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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
| zan wrote: |
| Quote: |
perhaps the difference lies in the fact , that in our grandmothers society there was no other choise. and when everyone acts like that then it is turns into sth legitimate.
yet if you live in australia, the other choise exists , and maybe it is the constrast that makes me feel sorry about that 10-year old. |
The point I tried to make in my post. The same point I tried to apply to the question of gay animals. Should we now take the moral high ground and try to find a "cure"?????????? |
if you want my opinion, yes we should.
and i am not talking about the headscarf. the headscarf is the least. the girls can ofcource wear their headscarf and practice whatever religion they want. the headscarf is a problem only when it is accompanied with other things.
if we start with extreme examples then i believe we should find "a cure". i said this before: from a professor from canada, who experienced a girl leaving school at the age of 13 to marry, bc that was what her religion (some kind of chistian sect) said. and that was also what the girl "wanted". in this case yes, i believe that the law should be over any religion , and i dont believe that if the girl went five years more in school and then married that this is disrespect for a religion. and even if it is disrespect.. excuse me , butl i dont care.
the same holds for honor killings. perhaps they are accepted in some parts of the world, but when they happen in germany, i believe that the german state should find a cure. yes, of cource it should.
now, where is the line between an extreme case (the honor killing) and an "innocent tradition" (headscarf) , it is always difficult to tell. |
Again that is the point and you made it well. When we look at a head scarf it should not mean honor killings and under age marriage. We should be able to distinguish between them but through ignorance and the help of the media we find it hard to do. We need to look for positive images of the head scarf and see it as liberation for women that choose to wear it. I choose to kiss my parents hand and put it to my forehead because I want to and not because of oppression. They insist it is old fashioned, I insist it is necessary to show my children that respect is important in this world. Now my children do it without a moments hesitation and if they choose to do the same to me when I am old and frail, then I will not turn them away. The head scarf can show girls that promiscuity is not the only option in a difficult world but at the same time they should be taught that religion is not the only reason for them to behave in a moral way. |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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| the question goes back, to the article i posted on the last page. how can we be sure for which girl it is a choise to wear the headscarf and for which is not ? |
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zan
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 962
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| Could it be that it is not up to us and it is up to the parent and to the choice of the individual. Sometimes it is better to leave well enough alone and clean up the extremes. We cannot nanny every thing in life. There is no fix all solutions. It is our fault that we view them with suspicion and try to apply our politically correct westernised ways onto them. The camel has adapted it self for the desert why try to sell them a gas guzzling monster truck. |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4911
Location: London(ish)
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I think there is difference between kids beeing sheepa nd kids being oppressed.
I missed it, but apparently acting black it cool.
The issue today is that parents think that their kids are an extention of themselves.
and the more like their parents the better the kids are, when in actual fact most parents are more concerned with driving an X5 and making sure their kids have the most expensive car |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
| the question goes back, to the article i posted on the last page. how can we be sure for which girl it is a choise to wear the headscarf and for which is not ? |
You can't!
We are all products of our environment, conditioned to accept what is "normal" and what is not. Only way this kid gets to be free is to be given choice to do otherwise and chooses to opt in. Until then, all parents will "determine(guide/force)" what their kids wear, do etc.
For me, the key is tolerance: live & let live. There are fundamentalists of all kinds, in religion and outside (capitalists, communists, bla bla bla). Anyone who threatens their way of life/belief is not tolerated and worse...When it is rammed down kids' throats, it is terrible.
To help, a democratic State can 1) ban the existence of all religious schools so at least in one place, a child is exposed to universal truths; 2) without dictating, encourage debate about what 'norms' parents can impart on kids to give them a stable and balanced upbringing (in UK, research says many more parents want guidance from State re: childrearing and TV best medium). Once adults, they can then choose their path...
That means challenging all forms of fundamentalism! But fairly and consistently. |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4911
Location: London(ish)
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| RudeGal wrote: |
To help, a democratic State can 1) ban the existence of all religious schools so at least in one place, a child is exposed to universal truths; |
universal truths. school fills you with the most crap ever.
school teach you how to pass exams, they dont educate  |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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Last week there was a programme on CH4, UK, about how Muslim sisters had started a "jihad" on UK Islam, so they can attend mosques to pray and be part of the communal life there. Apparently, many mosques refuse women even to pray!! No chance being on their committees as a woman, and as for a female Imam - perish the thought!
Was hilarious to see these strict Muslim ladies (hijab, niqab etc all in full flow) having it out with their Muslim bros over equal rights.
I - of course - was rooting for the women cos if they do enter this sacred/forbidden world, the dynamics change and the extremism can be tempered with real world stuff (why don't the imams deal with violence in the home, or promote the need for girls to be educated and play an equal part in civil society...).
The Islam world is having a big dialogue with itself (still @ start) and I think Turkey can play a big, positive part in that. Islam is about your direct relation with God - no intermediaries. Yet, like all other religions, it's manipulated and misinterpretted/represented. For me, I always felt in Turkey, being a secular citizen and a devout (ish) Muslim goes hand-in-hand. Not anymore. All is becoming so politicised...I am wary of AKP. They have a hidden agenda that is lost in their EU/democracy quest, while military goes off at other extreme...
While I understand it, I don't like the headscarf ban. 80 plus years on after Ataturk banned it, if women have not got the point that this "liberates" them, and it exists through force of Law, then the educators in Turkey have failed to do their jobs! |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| Crash Test Dummy wrote: |
universal truths. school fills you with the most crap ever.
school teach you how to pass exams, they dont educate |
So true. Like, what did I ever gain learning about quadratic equations????
Like so much of the public sector, education needs a good overhauling but I'm sure a 50 something is the least equipped to know what a kid needs to do well in life for his/herself and for better society. |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4911
Location: London(ish)
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Rude Gal - you can find where the co-ordinates intersect the x and y axis on a graph.  |
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