras
Senior Villager
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 118
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| erolz wrote: |
| Evagoras wrote: |
| EOKA 55-59. in 64 until the creation of national guard we have the paramilitary groops of sampson lissarides giorkatzis. all this leaders were ex EOKA mempers isnt that logikal since they were the only people with military experience?but many of their mempers were not ex EOKA men and many ex EOKA men did not partisipate in those groops. lyssarides have never partisipated in any atrossities i am not sure about giorkatzis. from 72-74 we have EOKA B .most of ex EOKA men stayed loyal to makarios and EOKA B had many mempers that were to young to parisipate in the original EOKA.EOKA B havent killed a single Turkish Cypriot because their aim was makarios supporters.after the invasion the EOKAB D didnt exist anymore because makarios was overthrowned.the atrocities against Turkish Cypriot civilians after the invasion were done by Greek Cypriot civilians.the may were ex EOKA B mempers mauby they were not. |
In 1964 my (non tmt innocent civilian) uncle went to work. He was taken from his place of work in british bank in broad daylight by armed Greek Cypriot militas (thugs) and never seen alive again. It is a historical fact that the majority of these illegal armed gangs operating in the area my uncle was taken from were controlled by Yiorjardis. This is the same Yiorjardis that was number 2 or 3 in the EOKA paramilitary wing pre independence. He was at the time of my uncles murder the interior minister of the Republic of Cyprus with a duty of care and responsibility for the security of the state and ALL of it's citizens. He was appointed to this role by Makarios who (imo) undoubtedly had knowledge that he was recruiting and arming and running such illegal ethnic based para military thugs. His goal after 1960 was the same as it was within EOKA pre independence - to achieve enosis whatever the wishes and cost to the Turkish Cypriot community. His means and methods were the same as with EOKA - the use of illegal violence and force and fear against those he considered enemies of enosis (Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot). His power as interior minister was given to him by Makarios and he was allowed to do what he did by Makarios, because Makarios saw independence as a 'stepping stone' to enosis - the 'old' EOKA objective that was yet to be achieved.
So Evagoras whilst I can understand that for you there is a clear distinction and total separation between EOKA as an organisation pre independence and the likes of Yiorjardis and Sampson and the thugs they set up and ran post independence, for me that seperation is no where near as clear cut, distinct and total as it is for you. I hope you can understand this ?
| Evagoras wrote: |
| we give medals to ex EOKA men to honour their strugle against the british.whish is the reason you give medals to ex TMT mempers METE? |
No one doubts that within EOKA there were honorable brave men taking great personal risk and making great personal sacrifices in a cause they believed was just for the betterment of their people, along with the vicious power hungry thugs willing to use the 'cause' as a means of personal self aggrandisement and power accumulation and willing to murder anyone that stood in their way. TMT is no different. It also had it power hungry thugs , for whom the 'cause' was a convenient 'cover' for their own brutality and desire for power, just as it also had it's honorable brave men taking great personal risk and making great personal sacrifice in a cause they believed was just for the betterment (and even very survival) of their people.
Where the difference lies is that I accept this reality about both EOKA and TMT as organisations and those within them, without drawing what I consider to be and arbitrary line in time and saying before this point EOKA and those in it were all of the honorable type and after some were not and those that were not were not connected in any way to EOKA pre independence. That kind of black and white distinction is to me not a result of truth or reality but one of belief and faith born of a form of propaganda. |
offcourse many thugs existed in EOKA i have never denied it. thugs existed in all the organisations and revolutions. i just wanted to say is not fair to blame EOKA for everything happend against Turkish Cypriot.i personally believe that EOKA had a noblle cause and TMT not.as for the creation of paramilitaries groops in 64 who was going to fight against TMT? i dont thing yiorkatzis had so big power in the o EOKA numper 2 was afxentiou. yiorkatzis is not a person i appresiate anyway. |
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repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
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Terrorism today, has its roots in the fabled beginning, with guerilla warfare, here in Cyprus.
