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turkcyp
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Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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As the usual suspects managed to kill the other topic, I am opening this topic one more time. Please this time stick to the topic at hand.
I am pasting the CM’s post about CNA statement and going form there.
| cannedmoose wrote: |
For those of you looking for this in English, here's the CNA press release on this...
| wrote: |
COREPER – Turkish Cypriots – FINANCIAL REGULATION
The EU Committee of Permanent Representatives (COREPER) reached a decision in Brussels on the financial regulation for the Turkish Cypriots and the terms under which the regulation for direct trade with the Turkish occupied areas of Cyprus could be achieved.
The agreement will be sent to the General Affairs Council, to convene on Monday. It will be approved as a Point A without discussion.
With the decision, the demands of the Republic of Cyprus are met, namely the decoupling of the two regulations and changing the legal basis for the direct trade regulation, which now comes under protocol 10, meaning that for approval there must be consensus and that Famagusta port opens under European Commission administration, Varosha is opened for resettlement by its legal inhabitants, and there is a moratorium on the further development of Greek Cypriot properties in the occupied areas.
Cyprus` Permanent Representative to the EU Ambassador Nicos Emiliou described the decision as ``the first result of the visit by President Tassos Papadopoulos to Vienna and the meetings he had with the Austrian presidency of the EU.``
Emiliou pointed out that the decision was positive for the Turkish Cypriots, as it released the amount of 139 million euros.
The initial amount was 259 million euros, of which 120 million were lost as the date up to which it could be allocated had expired.
The direct trade regulation will be sent for further discussions with the changes agreed on unanimously by the 25 member states.
Sources said the European Commission welcomes today`s decision but will be awaiting the approval from the General Affairs Council on Monday before making an official statement. |
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| wrote: |
With the decision, the demands of the Republic of Cyprus are met, namely the
1) decoupling of the two regulations and
2) changing the legal basis for the direct trade regulation, which now comes under protocol 10, meaning that for approval there must be consensus and
3) that Famagusta port opens under European Commission administration,
4) Varosha is opened for resettlement by its legal inhabitants, and
5) there is a moratorium on the further development of Greek Cypriot properties in the occupied areas. |
I guess we can separate this into these topics.
1) The reason Turkish Cypriots did not want these to be decoupled was because they know that once these are decoupled there is no way the direct –trade will be approved by the EU. But overall I do not think this was a big deal.
2) Good going. Changing the legal basis to protocol 10, means that there will be no direct-trade. That’s what Turkish Cypriots meant. So with this above two points, in effect EU (under Greek Cypriot pressure) is saying to Turkish Cypriots that all we can help you is money. Good going in deed. As it was money we asked for. You give money once it’s over in one year, you open avenues for our self-development like direct-trade and direct-flights then we will not need your money in the future. But that is what Greek Cypriots wanted from the beginning anyway. To make us depended on them, so that they can control how the water flows all the time. Good going EU.
3) I wonder with which authority will EU operate this port. As the current legal framework stands, they can not. EU can only operate this port if Republic of Cyprus gives them permission to do so. But what if after one year Republic of Cyprus turns back and says the EU we do not want you to operate our sovereign port anymore. This actually in effect means transfer of Famagusta port to jurisdiction of Republic of Cyprus, and is not acceptable.
The whole issue is not Famagusta anyway. What does Turkish Cypriots have to sell to EU anyway. A big nothing. The main issue is direct-flights which can bring tourism. Under the name of direct trade the main issue is always dodged. If they say Ercan and Famagusta, then it MAY be accepted by the Turkish Cypriots. But as it stands right now, we do not need their charity.
4) I think this will happen this year anyway. Most probably the property commission in north this year will decide that all the pre-74 Greek Cypriot inhabitants of Varosha may in fact turn back. But unfortunately for Greek Cypriots, it will not happen as they wish. They will be forced to settler as Louzidiou, meaning they will be forced to turn back under Turkish Cypriot administration.
Why do you think Louzidou is not turning back to Kyrenia. It is not because she can’t anymore. Authorities already kicked the current occupants out, and are ready to give her deeds. But she does not want that because she will be given Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus deeds like everybody else in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Every pre-74 Republic of Cyprus deed is replaced by Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus deed in the north. This is true not just Greek Cypriot properties but also pre-74 Turkish Cypriot properties as well.
So if she (and all the Varosha people) turns back and accept Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus deeds, and start paying taxes like everybody else, start paying fees like everybody else in north to authorities then they can come. But we all know this is not what they want. But all these will be coming to daylight this year.
