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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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I know this issue seems worn to the bone, but we need to try and work it out.
We cant just agree to disagree, because that would not be how a solution is made...instead we need to discuss the issues...however old.
I think it is fair to say that Turkish Cypriots want bizonality...but Greek Cypriots would prefer a unitary state...am i correct?
lets try to start a debate...erm....
"Bizonality would not be a realistic aim for a solution in Cyprus...discuss" |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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| bizonality could be achieved if refugees are ALLOWED to return. many Turkish Cypriots from discussions on this forum I've had with cannot seem to comprehend this. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Quote: |
bizonality could be achieved if refugees are ALLOWED to return. many Turkish Cypriots from discussions on this forum I've had with cannot seem to comprehend this.
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Well, why don't you explain us how bizonality can be achieved without making Turkish Cypriots a minority in the north? I'm really curious to hear how all refugees can return back and Turkish Cypriots are still the majority in the north. |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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first of all Turkish Cypriots ARE the minority in CYprus. and as ive said previously unless you start breeding like rabbits thats not gonna chance my friend.
secondly, by giving Greek Cypriots minority rights in their countries you are imposing a double standard, since this is something you are not willing to accept for yourselves. Will you be willing to share power with the enclaved Greek Cypriots who currently live in the north even though they are only a minute percentage?
thirdly, if all refugees are allowed to return (minus X amount where x equals the amount of Turkish Cypriot refugees who do not wish to leave the north) in a state where Turkish Cypriot are dominant by law then there is a great chance that many Greek Cypriots will choose compensation over returning to their stolen ancestral homes.
fourthly, if refugees still return there are laws that will prevent Greek Cypriots from dominating Turkish Cypriots.
of course Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.gov only informs you of how evil Greek Cypriots want to dominate you and there should be no intermingling between the two communities so why would YOU think differently? |
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Saint Jimmy
Senior Villager
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 205
Location: Leeds, UK
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| magikthrill wrote: |
| secondly, by giving Greek Cypriots minority rights in their countries you are imposing a double standard, since this is something you are not willing to accept for yourselves. Will you be willing to share power with the enclaved Greek Cypriots who currently live in the north even though they are only a minute percentage? |
Mete,
when you respond to Magikthrill's post, can you elaborate on this point please? I'm asking for this because I'm pretty sure you can come up with satisfactory/convincing arguments regarding his other points, but I can't see how this can be refuted.
Thanks |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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Firstly a unitary state is not the direct opposite of a bi-zonal state. Unitary state is the opposite of a bi-communal state. So you can have a unitary state (no political bi-communality), or bi-communal state with no bi-zonality or a bi-communal and bi-zonal state.
The original 1960 constitution was bi-communal but not bi-zonal.
From a Turkish Cypriot perspective what we have always wanted first and foremost was some form of bi-communality (politically), that is to not be at the political mercy of Greek Cypriot in our own homeland, but to have an effective say as a community in decisions that affects us and affect us differently from the Greek Cypriot community. This is what the 1960's agreements granted the Turkish Cypriot community. However from a Turkish Cypriot perspective they failed in protecting the Turkish Cypriot community from decisions imposed on our community by a numerically larger Greek Cypriot community. It is this past failure that makes many Turkish Cypriot now want a bi-zonal and bi-communal solution. Bi-communal alone failed us in the past. Thus for the future we look for a bi-communal and bi-zonal solution, in the hope this will not fail where a bi-communal solution did.
For me personally I can accept no bi-zonality but not no bi-communality. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| magikthrill wrote: |
first of all Turkish Cypriots ARE the minority in CYprus. and as ive said previously unless you start breeding like rabbits thats not gonna chance my friend.
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Did anyone say otherwise? There's no question about Turkish Cypriots being minority in Cyprus but this doesn't mean that Turkish Cypriots cannot be majority in their own zone in a future bizonal Cyprus.
| magikthrill wrote: |
secondly, by giving Greek Cypriots minority rights in their countries you are imposing a double standard, since this is something you are not willing to accept for yourselves. Will you be willing to share power with the enclaved Greek Cypriots who currently live in the north even though they are only a minute percentage?
