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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| Quote: |
| Erdogan has already made a massive concession over Cyprus just by signing the customs treaty |
Erol, Erdogan knew at the time that what he was signing he wasn't going to honour...
How do I know that?...because the pledges were made before the signature...He was going to sign and then say well you didn't keep up your pledge so I am not honouring my signature...
The difference is he took 25 heads of state for a ride and these people ain't gonna forget this in a hurry...Most don't give a continental about Cyprus...All they see is the non honouring of signature via lying by a head of state...
Next time Turkey signs something there will be a tighter contract to avoid any hassles, and Turkey will be screaming they are moving the goal posts again...You see the problem?
I said it before and I will say it again...Take the Republic of Cyprus and the kurds out and Turkey will stil have problems adhering to EU norms...Turkey calls it sacrifices and the EU calls it harmonization...Someone should throw an English to Turkish dictionary to Erdogans way...
Another think that springs to mind...with Turkeys EU aspirations, wouldn't the islamists have greater freedom?...How would the army react in this situation?
And Mic nice to see you back... |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Erdogan has already made a massive concession over Cyprus just by signing the customs treaty |
Since when a country’s obligation that has emerged as a result of its desire, application and acceptance to be considered as a candidate for becoming a member of a club, can be regarded a concession -set aside a massive one? |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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If Turkey did not want to open its ports to all member states (be they recognised by turkey or not), then sheshould not have signed the agreements to do so!
simple as, like moose said in another post(international section) , the negotiations are not negotiations, they are rules and norms for applicant countries to fulfil. They cannot pick and choose, or ask for something in return. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The northern Cypriots are deeply secular people. Not in some ideological Kemalist way but in their very bones. If these MP's and their new party become blatantly islamic in their nature they will not retain their seats in the next election |
how about the settlers? |
It is true that the settlers are more islamic and less secular than Turkish Cypriot in general. It is also true that they a numerically, economically and politically a smaller and weaker force in the north than Turkish Cypriot are. It is also true imho that if you look at the bulk of those settlers that have been here the longest and their children born here they have become more cypriot than they have made Turkish Cypriot turkish.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
and
why would erdogan want serdar out of the goverment ? |
It is not clear that he does. It is currently unkown if or to what degree Turkey played a part in the formation of this new minority party with breakaway MP's from the existing minority parties. The existing minority parties are crying 'foul' but they would wouldnt they ? The Turkish ambassador in the north is denying any involvement of Turkey, but he would wouldnt he ? If Turkey has played a role here then I believe it is to enable CTP to be more 'progressive' over the cyprus issue - which is also to Turkeys benefit.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
why would talat cooperate with such a party ? |
CTP must work with someone else. 50% of theparliamentaryy seats is not enough to push through the kind of reforms they want to push through. Nor is the 50+1 of CTP plus BDH. They tried working with DP and that has failed. Now some MP's from UBP and one from DP are using this reality in a bid to create a new party and gain some power. If however they turn out to be as or more obstructive to CTP's agendas then this coalition will fail like the previous CTP DP one has.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
are there any polls in the press btw ? |
Not that I am aware of but then I don't speak Turkish.
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Since when a country’s obligation that has emerged as a result of its desire, application and acceptance to be considered as a candidate for becoming a member of a club, can be regarded a concession -set aside a massive one? |
When a new government of a country reverses their policy on an issue that has been held for the previous 30 years, even when doing so is a requirement of joining a 'club' then that is a concession. Turkey has done things towards Cyprus that were unthinkable 5 years ago. In return Greek Cypriot respond by saying this means nothing and Turkey must keep making these concession while we have to do nothing. That is a dead end route.
| Dhavlos wrote: |
If Turkey did not want to open its ports to all member states (be they recognised by turkey or not), then sheshould not have signed the agreements to do so!
simple as, like moose said in another post(international section) , the negotiations are not negotiations, they are rules and norms for applicant countries to fulfil. They cannot pick and choose, or ask for something in return. |
Turkey signed the protocol in the expectation and belief that the EU would honor its commitments to Turkish Cypriot people and Turkey over Cyprus. It is not about 'negotiation' it is about the EU making good it's comitments and about if the Republic of Cyprus tail will be allowed to wag the EU dog or not. The bottom line is if the EU is unable to meet its comitments made to the Turkish Cypriot people (before the Republic of Cyprus joined the club) because of Republic of Cyprus parochial intransigence, then not only is the customs protocol doomed but so is Turkish EU entry - a scenario where everyone looses, which is apparently what TP would prefer to one where everyone wins if he can not get one where the Republic of Cyprus wins and Turkey looses. If the Republic of Cyprus gets away with blocking the EU efforts to make good on their commitments to Turkish Cypriot whilst forcing Turkey to make comply then this will never end. The next demand that the Republic of Cyprus will claim Turkey must comply with , whilst making no concession herself will be recognition and then removal of troops. This approach will only and can only result in the ending of Turkish accession and desire and will in Turkey for EU entry -which will be a disaster for Cypriots let alone everyone else. Yet this is the policy of TP in the pursuit of the maximal approach of Turkey must make concession after concession and when have to do nothing, give no ground accept no compromise that we do not like.
