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| Which is the Fairest solution for the Cyprus problem? |
| A solution based on / or similar to the Anan Plan |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| A solution based on / or similar to the 1960 constitution |
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31% |
[ 5 ] |
| Union of Cyprus with Greece |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
| Devision: two separate and independent countries |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| Other |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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| Author |
Message |
Cyprus rules!
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 668
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
I understand what stav is trying to say, but like cyp rules! says, it is not supported by anyone anymore.
Its a case of thinking the grass is greener on theother side. Now cyprus is an independant country, it would seem ridiculous to join with another, but at the time, no-one knew what an independat cyprus would be like, and enosis seemed the 'natural' thing to do. |
Hi Dhavlos, I've got to say I agree with you..to me it does seem that to the masses, it was the natural thing to do. It fits in with what was happening during that period, with the emergence of Modern Greece, etc..When other Places/regions/Islands that had a numerical Greek majority were joining this new country one by one....but right now, it just, like Dhavlos says, wouldn't make much sense, plus in my experience the idea is pretty dead. People just want reunification, so they can get off with their lives, with a Cyprus that's 'whole'.. |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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| also, just lke to say that from teh young cypriots(well 18-25yr old) when ive asked them about the cyprob...they all put it down to the British that 'made everyone against each other' etc...they said that they dont care if someone is Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot...they are indifferent, but they are also largely indifferent about a solution, because for many, they dont feel liek they come from the north, per-say, as in, their lives have always been in the south. But none have said they are indiffernet ot partition(they are agianst partition) |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Cyprus rules! wrote: |
Hi Dhavlos, I've got to say I agree with you..to me it does seem that to the masses, it was the natural thing to do.
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Sorry but with all due respect by the 'masses' what you actually mean is the mass of one community alone within Cyprus. For Turkish Cypriot there was nothing 'natural' about seeing Cyprus annexed to Greece and them forced to become Greek citizens of a greater hellenic state against their will
| Cyprus rules! wrote: |
It fits in with what was happening during that period, with the emergence of Modern Greece, etc..When other Places/regions/Islands that had a numerical Greek majority were joining this new country one by one.... |
Again I am sorry but I just cannot accept this rationale. What was _totally_ clear by 1950 was that ENOSIS was impossible to achieve without massive struggle , neither Turkey or the Turkish Cypriot could allow enosis. It was also clear by this time that independence was achievable and indeed inevitable in due course.
For a good diagram of modern greece's expansion (and contraction) see here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Greekhistory.GIF |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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| erolz wrote: |
| Cyprus rules! wrote: |
Hi Dhavlos, I've got to say I agree with you..to me it does seem that to the masses, it was the natural thing to do.
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Sorry but with all due respect by the 'masses' what you actually mean is the mass of one community alone within Cyprus. For Turkish Cypriot there was nothing 'natural' about seeing Cyprus annexed to Greece and them forced to become Greek citizens of a greater hellenic state against their will |
i completely agree erol, it was one communitys wishes not anothers, but if you look at it on a per person basis, on a purely individual level, there was (significantly) more people who would have said yes to enosis, than no. if there had been a plebiscite(a proper one  ) or a referendum(a proper one ) then chances are, 80% of the population would be for, and 20% wouldbe against, it would run along ethnic lines, but the fact is, 80% of the inhabitants ion the island would be pro-enosis.
anyway, this is a pointless arguement. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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Do any of you imagine a case in which the Turkish Cypriots were the 82% and the Greek Cypriots the 18% of the people in Cyprus, and the Turkish Cypriots would have tried to get Cyprus united with Turkey in the 50’s, and the Greek Cypriots have tried to oppose such a demand and started a campaign for partition of the island? Can you guess what would have been the outcome? Well, just take a look at the fait of the 1.5 million Armenians, the 400,000 Pontos (black sea) Greeks, the Assyrians and the 350,000 Istanbul Greeks. What happened to them? They were wiped out of the face of Turkey!
I mean, why do we have to take a look at what happened to all the above? Just imagine if the 15 million Kurds would have tried to partition Turkey, in the same way that the Turkish Cypriots have tried in Cyprus. Does anyone of you have any doubt that they would have also been wiped out, like all the above? The Kurdish people are only asking for some basic rights, and we all see and know the reaction of the Turkish Cypriot’s “motherland.”