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The reason why we do not accept simple minority rights is because Greek Cypriots did not and do not seem to care about Turkish Cypriot wishes and desires. Greek Cypriots, being the majority, wanted to make Cyprus part of another country because that's what they felt like without considering what Turkish Cypriots want or need. Moreover, they used every tactic possible (political, social, economic) to get what they want including violence. Even the considerable protections in 1960 agreements could not save Turkish Cypriots from being excluded from the decision-making. Now, answer me honestly. If you were in our position, would you ask for something more concrete or would you go in the other direction and ask for something less?.
As for sharing power with Greek Cypriot enclaves, you're comparing apples and oranges. There are only 500-1000 Greek Cypriot enclaves, am I correct? They don't even make 1% of Turkish Cypriot community. How can you compare 1% of Greek Cypriots in the north to 18% Turkish Cypriots in whole Cyprus?
Secondly, if there's a need of Greek Cypriot enclaves to have some sort of autonomy in Karpasia, I'm all for it. For example, they can choose their own mukthar, they can have their own school system which they already have these anyway, don't they? And if there's a decision relating to Karpasia, I have no problem with them having more voice than their numbers.
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then there is a great chance that many Greek Cypriots will choose compensation over returning to their stolen ancestral homes.
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There's a great chance...I agree but honestly, I don't want to bank my future to chances and good will of Greek Cypriots.
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fourthly, if refugees still return there are laws that will prevent Greek Cypriots from dominating Turkish Cypriots.
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What kind of laws? If 200.000 Greek Cypriot refugees return, then what law will protect Turkish Cypriots? For example, what is going to stop Greek Cypriots dominating the economy in the north? If Turkish Cypriots tried to make such laws, I'm sure they'll be accused of being racist right away.
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of course Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.gov only informs you of how evil Greek Cypriots want to dominate you and there should be no intermingling between the two communities so why would YOU think differently?
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I couldn't care less about what Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus government says. I haven't even been in Cyprus more than 1-2 months a year in the last 6 years. I read about Cyprus everyday. I discuss with Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots on forums and these are my own ideas.
How can you ask me to feel safe about the idea of living like a minority in a Greek Cypriot majority when the Greek Cypriot majority still considers their own Republic of Cyprus as something imposed on them by big powers? How do you expect me to feel that my Turkishness is being appreciated by Greek Cypriots when we hear people chanting "Cyprus is Greek" in a stupid football game? Or what do you want me to think when a Turkish Cypriot columnist (Serhat Incirli) who works in Afrika newspaper, one of the biggest supporters of Republic of Cyprus, one of the few Turkish Cypriot in the north who call the Turkish army invaders, was called a GYPSY by a Greek Cypriot in Troodos a few weeks ago just because he's a Turkish Cypriot? |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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Apples and oranges? That's the best you can do?!
The excuse for bicommunality arises from the fact that Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have different concerns as communities - it has NOTHING to do w/ the numbers. YOu think 1% is much less than 18%. Well gues what ? I think 18% is much less than 82%.
Unless you are willing to givce the enclaved Greek Cypriots the EXACT same rights demanded by Turkish Cypriots in the A-Plan then you are applying a double standard mete. Do you not see this?
Also if the concern of bizonality was having control over your OWN zone then there wouldnt be a cyprus problem. HOwever you understand that technically you dont have your own zone. YOu stole it. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| magikthrill wrote: |
Apples and oranges? That's the best you can do?!
The excuse for bicommunality arises from the fact that Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have different concerns as communities - it has NOTHING to do w/ the numbers. YOu think 1% is much less than 18%. Well gues what ? I think 18% is much less than 82%.
