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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| De_La_Soul wrote: |
If they fled because of Greek Cypriot violance...then why did the TMT feel that they had to murder members of the Turkish Cypriot community, who oppsed Taksim, to make a point? I suppose conveniently enough, this had nothing to do with Turkish Cypriots fleeing but the intercommunal violance did? You have to accept that Turkish Cypriots who had their own agenda also instilled fear in their own community and not soley blame Greek Cypriot as is convenient. |
Some extreme members of TMT did kill Turkish Cypriot that they considered opposed the Turkish Cypriot cause as TMT defined it - that is true - though they killed less Turkish Cypriot than EOKA, Akritas and EOKA B extermists killed Greek Cypriot for 'opposing' their cause. It is also true that there is credible evidence that TMT use fear and violence against SOME Turkish Cypriot to stop them returning to the homes the have fed from. What there is NO credible eveidence for , is that TMT used fear and violenece against Turkish Cypriot to make them flee thier homes in the first place. The simple facts speak for themselves when they are not being murderd for propaganda reasons.
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/patrick%20chp%203%20pt%202.htm
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| The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. Most refugees expected to return to their homes within a few months at the most, and it was this assumption of an early return that facilitated their departure in the first place. In some instances, the evacuation of certain villages was encouraged by the expectation of an imminent invasion by Turkey. There was an understandable desire to withdraw from Greek-Cypriot areas which might become bombing targets of the Turkish air force. It was only in a few instances, after January 1964, that the Turkish-Cypriot Leadership took the initiative in recommending that certain villages should be evacuated. However, it is known that such advice was not always followed. Normally the Leadership was approached by village elders only after the villagers had already decided to evacuate, and they sought the Leadership's assistance In the pro- vision of transport and refugee housing. Any official administrative organization to direct refugee movements, or to oversee their welfare, was not established until the bulk of the refugees had already moved on their own initiative. |
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| Although it appears unlikely that there was any centralized co-ordination of the Turk-Cypriot refugee exodus, there is ample proof that Turk-Cypriot political and military leaders controlled the return of refugees to their former homes. It is known that in late 1964 some local Fighter commanders resorted to armed threats and even murder to prevent some refugees from moving into government controlled areas,[69] but it is not known to what extent such actions were directed or condoned by leaders in Nicosia. However, such coercion should be put in perspective. The government was prepared to encourage the return of Turk-Cypriot refugees provided that they accepted government authority and that they did not return to 'sensitive' areas. Such areas included locations adjacent to Turkish-Cypriot enclaves or National Guard positions, and also mixed villages in which returned Turk-Cypriots would outnumber Greek-Cypriots. In addition, known Fighter leaders were specifically prohibited from returning. The acceptance of such pre-conditions would have won for the government the victory that it had failed to achieve by its armed offensive. In addition, the hostility of many local Greek-Cypriots was such that Turk-Cypriots did not believe that the government could fulfill its guarantees that returning refugees would not be molested. In any case, by August 1964, the abandoned homes were looted and often burned-out ruins. Neither community had the resources to rebuild the houses, to purchase new farming equipment or to provide resettlement grants. The side that undertook such indemnities would also be tacitly admitting to a degree of responsibility in the creation of the refugee problem, and that neither community was prepared to do. |
This is the most detailed indpendent study of this period and this issue. The author and his work is described (on cyprus conflict site) as
| Quote: |
| This period, which has very different meanings in the two dominant political narratives, is meticulously described by the Canadian scholar Richard A. Patrick, who was an officer in UNFICYP in the late 1960s and pursued his interest in the Cyprus conflict as a doctoral student in political geography at the London School of Economics. This research, published as Political Geography and the Cyprus Conflict, 1963-1971, is considered among the most authoritative accounts of the period. Below is Chapter Three from this classic work. |
There is the truth of the matter (that the overwhealming majority of Turkish Cypriot fled their homes because of Greek Cypriot violence and the threat of it) and then there is your propaganda De La Soul (Turkish Cypriot fled their homes because they were told to by a Turkish Cypriot leadership and intimidated into doing so by Turkish Cypriot thugs).
I am just sick and tiered of this constant regurgitated bullshit. If we can not accept a Canadian scholar and their meticulously and detailed study of this period that is considered among the most authoritative accounts of the period, as a valid assesment of what actually happened, but instead 'chose' to beleive one sided propaganda that has no evidencary support, then there is no hope for us ever resolving the problems we now live with.