Imagine the highly unlikely scenario that the 18% minority Greek Cypriots not only escape annihilation, but also manage to obstruct the Turkish Cypriot majority plea for Enosis with Turkey, and also, with the help of a foreign power that occupies 1/3 of Cyprus, they declare their separate state. Does anyone of you believe that Erol would have been writing the same long diatribes that he relentlessly does now, this time against the Turkish Cypriot majority plea for enosis with Turkey? I do not! I mean, look at how many pages has he so far written in favor of the Kurdish pleas in Turkey, and against the policies and practices of the kemalist state. |
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repulsewarrior
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 2152
Location: a cypriot in canada
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| The best solution is three governments. One, the Republic of Cyprus, and two others for the self determination of each community, Greek and Turk in the matters which effect the internal matters of our political lives as Cypriots (Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot). |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Do any of you imagine a case in which the Turkish Cypriots were the 82% and the Greek Cypriots the 18% of the people in Cyprus, and the Turkish Cypriots would have tried to get Cyprus united with Turkey in the 50’s, and the Greek Cypriots have tried to oppose such a demand and started a campaign for partition of the island? |
Firstly Kifeas imagine in such a scenario if you would be arguing that there was only one unitary Cypriot people and that only this combined group had any right to determine Cyprus' future and thus id a majority of only Turkish Cypriot wanted union with Turkey , you would have argued it was their right to have such , regardless of the Greek Cypriot community, their desires and their wishes. You expect me to believe that in this scenario your views on 'self determination' would be consistent? Also let's imagine that Cyprus lay 50 km off the coast of mainland Greece. You think Greece would just have accepted British rule being turned over to Turkish rule without any objection ? Then let's imagine that the Greek Cypriot with the support of Greece and the UK and US (seeking to avoid conflict between nato allies Greece and Turkey) broker a deal like the 60's agreements to protect the Greek Cypriot minority in Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriot just signed this deal and then ignored it, started provoking violence with the Greek Cypriot community, claiming this was a Greek Cypriot uprising, drove 1/3 of them from their homes (and blamed it on Greek Cypriot seeking partition) and made the Greek Cypriot position in government untenable and the Turkish Cypriot aggressors were then rewarded by the international community with recognition of a purely Turkish Cypriot administration as legitimate government of all of Cyprus.
I am in no doubt Kifeas that had the situation been in reverse you would be here now arguing exactly the same things that I argue. That the desire of one community alone can not be considered the legitimate expression of the will of the Cypriot people as a whole, only one part of it. That there was no justice in the international recognition of a Turkish Cypriot only government that had used violence and illegalities against the Greek Cypriot community and was totally in contradiction to the 60's agreements and that such recognition was a function of international political expediency and constituted a rewarding of aggression and illegality. That neither democracy of right to self determination represented a right of Turkish Cypriot to impose and force whatever they liked on the Greek Cypriot community in their own homeland with no regard for the Greek Cypriot communities wishes.
If I thought you had any ability or desire to truly try and imagine yourself in our position to better understand it, then I would ask you to try doing the above. However I have no confidence that you have such a desire or even ability to do such.
Also I would like to think that if the scenarios were reversed I would today be more like Bananiot in my views than Kifeas. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, I do not know. I do however think it is more likely than you being more like Bir than me if the situation was reversed. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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Kifeas wrote:
| Quote: |
| Do any of you imagine a case in which the Turkish Cypriots were the 82% and the Greek Cypriots the 18% of the people in Cyprus, and the Turkish Cypriots would have tried to get Cyprus united with Turkey in the 50’s, and the Greek Cypriots have tried to oppose such a demand and started a campaign for partition of the island? |
Erolz replied:
| Quote: |
| I am in no doubt Kifeas that had the situation been in reverse you would be here now arguing exactly the same things that I argue. |
I don’t think so Erolz. If the situation was reverse, the 18% Cypriots would be either forced out and massacred just like the Greeks in the Aegean coast or become a Greek minority of whole Turkey. Greek Cypriots would live like the Kurds and all we would be capable of asking is some basic human rights. Constantinople was Greek, most of the west coast of today’s Turkey was Greek, Pontos was Greek, in that case Cyrpus was Greek. Turkey’s policy would rule “Earless natives, imported patriots”!
