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Leon
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England
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| Which is the correct spelling: Gibrizlidja, Gibrislija, or Kibrislica (with all the accents of course)? |
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garbitsch
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 767
Location: Cyprus
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None, there is nothing called gibrizlidja or kibrislica, its Mem's imagination  jokin. |
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Leon
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England
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| But, really, which is right? |
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garbitsch
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 767
Location: Cyprus
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| It's Kıbrıslıca. but since there is no such language we do not consider it as a word. But according to this 'language' Kıbrıslıca should be spelled as Gibrizlidja |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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| garbitsch wrote: |
| It's Kýbrýslýca. but since there is no such language we do not consider it as a word. But according to this 'language' Kýbrýslýca should be spelled as Gibrizlidja |
no sure its all a lie, we all speak turkish thats why in istanbul or izmir nobody understands us.
it does exist, come on garbitsch, i expect better from you! we speak it and you dont realise it! thats like saying kurdish doesnt exist, in the past people would say Kurdish was not a language, or that it was "mountain turkish", people only object to it being a language for political reasons but among linguists it is very much undebated as a language.
even if what we speak in Cyprus may only be spoken by 225,000, may have come about through the speak of peasants makes not a jot of difference.
it still makes it a language. And dont tell me language is not dialect, because dialect is simply a description or variety of language, in the same way that idiolect and sociolect are also descriptions. The only difference between language and dialect is that one is more general or abstract in meaning and the other is detailed or particular. i dont deny gibrizlija is a dialect, of course it is, you are right but it is also a language. it has to be a language before it is a dialect if you know what i mean.
I choose the spelling Gibrizlija because thats how it was spelt by a guy who writes for Londra Gazetsi every week, he writes in Gibrizlija and this is how he spelt it. Theres no uniform way of doing this as written gibrizlija is only beginning to come about in the last decade or so. I have seen people spell it all kinds of ways, though leon, you can choose which way works for you.
If you are referring to the spelling on the website, I did it in two ways on purpose because the letter ĵ from Esparanto did not come out clearly.
Last edited by Bullika on Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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you have to decide from what point of view in linguistics do you argue that it is not a language. there are various schools of thought, i support the antropological linguist argument
| Quote: |
| Anthropological linguists define dialect as the specific form of a language used by a speech community. In other words, the difference between language and dialect is the difference between the abstract or general and the concrete and particular. From this perspective, no one speaks a "language," everyone speaks a dialect of a language. Those who identify a particular dialect as the "standard" or "proper" version of a language are in fact using these terms to express a social distinction. Often, the standard language is close to the sociolect of the elite class. |
basically this is what i have already said above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect
Last edited by Bullika on Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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garbitsch
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 767
Location: Cyprus
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Well they do understand me in Turkey. 
Memo, you are right that Cypriot Turkish is distinct from standard Turkish but I do not consider it as a seperate language. It's an accent ($ive, agiz etc). This is not my opinion, but the vast majority of T.Cs.
Kurdish on the other hand is a distinct language with totally different grammar and vocabulary. You cant say that Cypriot Turkish is such distinct language as Kurdish. |
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Leon
Senior Villager
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 240
Location: England
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Since we're out of the chat room, we can discuss this better. K?br?sl?ca is most definitely not a language, just as Kypriaka, Cockney, Geordie, Scouser, Brummie, Sicilianu, Pig Latin etc. aren't.
In fact you coud be right by saying that nobody speaks a language, but dialect(s). I'm tired now so I'm off to zzz. Will discuss it more at a later date.
Osay, oday ouyay inkthay atthay isthay isway away anguagelay? Ifway osay, Iway ancay eakspay otslay andway otslay ofway anguageslay! Ibrislicakay andway Ypriakakay areway IALECTSDAY ymay iendfray!
Oodgay ightnay!
Eonlay (omfray ethay Ypruscay Orumfay). |
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garbitsch
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 767
Location: Cyprus
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Exactly we do not speak a language but dialects of it. No body in Turkey speaks the standard Turkish. Even the Istanbulians do not. They say "gitcen mi?" instead of "gidecek misin?" (are u gonna go?).
Besides, the Cypriot Turkish is becoming more like the Turkish spoken in Istanbul/Ankara, and I personally find it more useful since we are more able to communicate with the Turkish people. Creating and protecting a distinct Turkish Cypriot language will only make us communicate with Turks harder. |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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| garbitsch wrote: |
Well they do understand me in Turkey.