I think at its advent, it was a noble cause, in an era that was changing. Its romantic notions were quickly exploited by few who sought to gain power for themselves, for their own gain choosing to be served by a Motherland, and its power, (and its politic during the Cold War), they did not embrace the ideal Mankind offered, far greater, to sustain themselves, as a people, as such, having the distinction of a State.
These people, (on either side), the people, I believe, did not support their cause, and they were feared, because of the acts that were done in their name. Maybe there are good TMTs as there were good EOKAs but it remains that there are wounds to heal of many, on both sides, which fester because we live in the past with its rules, denying that change must be made, that we must change the nature of adversity, so that through our cooperation there is a betterment of the Human Condition, focusing our hostility on the real enemies: Hunger, Disease, Disaster, and Ignorance.
Terrorism cannot rule, but this ideal, to choose for Freedom, Equality, and Fraternity, through Good Governance, will not remain the same either, it includes our cooperation as States, that we are all equal as beings, and it will include representation for the Trees, the Water, the Mountains, and the Seas, as well.
Today, this debate continues to rage, under the surface, without affecting the lives of the many who are the island's dwellers. However ENOSIS has become a choice for the future if all else fails, if Turkey's illegal occupation succeeds, to continue, as a permanent state, the risk of confrontation will increase. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Evagoras wrote: |
i personally believe that EOKA had a noblle cause and TMT not.
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What was the noble cause of EOKA after 1963? By EOKA I mean all the paramilitary groups, etc. etc. that you guys try to distinguish so hard from EOKA. To me and many Turkish Cypriots, they are all the same. What was so noble about their actions against Turkish Cypriots after 1963? I don't know what your definition of noble means, but in my book, signing a treaty and then not respecting it 3 years later and intimidating the minority in order to scare the minority is hardly noble.
So you ask, what about TMT? I'm not going to label anything as noble or anyone as heroes so easily but one could say it was a resistance movement against the oppression of the majority. And if you look hard enough, you'll find their cause noble too and you'll find heroes inside TMT as well resisting against oppression.
However, both of these organizations brought more misery to the island and its people than good. For that, I cannot consider their members as heroes.
For me, heroes are Greek Cypriots who slept in the same room as captured Turkish Cypriots so they cannot be killed by Greek Cypriot soldiers. Or the Turkish Cypriot who called the UN when he realized that Turkish Cypriots were going to massacre a bunch of Greek Cypriots. These are the real heroes in my eyes, not the opportunistic, chauvinist, nationalist idiots. I hope I'm clear. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Quote: |
| By EOKA I mean all the paramilitary groups, etc. etc. that you guys try to distinguish so hard from EOKA. To me and many Turkish Cypriots, they are all the same. |
| Quote: |
| …I hope I'm clear. |
Yes, you are clear that you refuse reality and you insist that EOKAs actions continued until 1974. It is a historical fact that it wasn’t the case. Please read the following of the common mistakes that Turkish Cypriots do as a result of the continues propaganda, written by Papadakis (yes he is Greek but he is one of the most respected conflict analysts of the Cyprus problem).
Common Greek Cypriot mistaken interpretation:
| Quote: |
| As far as the EOKA movement is concerned two points need to be made. In the first place, the movement is now presented as a struggle of all Cypriots, thus overshadowing the exclusion of the left and the disagreement of the Turkish Cypriots. Secondly, it is mostly referred to as apeleftherotikos aghonas (freedom struggle) or aghonas yia anexartisia (independence struggle) and not as aghonas yia enosi (struggle for union) as it really was. |
Common Turkish Cypriot mistaken interpretation:
| Quote: |
| The Turkish Cypriots, by contrast, not only stress that the aim of EOKA was enosis but as the 1960-74 period is very important in their social memory they remember that during this period enosis was still pursued, leading to the 1974 coup. As much as Greek Cypriots try to forget the appeal of this slogan after 1960 the Turkish Cypriots are determined not to forget this and (wrongly) insist that this is still the Greek Cypriots' aim. From the official Turkish Cypriot viewpoint EOKA was as much a struggle for enosis as one aimed against the Turkish Cypriots who were its victims. Turkish Cypriots feel that after 1960, EOKA and the struggle for enosis were both alive with the aim of exterminating them and they regard EOKA B as a continuation of EOKA. After all, they say, it staged the coup in order to bring about enosis. Commemorations of EOKA on the Greek Cypriot side are interpreted as exemplifying Greek Cypriot persistence in enosis. However, as I previously indicated, the meaning of the EOKA commemoration is quite different as the Greek Cypriot policy of silence regarding the pursuit of enosis during and after EOKA permits them to now celebrate EOKA as a movement for freedom or independence, with most Greek Cypriots having come to regard it in these terms. As Loizos (1974) and Markides (1974) also indicate EOKA and EOKA B were radically different not only in terms of their aims and composition but while the latter may have received widespread support by Greek Cypriots the latter was equally strongly detested. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Evagoras
Senior Villager
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 118
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| Mete wrote: |
| Evagoras wrote: |
i personally believe that EOKA had a noblle cause and TMT not.