Birkibrisli wrote:
| Quote: |
| Get over ENOSIS,and lets see what other options we have to solve this neverending tragedy which is the Cypro... |
I never thought Enosis as a feasible solution so I don’t need to give it up, but I don’t think I will ever give up the idea of Enosis being the fairest solution (never say never). Makarios never gave up the idea of Enosis but he compromised for a different solution!!! I do see other options and I support something like repulseworrior is saying but only as transitional period.
Erolz wrote:
| Quote: |
| …the Turks in thrace (who still today are unable by Greek law to call themselves or their assoiations turkish) |
How are you so sure about that? In fact I have seen a Turkish association, club - whatever it was in Thessaloniki, I was there for a protest 15/11/2005. All I know about Thrace is from the personal experience of a friend of mine and when I told him about what you people wrote, he said ‘bullshit, I lived there 5 years and I didn’t see any discrimination against the Turks, except the older generations who still keep the hatred inside them’.
Erolz wrote:
| Quote: |
| The fact is that enosis, even of the kind you describe would have been disaterous for the Turkish Cypriot community in Cyprus… |
In what way disastrous? It does not make much difference for Turkish Cypriots living in Republic of Cyprus or Greece. I am sure there will be anti-discrimination laws and Turkish Cypriots will be able to freely maintain their own culture and have equal human rights. In fact I believe Turkish Cypriots will be better of than today.
The only difference will be the label Turkish-Greek instead of Turkish-Cypriot. But well, in today’s world intangible national labels are very significant for people.
DP wrote:
| Quote: |
We are all............................. EU citizens:
Country of residence................Cyprus:
Language & Religion?..............WHO CARES? |
A very good way of thinking but I was disappointed with EU when traveled last year. There are still customs and when I went to France from England apparently as an EU citizen they didn’t let me through because I only had €20 on me. I tried to convince them “I am an EU citizen, I can live anywhere I want right, plus my girlfriend is French and she will host me”, their respond “not with €20, if you don’t find you girlfriend, where are you going to stay with 20€, what to eat etc”. DP do you go from one state of Aus to another do you see customs, You’re a homeless in NSW or in VIC, same shit, but EU… mate, EU needs a lot of development, is not as perfect as we think it is. |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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stavrizatz
| Quote: |
I don’t think so Erolz. If the situation was reverse, the 18% Cypriots would be either forced out and massacred just like the Greeks in the Aegean coast or become a Greek minority of whole Turkey. Greek Cypriots would live like the Kurds and all we would be capable of asking is some basic human rights. Constantinople was Greek, most of the west coast of today’s Turkey was Greek, Pontos was Greek, in that case Cyrpus was Greek. Turkey’s policy would rule “Earless natives, imported patriots”!
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and in the same post you say that we would be;
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In what way disastrous? It does not make much difference for Turkish Cypriots living in Republic of Cyprus or Greece. I am sure there will be anti-discrimination laws and Turkish Cypriots will be able to freely maintain their own culture and have equal human rights. In fact I believe Turkish Cypriots will be better of than today.
The only difference will be the label Turkish-Greek instead of Turkish-Cypriot. But well, in today’s world intangible national labels are very significant for people.
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Your showing your one sided thinking when your concerns for living as a minority in Turkey are valid but when you place us as a minority in Greece our concerns and fears don't count.you even claim we would be better off...do you think that fair? |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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stavrizatz
| Quote: |
How are you so sure about that? In fact I have seen a Turkish association, club - whatever it was in Thessaloniki, I was there for a protest 15/11/2005. All I know about Thrace is from the personal experience of a friend of mine and when I told him about what you people wrote, he said ‘bullshit, I lived there 5 years and I didn’t see any discrimination against the Turks, except the older generations who still keep the hatred inside them’.
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Send the following letter to you friend maybe he lives with his head in the sand like many of you.
| Quote: |
UNITED NATIONS
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
SUB-COMMISSION ON THE PROMOTION
AND PROTECTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
WORKING GROUP ON MINORITIES
ELEVENTH SESSION
GENEVA 30 MAY-3 JUNE 2005
Agenda Item 3a
MUSLIM TURKISH MINORITY OF WESTERN THRACE – GREECE
Thank you Mr. Chairman,
My name is Tzemil Kapza; I represent Western Thrace Minority University Graduates Association in Greece.