5) You can not have this. How about all the pre-74 Turkish Cypriot deeds. Will they be given construction permits. You can not have double standards in a country. Doing this would be elimination of the whole Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which hardly will be accepted by any Turkish Cypriot. It is the last ace in their hands against their poker opponents (Greek Cypriot) which has other 3 aces.
And this issue will die this year anyway, with British Courts dealing giving validity to deeds that Oram’s hold. This will also come into daylight this year in 2006.
This whole EU thing is very stupid from the beginning anyway. EU can not tell the countries to open or close any airport to any air traffic. I do not understand why Turkish Cypriots are forcing this issue anyway. Simply say we do not accept anything from EU, we do not want anything from EU. WE just want them to tell Greek Cypriots to come back to negotiating table because the only way this Cyprus problem can be solved is at the table by negotiating.
What couple of hundred million Euros will help Turkish Cypriots. NADA. |
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cypezokyli
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Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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thanks for re-posting that turkcyp
as a general comment, what i have to say is : since we dont sit our asses on the table and start discussing, thats how the cyppro will look like in the future. court trials, and mooves of "good will" that have hidden political motives behind them, and cant fool either side... what can i say ? this is the road our leaderships have chosen, and i am not happy about it. everything reminds me of the ledras incident, which is for me a micro-example of what the cyppro has turned into 
as for the points :
| Quote: |
1) The reason Turkish Cypriots did not want these to be decoupled was because they know that once these are decoupled there is no way the direct –trade will be approved by the EU. But overall I do not think this was a big deal.
2) Good going. Changing the legal basis to protocol 10, means that there will be no direct-trade. That’s what Turkish Cypriots meant. So with this above two points, in effect EU (under Greek Cypriot pressure) is saying to Turkish Cypriots that all we can help you is money. Good going in deed. As it was money we asked for. You give money once it’s over in one year, you open avenues for our self-development like direct-trade and direct-flights then we will not need your money in the future. But that is what Greek Cypriots wanted from the beginning anyway. To make us depended on them, so that they can control how the water flows all the time. Good going EU.
3) I wonder with which authority will EU operate this port. As the current legal framework stands, they can not. EU can only operate this port if Republic of Cyprus gives them permission to do so. But what if after one year Republic of Cyprus turns back and says the EU we do not want you to operate our sovereign port anymore. This actually in effect means transfer of Famagusta port to jurisdiction of Republic of Cyprus, and is not acceptable.
The whole issue is not Famagusta anyway. What does Turkish Cypriots have to sell to EU anyway. A big nothing. The main issue is direct-flights which can bring tourism. Under the name of direct trade the main issue is always dodged. If they say Ercan and Famagusta, then it MAY be accepted by the Turkish Cypriots. But as it stands right now, we do not need their charity. |
in short, i dont think that , so long it is in our hands we will allow any form of dierct trade, direct flights, or any lifting of embargos simply bc, it is our only ace against you. it is sad, but thats how it is imo. you have the armies and we have the embargos, and the only way for the two to leave is a comprehensive solution.
| Quote: |
4) I think this will happen this year anyway. Most probably the property commission in north this year will decide that all the pre-74 Greek Cypriot inhabitants of Varosha may in fact turn back. But unfortunately for Greek Cypriots, it will not happen as they wish. They will be forced to settler as Louzidiou, meaning they will be forced to turn back under Turkish Cypriot administration.
Why do you think Louzidou is not turning back to Kyrenia. It is not because she can’t anymore. Authorities already kicked the current occupants out, and are ready to give her deeds. But she does not want that because she will be given Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus deeds like everybody else in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Every pre-74 Republic of Cyprus deed is replaced by Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus deed in the north. This is true not just Greek Cypriot properties but also pre-74 Turkish Cypriot properties as well.
So if she (and all the Varosha people) turns back and accept Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus deeds, and start paying taxes like everybody else, start paying fees like everybody else in north to authorities then they can come. But we all know this is not what they want. But all these will be coming to daylight this year. |
now this exactly what we do 
it was also proposed by the TDN editorial. you give sth, but have your political aims behind.
if i manage for a minute to see such a process as an outsider my prediction will be : the Greek Cypriots will be reluctant in the beggining. perhaps some will take the risk in getting their land back and accepting the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". then, i believe we will be talking about a "critical number" of Greek Cypriots doing that. after a specific number do, get their land back then - i believe - there will be no more patriotism left, and then all will rush to get whatevers left to get.
if sth like that happen, our goverment will try to avoid reaching the "critical number"
| Quote: |
You can not have this. How about all the pre-74 Turkish Cypriot deeds. Will they be given construction permits. You can not have double standards in a country. Doing this would be elimination of the whole Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which hardly will be accepted by any Turkish Cypriot. It is the last ace in their hands against their poker opponents (Greek Cypriot) which has other 3 aces.