This whole recent crisis could have been avoided if the Republic of Cyprus had not blocked the EU commissions package for the Turkish Cypriot people after the Annan plan vote. It is the Republic of Cyprus blocking of that EU package (and all subsequent ideas not originating from the Republic of Cyprus) that has created the crisis, which is exactly what TP wanted and wants - in order to test out his 'EU solution' theory of forcing compromise from Turkey whilst offering none himself. He probably believes he can not loose, in that either Turkey gives in or if she does not she is blocked from EU entry and the Republic of Cyprus looses nothing. This kind of belief is fundamentally misguided and dangerous imho. The affects of the end of Turkish Eu accession and the desire and will for such within Turkey will have massive and unpredictable consequences for Turkey the EU the Republic of Cyprus the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and the world. But what does TP care for any of this in his game of seeking a maximal 'EU solution' to the Cyprus problem. Even now this crisis could be avoided and averted - all the Republic of Cyprus has to do is accept that the EU , the UN and the world made commitments to the Turkish Cypriot people after the anan plan and that it should not block the efforts to meet these commitments. If it did this then there would be no crisis re Cyprus and Turkish accession, Turkish ports would be open to Cypriot ships and the EU would not have have its image tarnished by pledging to do something and then failing to meets those pledges. However all this is being thrown away and much more risked by the Republic of Cyprus in a determination to keep an economic and political strangle hold on the Turkish Cypriot people that the UN and the EU (Republic of Cyprus included!) has committed to end. |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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I agree that Tpap is probably not going the right way with trying the maximal approach...getting something from nothing.
However, and correct me if i am wrong. Did Turkey and the EU SIGN anything that tied Turkish membership/negotiations with access/flights etc to the north of cyprus?
OR was it 'expected' and talked about afterwards. Cos if turkey did not sign anything tieing the two together, then to be honest she has nothing to stand on.
Also, just like to add i think that blocking the money/package for the north was incorrect by the Republic of Cyprus.
If i can be proved wrong, then im sorry, but i havent seen anything/remember anything about Turkey signing an agreement that hernegotiations were tied to access to the north. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
| However, and correct me if i am wrong. Did Turkey and the EU SIGN anything that tied Turkish membership/negotiations with access/flights etc to the north of cyprus? |
There was no 'contractual' linkage in the signing of the protocol by Turkey. However when she signed it the EU had already made its pledges and commitments to the Turkish Cypriot people. Let me ask you Dahvlos if I pledge and committed in writing to do 'x' in your favour and you subsequently pledge to do 'y' - and there is no 'linkage' in your agreement, would you go ahead and do the x you agreed to do regardless of if I have done the y I agreed to do?
| Dhavlos wrote: |
OR was it 'expected' and talked about afterwards. Cos if turkey did not sign anything tieing the two together, then to be honest she has nothing to stand on. |
When Turkey signed the protocol the EU had already made (in writing) its commitments to the Turkish Cypriot people. Turkey wanted a specific linkage in signing the protocol and the EU refused to give this. However it was always clear that Turkish implementation was dependent on the Eu delivering on it's promises to the Turkish Cypriot people. If the reality is the EU pledges to do x, but actually was lying and is not going to do x (or can not do it because of Republic of Cyprus obstructionism) then why should Turkey just lay down and say 'oh well the promised to do x but have not done it - let's forget it'. Not only should Turkey not accept such from the EU in reality Erdogan can not accept it even if he wants to, because he would loose power and control in Turkey and much support within Turkey for Eu accession if he allowed the EU to break it's pledges to the Turkish Cypriot people without any effective protestation about such failure on the part of the EU.