INTRODUCTION
An estimate number of 150.000 ethnic Turks live in the northeast part of Greece. Members of the Muslim Turkish Minority who have been living in this region for centuries identify themselves as ethnic Turks.
Although Greece is a full member of the European Union, signed and ratified most of the international instruments protecting basic human rights, the Greek state unfortunately continues to ignore its obligations regarding the recognition and the protection of the rights of the Muslim Turkish Minority of Western Thrace as well as the rights of other existing ethnic minorities in Greece, such as the Macedonian.
DENIAL OF ETHNIC IDENTITY
The violation of the right of the minority to identify itself as “Turkish” is a major problem today. In early years Greek authorities made it obligatory for the minority to identify itself as “Turkish” and its members as “Turks”. This policy was later changed. The designation of the minority associations as “Turkish” has been forbidden. Although the Xanthi Turkish Union had been legally operated from 1927 until 1983 the Supreme Court of Greece in its final decision on 7th February 2005 dissolved the Union because of the term “Turkish” in its title. Furthermore, the same court rejected the application of registration of the Rodopi Turkish Women’s Cultural Association for the same reason. Both cases, now, await for submission before the European Court of Human Rights. Greece denies the existence of any ethnic minority but recognizes only a “Muslim” minority.
Article 2 (4) of the UN Declaration on Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities states that: “Persons belonging to minorities have the right to establish and maintain their own associations”. Also, in article 1 (1) of the same declaration it is stated that: “States shall protect the existence and the national or ethnic, cultural, religious and linguistic identity of minorities within their respective territories and shall encourage conditions for the promotion of that identity.” This is also supported by Article 19 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights on Freedom of Expression. I also should remind the 1994 General Comment by the UN Human Rights Committee on Article 27 of the ICCPR: “It makes clear that the existence of minorities does not depend on the state decision but is to be established by objective criteria; and that non-citizens and even non-permanent residents of state qualify protection under Article 27.”
Taking into consideration these international instruments the continuously denial of the ethnic identity of the minority is against the statue of the minority which was established and is under protection by section III of the Peace Treaty of Lausanne, 1923. Therefore, I propose that Greek authorities should recognize the existence of the Turkish Minority and cease violating their rights as an ethnic group.
RELIGIOUS RIGHTS
Greece officially recognizes only a “Muslim Minority” within the state.
Article 6 (g) in the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion, states the right to: “Train, appoint, elect, or designate by succession appropriate leaders called for by the requirements and standards of any religion or belief”, which is also supported by Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights and Article 1 of the UN Declaration of Persons Belonging to Minorities. In addition to these international instruments the religious rights of this minority are also guaranteed by Athens Treaty of 1913, the Greek Law no: 2345/1920 and the Peace Treaty of Lausanne. Article 28 of the Greek Constitution also guarantees the implementations of the international treaty obligations.
The offices of the Mufti of Komotini and Xanthi are still composed of people appointed by the Greek government. Contrary to the wishes of the Turkish Muslim Minority in Western Thrace, who consider Mr. Mehmet Emin Aga and Ibrahim Serif as their mufti, the Greek state does not recognize them as the religious leaders of the minority. Furthermore, in 1984 the government punished three imams who were teaching the holy Quran in mosques. The imams refused to pay the punishment. As a result, the finance officers have sequestrated their properties.
Another area of controversy is about the Turkish Muslim Minority’s control over its social and charitable organizations (Waqfs). At present, while most of the Waqfs are still managed by people who were appointed by the government during the rule of the military junta of the 60’s the officials who died are replaced by new appointees. For example, on 10th of January 2005 the Greek government appointed new executive committee for the Waqfs in the region of Xanthi.
The Greek government should be encouraged to create positive environment for the Turkish Minority to exercise their freedom of worship and choose of their own religious leaders.
EDUCATIONAL RIGHTS
The Peace Treaty of Lausanne guarantees the Educational rights of the Muslim Turkish Minority. Articles 40 and 41 of the Treaty provides equal rights for the minority to establish, manage and control at their own expenses any schools…(40)… and adequate facilities for ensuring that primary school instruction shall be given to children trough their own language…(41)… The central authority constantly interferes in and undermines the autonomy of the minority education system through different ways such as the selection, training and appointment of teachers in the minority primary schools. The Greek state started establishing nurseries in almost every village inhabited by Turks, which caused deep resentment within the minority community and undermined the already weak system of teaching in the mother tongue.