And this issue will die this year anyway, with British Courts dealing giving validity to deeds that Oram’s hold. This will also come into daylight this year in 2006. |
i agree with continuing the constracton industry, at Turkish Cypriot properties. on the Greek Cypriot properties - i disagree, but i also dont see how we can convince you otherwise.
as for the orams, it will indeed be a turning point. i dont know why you are sure that the orams will win... will see, anyway.
| Quote: |
This whole EU thing is very stupid from the beginning anyway. EU can not tell the countries to open or close any airport to any air traffic. I do not understand why Turkish Cypriots are forcing this issue anyway. Simply say we do not accept anything from EU, we do not want anything from EU. WE just want them to tell Greek Cypriots to come back to negotiating table because the only way this Cyprus problem can be solved is at the table by negotiating.
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agree 100% |
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MicAtCyp
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
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The Varoshia is an un-inhabitable place. If they are ruturned to the Republic of Cyprus they will need at least 5 years to be inhabitable. After that some few people will return- about 20% of the original inhabitants. On the other hand if the occupied regime tells the Greek Cypriots OK you can return under my rule, you will not find even one Greek Cypriot who will return. First because the town is un-inhabitable and you need a higher authority to spend billions to make it inhabitable, second because not even one Greek Cypriot is that crazy to spend his lifetime savings renovating a house and be under the rule of the occupation regime. Its like turning himself a hostage and paying his lifetime savings on top of it.
PS. Since when is it a policy to lock threads because of one member. I had something to reply there why did you lock the thread without giving us a notice to post our final messages?  |
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-mikkie2-
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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| Quote: |
| And this issue will die this year anyway, with British Courts dealing giving validity to deeds that Oram’s hold. This will also come into daylight this year in 2006. |
And what makes you say this turkcyp?
The case in the UK is about enforcement of court decisions taken in Cyprus in another EU state, in this case the UK. It is not about the validity of 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' title deeds! It is already evident that title deeds issued by the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' are null and void as far as international law is concerned. |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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Location: World
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
The Varoshia is an un-inhabitable place. If they are ruturned to the Republic of Cyprus they will need at least 5 years to be inhabitable. After that some few people will return- about 20% of the original inhabitants. On the other hand if the occupied regime tells the Greek Cypriots OK you can return under my rule, you will not find even one Greek Cypriot who will return. First because the town is un-inhabitable and you need a higher authority to spend billions to make it inhabitable, second because not even one Greek Cypriot is that crazy to spend his lifetime savings renovating a house and be under the rule of the occupation regime. Its like turning himself a hostage and paying his lifetime savings on top of it.
PS. Since when is it a policy to lock threads because of one member. I had something to reply there why did you lock the thread without giving us a notice to post our final messages? |
Isnt it easier to just knock it down and rebuild it? those buildings in Varosha suffer from concrete cancer, the sea salt has corroded the iron bars of the windows, trees are growing out of houses, cactus plants are sticking out of shell holes and the streets are covered with tumble weed. |
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-mikkie2-
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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| Quote: |
| Isnt it easier to just knock it down and rebuild it? those buildings in Varosha suffer from concrete cancer, the sea salt has corroded the iron bars of the windows, trees are growing out of houses, cactus plants are sticking out of shell holes and the streets are covered with tumble weed. |
Err, I think thats what MicAtCyp is getting at! Why would the Greek Cypriots spend billions of their own money reconstructing Varosha under Turkish Cypriot control? He is right. They will NEVER do that so it will remain a ghost town. It will take many years for the city to be assesed, for buildings to be checked, to decide what to knock down, to decide what to renovate etc etc. |
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Bullika
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Isnt it easier to just knock it down and rebuild it? those buildings in Varosha suffer from concrete cancer, the sea salt has corroded the iron bars of the windows, trees are growing out of houses, cactus plants are sticking out of shell holes and the streets are covered with tumble weed. |
Err, I think thats what MicAtCyp is getting at! Why would the Greek Cypriots spend billions of their own money reconstructing Varosha under Turkish Cypriot control? He is right. They will NEVER do that so it will remain a ghost town. It will take many years for the city to be assesed, for buildings to be checked, to decide what to knock down, to decide what to renovate etc etc. |
Its a pity it has been unoccupied for so long. I would have liked to have seen it returned to its owners. Nobody is living there so why not? Varoisha was inhabited by a good 30,000 people that would have reduced the number of refugees by a large margin. |
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Eric Dayi
Warnings : 5
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Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 1017
Location: ESSEX
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COREPER HAS APPROVED THE RELEASE OF THE 139 MILLION EUROS WORTH OF AID TO NORTH CYPRUS
The European Union’s General Affairs and External Relations Council, which will convene tomorrow in Brussels, is expected to approve the COREPER’s proposal on Financial Aid Regulation without debating it.