De La Soul - you are murdering the truth. You are doing this because you care not for truth, only for trying to deny the truth when it reflects badly on your community in Cyprus. The day when you are willing and able to accept the truth (as presented by people like Richard A. Patrick and not your own propagandaists) is the day we start to have a chance of putting things right. I am not holding my breath in your case if you are the person I think you are on cyprus forum. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
Some extreme members of TMT did kill Turkish Cypriot that they considered opposed the Turkish Cypriot cause as TMT defined it... |
Erol, what was the Turkish Cypriot cause as TMT defined it? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| erolz wrote: |
Some extreme members of TMT did kill Turkish Cypriot that they considered opposed the Turkish Cypriot cause as TMT defined it... |
Erol, what was the Turkish Cypriot cause as TMT defined it? |
Is that the only comment you have to make ?  How saddening that this appears to be the only thing of interest to you. No appraent interest in the 'core' of what is being said (why did Turkish Cypriot flee thier homes in 63-64), just trying to pick up a point that you think will show Turkish Cypriot in a bad light.
I do not know what TMT's cause was , officaly or otherwise. Certainly there WERE elements in it that wanted to secure partition of Cyprus, at any cost and via any means - even brutal and illegal means using violence against Turkish Cypriot as well as Greek Cypriot. I do not think they were a majority or dominant within TMT. I think the bulk of TMT saw it's cause as being the physical defense of Turkish Cypriot from Greek Cypriot aggression and resistance to ENOSIS.
Keep telling me that Turkish Cypriot fled their homes in 63-64 because they were persuing a distant uncertain political objective that REQUIRED Greek Cypriot aggression against Turkish Cypriot to have any hope of working or were forced to do so by Turkish Cypriot extermists, if you must. But understand this NOTHING undermines settlement and my personal willingness to compromise or take risks to secure it more than this kind of historical revisionism. The facts are plain and clear (a rare situtation in any conflict or in Cyprus). There was concerted planned Greek Cypriot agression led by the INTERIOR MINISTER (and most likely know about by others in government too inclusding Makarios) of a government claiming to represent ALL cypriots against Turkish Cypriot and THIS was the primary reason 1/4 of ALL Turkish Cypriot fled their homes - 10 years BEFORE any Greek Cypriot had lost land at the hands of Turkish intervention. This is just FACT. Deny it, seek to distract from it, seek to make out it was actually Turkish Cypriot that were the primary cause if you MUST. But realise the consequences of doing such. |
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De_La_Soul
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1131
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| Quote: |
| It is also true that there is credible evidence that TMT use fear and violence against SOME Turkish Cypriot to stop them returning to the homes the have fed from. What there is NO credible eveidence for , is that TMT used fear and violenece against Turkish Cypriot to make them flee thier homes in the first place |
This is a mere play on words. So if the TMT also did there bit to keep up the air of violance (as there is substantial proof of this in the Cyprus Conflict link you posted)...in order to segregate the communities...you think that stopping Turkish Cypriots from returning home is ok? You cannot read between the lines here!? At the end of the day, the TMT wanted segregation and went to measures such as murdering there own to do this? You think the segregation that occured was ALL the doing of Greek Cypriots!? The proof is staring you in the face!
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There is the truth of the matter (that the overwhealming majority of Turkish Cypriot fled their homes because of Greek Cypriot violence and the threat of it) and then there is your propaganda De La Soul (Turkish Cypriot fled their homes because they were told to by a Turkish Cypriot leadership and intimidated into doing so by Turkish Cypriot thugs).
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What I said was that the segregation that formed had much to do with the enforcement of the TMT as well as the inter communal violance. Besides, the TMT did there bit to keep up the fighting so stop putting the word 'violance' next to Greek Cypriot only, as if aggression was exclusive to Greek Cypriots.
What is evident here is that you talk about both sides messing up but cannot come to terms to specific points of history were Turkish Cypriots were much to blame...its like your briefly mention Turkish Cypriot wrong doings then brushing it under the carpet.
| Quote: |
am just sick and tiered of this constant regurgitated bullshit. If we can not accept a Canadian scholar and their meticulously and detailed study of this period that is considered among the most authoritative accounts of the period, as a valid assesment of what actually happened, but instead 'chose' to beleive one sided propaganda that has no evidencary support, then there is no hope for us ever resolving the problems we now live with.