Memo, you are right that Cypriot Turkish is distinct from standard Turkish but I do not consider it as a seperate language. It's an accent ($ive, agiz etc). This is not my opinion, but the vast majority of T.Cs.
Kurdish on the other hand is a distinct language with totally different grammar and vocabulary. You cant say that Cypriot Turkish is such distinct language as Kurdish. |
no its not distinct as kurdish i agree but you have missed the point.
even with its subtle differences it is still a language in its own right. language denotes a system of communication, or a way of communicating using patterns of sound and gesture. gibrizlija falls into this description, as we communicate using sounds and occasionally our arms and hands. if we communicated telepathically then your argument would make sense, but since we are humans and not dolphins then it does not arkadash.
dialect is a variety of language confined to a geographical region, again gibrizlija falls into this. do you understand that language and dialect are the same thing, the latter is merely a more detailed description of the former.
even standard turkish began as a dialect, and was chosen by the young turk movement in the 1920s as the basis for a standardized language, before the language reforms in turkey, osmanlica which was a sociolect spoken by the elite and sultan, was the standarized language.
more contemporary example, azeri which used to be known as turki or turk ajemi (iranian-turkish) was chosen to be the standardized language of independent azerbaijan, they didnt sit down and say, oh our language is very close to standard turkish and even closer to eastern anatolian turkish therefore we have no right to call azeri a separate language. this relationship of similarities between languages is acceptable, it can exist while each language retains its unque identity. the fact that they have a language called azeri that is standardized and our gibrizlija is also a language but not standardized means very little since standardization comes about through political decisions and not through accessing whether the language in question "deserves" to be a language.
Last edited by Bullika on Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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| garbitsch wrote: |
Exactly we do not speak a language but dialects of it. No body in Turkey speaks the standard Turkish. Even the Istanbulians do not. They say "gitcen mi?" instead of "gidecek misin?" (are u gonna go?).
Besides, the Cypriot Turkish is becoming more like the Turkish spoken in Istanbul/Ankara, and I personally find it more useful since we are more able to communicate with the Turkish people. Creating and protecting a distinct Turkish Cypriot language will only make us communicate with Turks harder. |
So because our communication with mainlanders is threatened we ought to abandon our own language? are you kidding me? |
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Bullika
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 3025
Location: World
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| Leon wrote: |
Since we're out of the chat room, we can discuss this better. K?br?sl?ca is most definitely not a language, just as Kypriaka, Cockney, Geordie, Scouser, Brummie, Sicilianu, Pig Latin etc. aren't.
In fact you coud be right by saying that nobody speaks a language, but dialect(s). I'm tired now so I'm off to zzz. Will discuss it more at a later date.
Osay, oday ouyay inkthay atthay isthay isway away anguagelay? Ifway osay, Iway ancay eakspay otslay andway otslay ofway anguageslay! Ibrislicakay andway Ypriakakay areway IALECTSDAY ymay iendfray!
Oodgay ightnay!
Eonlay (omfray ethay Ypruscay Orumfay). |
I'm not saying that at all. I am saying we speak a language. If you wanna be descriptive or particular, then we speak a dialect. Good night and sweet dreams my friend. |
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garbitsch
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 767
Location: Cyprus
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But many people in Azerbaijan considers Azeri as "Azeri Turkcesi". The decision to make it a language came during the Soviet era, I guess. Soviets even created a "Moldovian" language, just to create an artificial Moldovian nation, which was obviously Romanian. And the language both nations speak are the same.
Even Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are all similar languages, but it was all politics since these languages were not called with one name.
But why do we need such political decision to alienate our accent from the standard Turkish as Kibrislica? We can still protect our accent without making it an official language! The linguists do not consider Moldavian a seperate language, sure they won't do the same for Cypriot Turkish accent. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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I am bit reluctant to stick my head above the parapit on this one, especially as I do not speak Turkish or any variant of it or seperate lanaguage that may be different from it (other than english or french a bit).
However I have to ask Bullika, is things like 'geordie english' or 'scottish english' a seperate language or just a dialect fo English? At what point does something stop being a dialect and start to be a seperate language ? |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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ehm, we have the same problem with our kypriaka.
i will agree with garbitsch that it is a dialect. and that many times a "language" its just politics
i will agree with mehmet that i would like to keep it. i dont like the idea of all of us speaking standard greek (even though it slowly and saddly happens). but we should learn to read and write standard greek. |
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