|
What was the noble cause of EOKA after 1963? By EOKA I mean all the paramilitary groups, etc. etc. that you guys try to distinguish so hard from EOKA. To me and many Turkish Cypriots, they are all the same. What was so noble about their actions against Turkish Cypriots after 1963? I don't know what your definition of noble means, but in my book, signing a treaty and then not respecting it 3 years later and intimidating the minority in order to scare the minority is hardly noble.
So you ask, what about TMT? I'm not going to label anything as noble or anyone as heroes so easily but one could say it was a resistance movement against the oppression of the majority. And if you look hard enough, you'll find their cause noble too and you'll find heroes inside TMT as well resisting against oppression.
However, both of these organizations brought more misery to the island and its people than good. For that, I cannot consider their members as heroes.
For me, heroes are Greek Cypriots who slept in the same room as captured Turkish Cypriots so they cannot be killed by Greek Cypriot soldiers. Or the Turkish Cypriot who called the UN when he realized that Turkish Cypriots were going to massacre a bunch of Greek Cypriots. These are the real heroes in my eyes, not the opportunistic, chauvinist, nationalist idiots. I hope I'm clear. |
their is nothing noble in the slaughters against innocent Turkish Cypriot.lyssarides men that had fought in st hilarion in 64 to stop TMT to create a brighead for the turkish army to invade fought for a noble cause. i cant see how TMT that was created to bring violence between the 2 communities and bring partision to the island against the wishes of majority and fought for the ethnic cleaning of 200.000 Greek Cypriot had a noble cause.the people that you say you consider heroes in the end of your post are heroes in my eyes too. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2880
Location: Australia
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EOKA B?
They where a bunch of misguided murdering fools whose main purpose WAS to kill the Communists and then kill all the Turkish Cypriot given the opportunity:
IF some EOKA B killed there own BROTHERS and Fathers why should they care about Turkish Cypriot?
Imagine what they would do to them given the chance?
Greece and Britain turned a blind eye to the EOKA B because there where doing a great job getting rid of the so called Communist:
And who where the Communists?
Anyone that didn't agree with the EOKA B!
Why did the Greece agree with EOKA B?
Simple because Greece was also murdering the Communists in Greece: How many so called Communist where sent to Macronisso for 99years?
How many so called Communist in Greece ended up dead or missing?
As for the British they had there hand full with Nasser in Egypt and the Suez problem without Makarios saying "We will make Cyprus a second Cuba!":
This gave the Britain a reason to turn a blind eye on EOKA B so they could get rid of the Communist Plague as Churchill would say!
cheers!
Who is your WORST enemy they once asked Grivas!
He said I only have ONE enemy!
COMMUNISTS! |
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repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
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| yiasou dp, tell it like it is. |
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repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
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| Quote: |
| For me, heroes are Greek Cypriots who slept in the same room as captured Turkish Cypriots so they cannot be killed by Greek Cypriot soldiers. Or the Turkish Cypriot who called the UN when he realized that Turkish Cypriots were going to massacre a bunch of Greek Cypriots. These are the real heroes in my eyes, not the opportunistic, chauvinist, nationalist idiots. I hope I'm clear. |
OHPA, Mete! |
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