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You must be a black belt at assumption making.
| Quote: |
| De La Soul - you are murdering the truth. You are doing this because you care not for truth, only for trying to deny the truth when it reflects badly on your community in Cyprus. The day when you are willing and able to accept the truth (as presented by people like Richard A. Patrick and not your own propagandaists) is the day we start to have a chance of putting things right. I am not holding my breath in your case if you are the person I think you are on cyprus forum. |
As much as I hate cliches, you really cant handle the truth and come over very insincere when admitting to Turkish Cypriot wrong-doings in the whole Cyprus problem issue. The evidence is staring at you in the face, especially when reading the Cyprus Conflict..but instead you decide on a play of words and sentence structure. |
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Gardash
Senior Villager
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 274
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I quote:- ''I really dont buy that ALL Turkish Cypriots left there land for fear of their lives as opposed to the idea of setting up an illegal Turkish Cypriot state....and if they left in 1963, I find it hard that they left for their safety....''
So why is the really cool Turkish Cypriot Tylliros dry cleaner I use when im in the Green Lanes area in London? It seems a bit dumb to leave Tylliria to go to London to promote Taksim. Maybe we need to swallow the fact that both sides are real people rather than Machiavellian schemers.
By the same yardstick please dont be so quick to say Greek Cypriot condoned the activities. Some people seem to forget that the left was getting a pummeling by Yiorkadjis et al at the same time. They also forget that many of our own felt they were safer not knowing.
I also don't understand how the TMT could be trained, armed and mobilised in such a brief period if the constitutional amendments were the spark. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| De_La_Soul wrote: |
| You think the segregation that occured was ALL the doing of Greek Cypriots!? The proof is staring you in the face! |
Where exactly have I EVER said that segregation was ALL the doing of Greek Cypriot? The simple fact is I have NEVER said this - still facts are not something that you are too concerned about apparently.
What I have said - and is su[pported by vast amounts of evidence and Mr Patricks detailed study is this
| Quote: |
| the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees fled their homes only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. |
I say this because it is TRUE AND supported by vast evidence and indpendent detailed studies. So De La Soul can YOU say this. Are you capable of saying (admitting) it is ture. If you are not capable of doing this , as I suspect then your hypocrasy below becomes rank in the extreem.
| De_La_Soul wrote: |
What I said was that the segregation that formed had much to do with the enforcement of the TMT as well as the inter communal violance. Besides, the TMT did there bit to keep up the fighting so stop putting the word 'violance' next to Greek Cypriot only, as if aggression was exclusive to Greek Cypriots.
What is evident here is that you talk about both sides messing up but cannot come to terms to specific points of history were Turkish Cypriots were much to blame...its like your briefly mention Turkish Cypriot wrong doings then brushing it under the carpet. |
In this thread ALONE I have said
| Quote: |
| Certainly there WERE elements in it that wanted to secure partition of Cyprus, at any cost and via any means - even brutal and illegal means using violence against Turkish Cypriot as well as Greek Cypriot. |
and
| erolz wrote: |
| Some extreme members of TMT did kill Turkish Cypriot... |
and
| erolz wrote: |
| It is also true that there is credible evidence that TMT use fear and violence against SOME Turkish Cypriot to stop them returning to the homes the have fed from. |
And from this you accuse me of
"stop putting the word 'violance' next to Greek Cypriot only, as if aggression was exclusive to Greek Cypriots. "
and
"its like your briefly mention Turkish Cypriot wrong doings then brushing it under the carpet."
Have you no SHAME????
| De_La_Soul wrote: |
As much as I hate cliches, you really cant handle the truth and come over very insincere when admitting to Turkish Cypriot wrong-doings in the whole Cyprus problem issue. The evidence is staring at you in the face, especially when reading the Cyprus Conflict..but instead you decide on a play of words and sentence structure. |
Can you do it De La Soul? Can you say
"the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees fled their homes only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. "
Can you admit this fact that is staring YOU in the face - can you handle this TRUTH or will you continue to try and find ways to avoid having to do this?
I admit Turkish Cypriot violence and culpability - and I am insincere (according to you). You admit no such on the part of Greek Cypriot - and yes you probably ARE sincere in doing this. Sincerely determined to murder the truth, deny or minimise Greek Cypriot worngdoing whilst all the time accusing others of doing so.
The stench of your hypocrasy in this regard is overwhealming in my humble opinion. |
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Gardash
Senior Villager
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 274
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Incidentally, has anyone else noticed how we ALL have tendencies to refer to 'cores of extremists' on our side and then tar the entire other side with the worst they did?
Just a thought for the day... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Gardash wrote: |
| So why is the really cool Turkish Cypriot Tylliros dry cleaner I...... |
Gardash you (along with some others) are a breath of fresh air, you reinvigorate my hope and your our best chance for a better future for all cypriots. Thank you.
How long before someone brands you a traitor I wonder ? |
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Gardash
Senior Villager
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 274
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Hehe heard that a couple of times but never twice from the same mouth...