In Article 4 (3) of the UN Declaration on the Rights on Persons Belonging to Minorities it is stated that: “States should take appropriate measures so that, wherever possible, persons belonging to minorities have adequate opportunities to learn their mother tongue.” This is supported by Article 26 (1) and (3) of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. I should also note that all these practices of the Greek state in the field of minority education are against the Hague Recommendations Regarding the Educational Rights of National Minorities (1996).
Mr. Chairman
In conclusion, I would recommend that the Greek state should implement its obligations of the international instruments which is a party to and ratify the Council of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, which signed in 1997.
Thank you Mr. Chairman
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Turkey and Greece have totally different standards on Human Rights. I have to admit that Turkey is improving however Turkey has long way to reach the standards of Greece. Anyway I got sick of arguing about that Enosis, pretent that I never said anything about Enosis and that I just want peace and freedom. |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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| If you havent realized you have seen how against this whole idea we are yet you continued to push it in our faces. ALl Cypriots are pig headed and we will never solve anything. We all deserve what we have today becuase we are no better than those ignorant people who caused all this mess in the first place. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Quote: |
| If you havent realized you have seen how against this whole idea we are yet you continued to push it in our faces |
Did I ever push or enforce my ideas to you? I came up with an argument - it is a discussion forum, what we should keep silent. I met up with a Turkish Cypriot yesterday and he told me "We don't like Greece just like you don't like Turkey". I wonder, what did Greece do to Cypriots so as to dislike Greece so much. Don't tell me the 'coup' because that was by junta, a dictatorship regime of Greece. Turkey on the other hand...well you came up with peace operation.
About the article, I have to admit that yes it did change a little bit my view on Thrace, but again it was a commision of Human Rights, and the article was by Tzermil Kapsa, I believe the desision of the commision would be more reliable. Again my friend was telling me about about how was life living there and people between them mixed very well etc. "He said" Tzermil Kapsa said also that Turkish associations cannot have the name 'Turkish'. In Thessalloniki there was the Kemal house next to the Embassy and it said the Turkish something" I don't remember whether it was house, union, club something like that. So how can it be that Turkish association cannot have the name Turkish on them...it doesn't make sense to me.
| Quote: |
| We all deserve what we have today... |
We diserve it because a 70 million country invaded a tiny island to serve their own interest...wake up. |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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stavrizatz whats frightening is you are a young Greek Cypriot with blinkered views, you elders are more tolerant and understanding of the Turkish Cypriots plight which was at the hands of Greek Cypriots wanting to turn Cyprus into Greece. This was an error which led to where we are today, if you are unable to see this then you need to go talk to people who lived in those times not only Greek Cypriots but Turkish Cypriots as well. Only then will you get a better picture of what went wrong.
| Quote: |
About the article, I have to admit that yes it did change a little bit my view on Thrace, but again it was a commision of Human Rights, and the article was by Tzermil Kapsa, I believe the desision of the commision would be more reliable. Again my friend was telling me about about how was life living there and people between them mixed very well etc. "He said" Tzermil Kapsa said also that Turkish associations cannot have the name 'Turkish'. In Thessalloniki there was the Kemal house next to the Embassy and it said the Turkish something" I don't remember whether it was house, union, club something like that. So how can it be that Turkish association cannot have the name Turkish on them...it doesn't make sense to me.
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Well there are many articles and documented complaints made against Greece about their handling of the Thrace issue just take the time to read the story from the other side.
As for the birthplace of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, this could hardly be erased and turned into Greek Muslim as it would be to obvious to thousands of international visitors who would start to question your antics with regards to Turks. The political backlash would be far to great if they attempted to alter anything at the museum dedicated to the founder of the Young Turks of today.
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| We diserve it because a 70 million country invaded a tiny island to serve their own interest...wake up. |
Just one sunny day because they felt like it, get real and start to grow up and open your eyes, cause if you are our joint future we are doomed.. |
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Dream_Merchant
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Limassol
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| Viewpoint wrote: |
| Just one sunny day because they felt like it |
no, just one sunny day because it suited them. |
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