The Finnish example

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

Since we right now have the Finns putting some work into the Cyprus Problem, I thought it could be intersting to have a look at how Finland treats its minority.

In fact I beleive there are many similarities between the Swedish speaking minority in Finland and the Turkish speaking minority in Cyprus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland-Swedes

s300 · Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:58 am Post subject:

Do theyhave a bizonal, bicommunal section for exclusively for each ethnic group?

I don't know anything about Finland.

100%cypriot · Ministerial Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 2181

it may work for finland but i doubt that it would work for Cyprus, don't forget there is no more stuborn people in the entire world like Cypriot's

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

It is great to see everyone's interest in going a little bit outside the old circles...

So, based on the above the question would be: If the Turkish Cypriot part of the Cyprus population was treated like the Swedish Finns, would their quality of life be relatively good? And, would the country as a whole have a better chance at realising its potential?

cypezokyli · Ministerial Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 2344

i do not think , the scandinavian countries can in any way be compared to cyprus. whatever model they use would simply be out of context in cyprus

boomerang · Deputy Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 1133 Location: Melbourne

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

I was not implying any copy/paste of a model - not from Scandinavia, not from Belgium, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia or Montenegro either...
Since there is hardly two countries in the world that has the same system of goverment, copy/paste is most likely no good idea..., at the same time the BBF agreed by the brilliantly succesfull statesmen in 77, or the agreement in 59, has not worked that well either - even in Cyprus.

Still, it could be intersting to discuss which parts would work, and which would not - and above all why.

I think the main issue is to way the importance of effective goverment, able to take decisions, against full concensus - which is most important for the well being of all groups of society.

s300 · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:56 am Post subject:

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

I'd like to expand on that. Basically, should we just (continue to) say that 'this will not work in Cyprus', or should we look a bit deeper on the arguments?

Take the Finnish 'example' as an example. In short it is a 'unitary state' with a formal minority institution to safeguard protection language and religious issues - which comes together as culture.
So, what are the main basis of rejection of such a system - apart from '[not in Cyprus'? To me they can described in short as 'fear', 'pride' and 'greed'.

Fear - mainly with regard to life and physical security; 'they have tried to murder us before and will do it again'. However, I believe that the murders were (unacceptable) consequences of the political conflict - where the conflict was the fact result of the constitutional separation of the communities. It was not a question of that one type of Cypriot wanted to kill and eat the other one. Instead there was a political conflict that could not be easily solved in a democratic way, mainly due to a dysfunctional political system. Failing a political solution some people resorted to violence.
However, note that the Finnish Example largely removes the political conflict - in short, there will be no reason for violence.

Pride - in short, there is the aspect that a Turk can not be ruled by a Greek, and vice versa of course. Tell me it does not play any part at all...

Greed - there is now Greek Cypriot property for billions of pounds in the game. Some Turkish Cypriot will try to easy money from this, others have just without bad intentions sunk their own money into these properties. However, at least in the back of the mind it may play a role when someone says that a physical separation must be maintained.

Possibly someone will also claim that the fear of 'economical discrimination' could play some role. However, the risk of such discrimination is bigger with a BBF than if we follow the Finnish Example; where all individuals are equal it is practically impossible to discriminate based on language.

So, what is the upside of the Finnish Example?

erolz · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

cypezokyli · Ministerial Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 2344

i think pg, you are trying to make a point using a wrong example Wink

the minority in finland is 5%. its different from the 20+% that we will have in a future solution. the literature doesnot give a specific % where only land autonomy is suggested as a solution and when a vetoright needs to be added . but only numberwise the difference is significant.

second, all these countries up there havent had a war between them for centuries. the security dilemma (the most difficult thing to solve in a conflict) is to a huge extent not there. not only the fins didnot try to oppress the swedes, but the swedes themselves werenot didnot consider that as a possibility!
just look how finland ended up having that disputed island. Sweden and finalnd took the matter to the League of Nations (the failed attempt to make a UN!!!) and decided that they would accept its ruling. The LoN gave it to finland and sweden aceepted that! and this was in the 1920s!!!! we are talking about maturity in political thinking that in this part of the world we live in might posess, after 500 years (a very optimistic prediction) .

the necessity of the unity of the state (if it is indeed a neccesity), will have to follow an evolutionary process under our historical circumstances. if we prove mature enough we might even do it alone at some time. on the other hand of we choose the immature path and not cooperate at all , then who knows perhaps the council of europe will "impose" on us a unitary state (see : http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=70051#70051

pg · Deputy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: Cyprus

I would prefer to discuss more the actual issues, and not see if it is possible to do a copy/paste due to the size, percentages, etc.

Note that there are similarities too: Sweden ruled Finland for about 600 years, and so left a minority when leaving, languages are completely different, also Scandinavian countries had substantial massacers of each other (although it was centuries ago).
I think that fear/pride/greed would have been potential issues also in Finland.

The maturity, both of the local politicians and that of the motherlands was probably a big difference compared to Cyprus.

However, I can not see any solution (or no-solution) work without some maturity in both Cyprus, Greece and Turkey - and I would like to say there has been several improvements in most places.
Most likely we need to educate the mothers to stay out of our lives a bit..., and possibly the EU membership will somehow convince the parents it is time to let go...