Shall we time it?
Im happy to get a better source of info than Brit property owners in the North
Mia ratsa-Bir Kibris |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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Erol, I wish I could be as patient as you are when confronted with pure ignorance and arrogance.
| De_La_Soul wrote: |
What is evident here is that you talk about both sides messing up but cannot come to terms to specific points of history were Turkish Cypriots were much to blame...its like your briefly mention Turkish Cypriot wrong doings then brushing it under the carpet.
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You blame Turkish Cypriots for 1963 events, you claim that Turkish Cypriots left their homes for an idelogy between 1963-1974, you certainly blame Turkish Cypriots your community's losses in 1974, so what's left for Greek Cypriots? Why don't you come out clean and admit that you think it's all our fault? So we don't end up wasting time... |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| A lot of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot left Cyprus as well in the early 60's...I think the writing was on the wall.. |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2876
Location: Australia
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Who ever took Turkish Cypriot land and developed illegally should pay for their crimes:BUT let me tell you theses same people would rip off Greek Cypriot as well!!!!
Believe me! |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| erolz wrote: |
Can you do it De La Soul? Can you say
"the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees fled their homes only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. " |
Still waiting De La Soul ?
I am still breathing the stench of your hypocrasy where you accuse others of sweeping their sides wrongoing under the carpet, of being unable to handle the truth, of not being able to accept evidence that is staring them in the face.
Still waiting but with little hope or expectation. |
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De_La_Soul
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1131
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| Quote: |
I say this because it is TRUE AND supported by vast evidence and indpendent detailed studies. So De La Soul can YOU say this. Are you capable of saying (admitting) it is ture. If you are not capable of doing this , as I suspect then your hypocrasy below becomes rank in the extreem.
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Yeah I can admit that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots fled there homes because of fear of potential Greek Cypriot violance...but who played an equal role in keeping the violance going?
Are you capable of admitting that Turkish Cypriot's did as much to create violance and a problem in Cyprus as Greek Cypriots...are you capable to admitting that that there were Turkish Cypriots who's main aim was to keep violance up in Cyprus and even sell out the lives of their own people by wanting Greek Cypriot's to murder Turkish Cypriots...or raping and murdering there own to make an example of those who did not want segregation. Can you admit that it is Turkey who has been commiting THE main crime on the island for the last 31 years and that far more Greek Cypriots have died, been abused, molested and raped at the hand of Turks and Turkish Cypriots since 1963 to this present date? Can you admit that while you accuse Greek Cypriots of commiting violance against your community, REAL LIVE ethnic cleansing has been carried out against Greek Cypriots from the north of Cyprus?
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What I have said - and is su[pported by vast amounts of evidence and Mr Patricks detailed study is this
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Why dont you post a bit more from that passage or writing Erolz...so people see what is really said in that study, instead of one-line highlights. Why dont you post the part where Mr Patrick states that around 30% of the Turkish Cypriots who were presumed dead because of inter communal violance were those who actually died at the hands of the TMT, while he also predicts that the numbers of Greek Cypriots who died at the hands of Turkish Cypriots were actually higher than officially stated.
| Quote: |
And from this you accuse me of
"stop putting the word 'violance' next to Greek Cypriot only, as if aggression was exclusive to Greek Cypriots. "
and
"its like your briefly mention Turkish Cypriot wrong doings then brushing it under the carpet."
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You continually use term 'Greek Cypriot violance'...but I have never seen you use the term 'Turkish Cypriot violance'.
and you continue to push aside the matter of Turkish Cypriot violance and actions of the TMT. You do not elaborate on it and continue to use words like 'SOME' when talking about the TMT killing, raping, abducting etc there own.
| Quote: |
Have you no SHAME????
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Who do you think you are? Jeremy Kyle?
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I admit Turkish Cypriot violence and culpability - and I am insincere (according to you). You admit no such on the part of Greek Cypriot - and yes you probably ARE sincere in doing this. Sincerely determined to murder the truth, deny or minimise Greek Cypriot worngdoing whilst all the time accusing others of doing so.
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Again specifically editing research and making assumptions for the sake of your emotional and twisted posts (you should be a politician)....do YOU have no shame?