This really is about what role the EU is able to play re the Cyprus issue. Either it will be able to exert some effective pressure on the Republic of Cyprus to compromise (along with turkey) - in which case it can and will be part of the solution, or it will not be able to exert any such pressure on the Republic of Cyprus to make compromises along with those required by Turkey for accession - in which case it becomes part of the problem and the Republic of Cyprus as one of the newest and smallest members will have succeeded in thwarting the will of the EU in general in favor of her own parochial interests. If this happens I personaly think the EU (or those parts that feel thwarted by the Republic of Cyprus) will extract their revenge in one form or another and no doubt the already rue the day they agreed to personally entry before a solution. |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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| Quote: |
| When Turkey signed the protocol the EU had already made (in writing) its commitments to the Turkish Cypriot people. Turkey wanted a specific linkage in signing the protocol and the EU refused to give this. |
im sorry erol, but if this is what has happened, then turkish membership is not connected to the north.(in my eyes)
If the EU made a seperate agreement with teh north about the issue, then why should something else (turkish memebrship) be linked to it, if such a linkage was refused beforehand?
| Quote: |
| then why should Turkey just lay down and say 'oh well the promised to do x but have not done it - let's forget it'. Not only should Turkey not accept such from the EU in reality Erdogan can not accept it even if he wants to, because he would loose power and control in Turkey and much support within Turkey for Eu accession if he allowed the EU to break it's pledges to the Turkish Cypriot people without any effective protestation about such failure on the part of the EU. |
then why on earth did he sign the Ankara agreement, if he was not happy about the issue in the north?
With Cyprus in the EU, and 'unhappy' with Turkey, it will be impossible for Turkey to really progress without having to compromise either the north, or its relations with teh EU-therefore stop negotiations (this s all assuming a solution does not occur).
Personnally, i think the Republic of Cyprus is going the wrong way about the issue, and instead should let funds from the EU go to the north, then at least they would have even more of a foot to stand on when saying 'open up to our ports'.
The situation is really ridiculous, and at teh moment, all i can see is negotiations being paused, until someone moves on the issue, or a solution is found(over cyprus, or the issue in hand). |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| a compromise will be found and everyone will call it a victory and we will debate it for the next 6 months...the road for a solution is a rocky one |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Dhavlos wrote: |
then why on earth did he sign the Ankara agreement, if he was not happy about the issue in the north? |
He signed the agreement to give the EU time to honor it's commitments. He could have called of accession there and then or he could have signed the protocol , making it clear that it would not be implemented until the EU also made good on it's promises and commitments. I have no doubt that the EU at the time it was signed gave assurances that it's pledges to the Turkish Cypriot people would be honored and I also have no doubt that people within the EU have been doing their utmost to achieve this and have been blocked by the Republic of Cyprus at every turn.
| Dhavlos wrote: |
With Cyprus in the EU, and 'unhappy' with Turkey, it will be impossible for Turkey to really progress without having to compromise either the north, or its relations with teh EU-therefore stop negotiations (this s all assuming a solution does not occur). |
Which is why the EU made a big mistake in allowing the south to enter the EU before a settlement. Turkey is willing to compromise to gain EU entry but not unilaterally. The Republic of Cyprus is essentially trying to force Turkey into unilateral concession re Cyprus by blackmailing it over EU entry. Ironically enough one of the reasons given for allowing the Republic of Cyprus own EU entry without a prior settlement was that their entry should not be held hostage to the Turkish Cypriot community. Yet it seems that it's ok for Turkish entry to be held hostage to the Republic of Cyprus ? And people wonder why in Turkey there is a feeling of 'double standards' as far as the EU goes !
| Dhavlos wrote: |
a compromise will be found and everyone will call it a victory and we will debate it for the next 6 months...the road for a solution is a rocky one |
I hope you are right boomer. It is the EU way and historically it has managed to find a compromise on any number of issues. However it may be that Republic of Cyprus intransigence is something that even the EU historical and legendary ability to broker a compromise is no match for  |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1739
Location: Canada
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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Turkey has made it totally clear that it is committed to trying to find a resolution to the current impasse. They have said what their 'red line' is (unilateraly implementing the customs protocol whilst the EU does nothing to honor its promises to the Turkish Cypriot people). They have said that they will consider and discuss anything to solve this problem. The hope is that the new coalition government in the north will be more able to be flexible, creative and innovative as far as finding solutions. However this STILL requires the Republic of Cyprus to stop thinking it demand and gain everything from Turkey whilst giving not a millimeter itself in any regard. There is no way forward whilst the Republic of Cyprus believes it can blackmail Turkey and the EU and there is no requirement or need for it to compromise on anything. This is the politics of madness. The idea that the Republic of Cyprus can have behaved how it did re the Annan plan (remember EU commissioners express feeling 'betrayed' over this do you ?), then go on blocking the EU from meeting comittments that the Republic of Cyprus herself signed up to whilst all the while insisting that Turkey make compromise after compromise re Cyprus. It is the same myopic and insular world view that led Cyprus into disaster in the first place. Its all so depressing. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1739
Location: Canada
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| I know...thirty years of Denktash, and then politicians with cold feet... then again,... what do you expect when there is a 90 million pound gorilla in your adversary's corner. |
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