The Council will focus on preparations for the March European Council and on follow-up work on the EU Budgetary framework for 2007-2013.
The European Union’s Committee of Permanent Representatives or COREPER agreed earlier to separate the Financial Assistance and Direct Trade Regulations and approved -at an extraordinary meeting of COREPER on Friday night- the release of the 139-million Euros worth of aid to North Cyprus as part of the Financial Assistance Regulation.
The approval of the aid had been stalled for two years due to disagreement on whether to separate the two regulations.
The draft proposal will now need to be approved by the European Council.
Commenting on the COREPER’s decision, the Presidential Palace said that the Regulation was approved without the consent of the Turkish Cypriot Side with the aim of avoiding a Greek Cypriot veto.
Complaining that the Regulation is far from meeting the Turkish Cypriots’ expectations, it called on the Committee to reconsider its decision.
The statement also noted that the decision taken by COREPER may be harmful to a comprehensive solution to the Cyprus problem and urged COREPER to call the Greek Cypriots to the negotiating table to discuss the United Nations peace plan.
http://www.brt.gov.nc.tr/ENews/2006/022006/260206/COREPE.htm |
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pg
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006
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Returning to the original subject of the discussion,
If this trade deal is implemented, would it mean that the Turkish Cypriot community will be able to trade in way they need? |
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Eric Dayi
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Joined: 19 Dec 2005
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Location: ESSEX
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| pg wrote: |
Returning to the original subject of the discussion,
If this trade deal is implemented, would it mean that the Turkish Cypriot community will be able to trade in way they need? |
No it doesn't. It means that they are offering us Turkish Cypriot's 139mil in aid so that we can still be kept under embargoes and without the simplest human rights to trade. In other words they are saying "take the money and shut up, the Greek Cypriot shave more rights than any Turkish Cypriot!" |
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MicAtCyp
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005
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| Bullika wrote: |
| Isnt it easier to just knock it down and rebuild it? those buildings in Varosha suffer from concrete cancer, the sea salt has corroded the iron bars of the windows, trees are growing out of houses, cactus plants are sticking out of shell holes and the streets are covered with tumble weed. |
In fact that is the only solution. Problem though the government is just going to do the infastructure to make it inhabitable (electricity, telephones,roads, parks, sweage system etc) HOWEVER she is not going to spend a single pound for my own house. In fact my wife has 4 houses there. So who is going to do that? Me and my wife were in dept for as long as I remember. She was a refugee with no single penny when we got married and I was the son of a merchant who got totally bankrupt after 74.
Unfortunately we dont even have the money to pay a bulldozer to knock the houses down. |
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turkcyp
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Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 423
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| MicAtCyp wrote: |
| The Varoshia is an un-inhabitable place. If they are ruturned to the Republic of Cyprus they will need at least 5 years to be inhabitable. After that some few people will return- about 20% of the original inhabitants. On the other hand if the occupied regime tells the Greek Cypriots OK you can return under my rule, you will not find even one Greek Cypriot who will return. First because the town is un-inhabitable and you need a higher authority to spend billions to make it inhabitable, second because not even one Greek Cypriot is that crazy to spend his lifetime savings renovating a house and be under the rule of the occupation regime. Its like turning himself a hostage and paying his lifetime savings on top of it. |
Good points.
| MicAtCyp wrote: |
PS. Since when is it a policy to lock threads because of one member. I had something to reply there why did you lock the thread without giving us a notice to post our final messages? |
I agree. There are some freedom of speech issues in this forum. If we are going to lock the thread for stupidity like this, then we are not going anywhere. I advise admin that instead of closing threads just simply separate threads into two when people start getting away from the issue at the topic.
For example: Topic “Turkcyp is an idiot” got out of hand, then separate the topic into two as (a) “Turkcyp is an idiot – Original” (b) “Turkcyp is an idiot – Slugfest”
| MicAtCyp wrote: |
In fact that is the only solution. Problem though the government is just going to do the infrastructure to make it inhabitable (electricity, telephones,roads, parks, sewage system etc) HOWEVER she is not going to spend a single pound for my own house. In fact my wife has 4 houses there. So who is going to do that? Me and my wife were in dept for as long as I remember. She was a refugee with no single penny when we got married and I was the son of a merchant who got totally bankrupt after 74.