Please post, where according to me...I denied all Greek Cypriot crimes. As for minimising, well I am not going to sit back and let people like you shift all the blame on Greek Cypriots where common sense and the same evidence you read shows otherwise.
| Quote: |
| You blame Turkish Cypriots for 1963 events, you claim that Turkish Cypriots left their homes for an idelogy between 1963-1974, you certainly blame Turkish Cypriots your community's losses in 1974, so what's left for Greek Cypriots? Why don't you come out clean and admit that you think it's all our fault? So we don't end up wasting time... |
I never said that I exclusively blamed Turkish Cypriots for 1963 or ANY events...but I do blame many Turkish Cypriots today for refusing sincerely admit and look into the crimes their community inflicted on themselves and the outcomes that occured because of those crimes...instead of blaming those outcomes on what Greek Cypriots did. Again, like Erolz, you are making assumptions and putting words in my mouth.
When are Turkish Cypriots going to SERIOUSLY look at themselves for the troubles that occured??? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| De_La_Soul wrote: |
| Yeah I can admit that the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots fled there homes because of fear of potential Greek Cypriot violance... |
Finally ! A shame that such a simple admission of truth has to feel like pulling teeth, but still you have finally accepted this reality. Oh and the phrase was "Greek Cypriot violence or the fear of it" not just '"fear of it" - but let's not be nit picky here.
| De_La_Soul wrote: |
but who played an equal role in keeping the violance going? |
Elements on both sides sought to create and continue intercommunal violence to futher their own agendas. I have adminted this and stated it COUNTLESS times, both here and elsewhere.
| De_La_Soul wrote: |
Why dont you post a bit more from that passage or writing Erolz...so people see what is really said in that study, instead of one-line highlights. Why dont you post the part where Mr Patrick states that around 30% of the Turkish Cypriots who were presumed dead because of inter communal violance were those who actually died at the hands of the TMT, while he also predicts that the numbers of Greek Cypriots who died at the hands of Turkish Cypriots were actually higher than officially stated. |
I could post the entire article but what would be the point I provided the links necessary for anyone to read such. I have posted the parts (verbatamin) that are relevant to dismissing YOUR propaganda. As for your 'quoting' of Mr Patrick's work where exactly does it say
| De La Soul wrote: |
| around 30% of the Turkish Cypriots who were presumed dead because of inter communal violance were those who actually died at the hands of the TMT |
I can see where it says
| Quote: |
| It is probable, however, that the figures for Turkish-Cypriot deaths include some who were killed accidentally by their own hand or by other Turk-Cypriots. |
but I can see no mention of 'around 30%' or of these deaths being attributed solely to the actions of TMT.
And you have the gall to accuse me of being selective? Selective I may be but at least I post the link to the entire article AND quote it verbatamin, not 'paraphrase' it like you have done adding my own distortions.
| De La Soul wrote: |
You continually use term 'Greek Cypriot violance'...but I have never seen you use the term 'Turkish Cypriot violance'. |
The you are quite simply blind.
In this thread ALONE (and once more) I have said
| erolz wrote: |
| Certainly there WERE elements in it that wanted to secure partition of Cyprus, at any cost and via any means - even brutal and illegal means using violence against Turkish Cypriot as well as Greek Cypriot. |
Not only do I refer to Turkish Cypriot violence I also brand it BRUTAL.
and
| erolz wrote: |
| It is also true that there is credible evidence that TMT use fear and violence against SOME Turkish Cypriot to stop them returning to the homes the have fed from. |
Again a referance to Turkish Cypriot violence. Again from this VERY thread. Again one tjhat I have now stated intialy, re quoted to you when you dirst made your accusation,re re quoted to you again when you make the accusation again !
Yet still you claim " I have never seen you use the term 'Turkish Cypriot violance'."
Are you ill? Do you have some kid of selective blindness ? You can find countless refereances of mine to Turkish Cypriot use of violence. How mnay referances of yours can we find to 'Greek Cypriot violence' I wonder - aprat from the single one I finally managed to extract from you above?
| erolz wrote: |
| and you continue to push aside the matter of Turkish Cypriot violance and actions of the TMT. You do not elaborate on it and continue to use words like 'SOME' when talking about the TMT killing, raping, abducting etc there own. |
I talk of TMT using terror and violence agains some Turkish Cypriot because that is totaly accurate. Or are you saying that TMT terrorised every single Turkish Cypriot that was not part of TMT ?
| De La Soul wrote: |
Again specifically editing research and making assumptions for the sake of your emotional and twisted posts (you should be a politician)....do YOU have no shame? |
When I quote extracts from sources I provide links to the entire source in full and quote passages exactly as they appear in the orginal. Can you say the same of your own selective quotes from such sources?
| De La Soul wrote: |
When are Turkish Cypriots going to SERIOUSLY look at themselves for the troubles that occured??? |
Clearly a dam site sooner that YOU will ever be able to do re your sides culpabailites and actions! |
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