Unfortunately we dont even have the money to pay a bulldozer to knock the houses down. |
Feasibility of the hold resettling Varosha will be very hard, I agree with Mic. But it is not as bad as you guys thought. The reason is many individual houses are in better shape then the high rises you see bombed. So I believe there are many individual homes that can be brought into livable shape with not that high investment.
In any case that is the fate of many Turkish Cypriot properties in south too. I have explained to you guys what happened to my home. It simply does not exist anymore. NADA. So basically there is no place for me to turn in south.
But many of those tall buildings which were hotels, and businesses. They probably will have to be torn down.
And as Mic, said I would not expect any help from any government (Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus or Republic of Cyprus) to fix homes. Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus however will probably provide the infrastructure.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
And what makes you say this turkcyp? |
It is just my opinion that I had formed after reading statues and talking to some lawyer friends, both in Cyprus and USA. Their words was “the case is very weak”.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
The case in the UK is about enforcement of court decisions taken in Cyprus in another EU state, in this case the UK. It is not about the validity of 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' title deeds! It is already evident that title deeds issued by the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' are null and void as far as international law is concerned. |
Actually that is not true. What is not legal is Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus itself. As far as I understood from my inquires, in law there is separation of “legality of laws” and “legality of law makers”. In sounds very strange but in cases like Cyprus, there are ample of evidence and cases where the laws of “de-facto illegal authorities” may be hold “legal”. You may think as illegal authority giving legal laws, but it works that way.
As far as I understand, this is how Oram’s are going structure their defenses. They will say that Republic of Cyprus may be legal authority, but de-facto they do not have authority over Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This opens a can of worms for Republic of Cyprus. First of all UK does not have to enforce Republic of Cyprus court case, because Republic of Cyprus does not have the power to enforce the decision. Secondly in cases of personal nature, every case has to be decided at the crime jurisdiction, which makes it de-facto Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Just because Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is not a legal entity this does not make court decisions automatically illegal. They may be or not, but not automatically illegal. Thirdly and finally the British court will probably throw the case because it is against the public policy of UK. In other words UK is not forced to enforce a decision made in anther EU country if it is against public policy of UK.
Anyway, these are what I hear, and as I have said I am no lawyer so I simply made my mind through consultations. I may be wring about my prediction, but I guess we will wait and see, right? |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| Eric Dayi wrote: |
| pg wrote: |
Returning to the original subject of the discussion,
If this trade deal is implemented, would it mean that the Turkish Cypriot community will be able to trade in way they need? |
No it doesn't. It means that they are offering us Turkish Cypriot's 139mil in aid so that we can still be kept under embargoes and without the simplest human rights to trade. In other words they are saying "take the money and shut up, the Greek Cypriot shave more rights than any Turkish Cypriot!" |
It is clear that the 'aid package' does not in itself cover trade. However, my question was related to the 'trade part'. If that is accepted, would it facilitate the required trade? |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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| Turkcyp wrote: |
| So I believe there are many individual homes that can be brought into livable shape with not that high investment. |
True.
Anyway my wive’s houses are 30m away from the sea. I think the bulldozer is the only solution.They didn’t let us go see them though, after the opening of the gates….
| wrote: |
| In any case that is the fate of many Turkish Cypriot properties in south too. I have explained to you guys what happened to my home. It simply does not exist anymore. NADA. So basically there is no place for me to turn in south. |
Ahh, yes we all tend to think of our own troubles only, and we tend to overlook the suffering of our fellow man. I am very sorry to hear that Turkcyp. (I never heard of your story perhaps you told it when I was away). And it is a fact that most Turkish Cypriot houses dont exist anymore... As far as I am concerned you are most welcome at every place you want to live. How about the house you bought at Paphos using the name of your offshore company, at least for vocations?
*************
Anyway back to our discussion, so far we did not hear anything from Turkey or the Turkish Cypriot side. Any news?Do I see some silence, some thinking over it, or am I wrong? |
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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1466
Location: Australia
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Can somebody enlighten me on this issue:
The financial aid and the direct trade regulations have been split.
For direct trade the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will have to give back Varoshia,open the Famagusta port jointly under the EU control,and agree to a moratorium on Greek Cypriot land developments in the North. Am i right so far?
What is the condition for getting the financial aid (139M euros)?
Is there a condition? |
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