Unless you are willing to givce the enclaved Greek Cypriots the EXACT same rights demanded by Turkish Cypriots in the A-Plan then you are applying a double standard mete. Do you not see this? |
I see what you are saying but comparing how Greek Cypriot living in the north today (or how a Greek Cypriot minority population might libe in a NCCS (that's north cypriuot component state btw) and how Turkish Cypriot minority community lived in the 63-74 or how they might live in a unitary state are not the same.
In the first example the minority Greek Cypriot community might not have polticial equality within the zone in which they live but their wider community does have such political equality in Cyprus in general.
In the example of Turkish Cypriot community living in a unitary state, they do not have poltical equality as a community ANYWHERE, not in their 'zone' and not in Cyprus as a whole.
That to me is quite a difference (poltical equality for your community in general if not in your area/locality vs no political equality for your community anywhere, not in your zone/area and not in cyprus in general) |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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| erolz wrote: |
In the first example the minority Greek Cypriot community might not have polticial equality within the zone in which they live but their wider community does have such political equality in Cyprus in general.
In the example of Turkish Cypriot community living in a unitary state, they do not have poltical equality as a community ANYWHERE, not in their 'zone' and not in Cyprus as a whole.
That to me is quite a difference (poltical equality for your community in general if not in your area/locality vs no political equality for your community anywhere, not in your zone/area and not in cyprus in general) |
What matters is that the Greek Cypriots in the north have absolutely no political voice in their homeland, which happens to be under Turkish Cypriot and Turkish administratino.
Are you saying, erol, that these inhabitans should abandon their ancestral homes to have their political voice heard somewhere else? |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4941
Location: London(ish)
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| is there not only like 90 Greek Cypriot's living in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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| Giorgio wrote: |
| is there not only like 90 Greek Cypriot's living in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? |
maybe. even so though as erol pointed out their community has different concerns from Turkish Cypriot community. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| magikthrill wrote: |
| What matters is that the Greek Cypriots in the north have absolutely no political voice in their homeland, which happens to be under Turkish Cypriot and Turkish administratino. |
What I am saying is that this is not really the same senario that the Turkish Cypriot community found itself in in the period 64-74 or would find itself in in a unitray state model for cyprus, because at least these people's community have a very large say in decsions that affect their homeland (cyprus), if not thier 'homeregion', where as for the Turkish Cypriot community in 64-74 or in unitary state we would have no effective poltical voice at all in their homeland, let alone thie homeregion.
| magikthrill wrote: |
Are you saying, erol, that these inhabitans should abandon their ancestral homes to have their political voice heard somewhere else? |
No. In the locality where they are a majority they will have effective political control of local issues. In the region where they are a minority they will have only a minotiy voice, but will have protection at the 'national/federal' level by din't of the fact that their community will have an effective voice at this federal level. To me it is not necessary for them to have 'regional equality' as long as they have local control and federal protection.
You seem to be saying unless we give them 'regional' equality in a NCCS, they we are being hypocritical. I do not see this. If we were saying they can not have any regional equality and the Greek Cypriot community can also not have any federal equality in decsions that affect them then this to me would be hypocritical vs what we want as a community. |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 631
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[quote="erolz"]
What I am saying is that this is not really the same senario that the Turkish Cypriot community found itself in in the period 64-74 or would find itself in in a unitray state model for cyprus, because at least these people's community have a very large say in decsions that affect their homeland (cyprus), if not thier 'homeregion', where as for the Turkish Cypriot community in 64-74 or in unitary state we would have no effective poltical voice at all in their homeland, let alone thie homeregion.
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and what i am saying is that this scenario is the same. These are people who have no political voice whatsoever. Yes the Greek Cypriot community in the south has its own administratino but these people do not. The decisions are made by the Republic of Cyprus for the Republic of Cyprus. These people are not part of the Republic of Cyprus. The similarty between them and the Republic of Cyprus as like the Turkish Cypriots and Turkey. If it's not acceptable for Turkish Cypriots to have Turkey control their political future (although that is what is happening now but thats besides the point) then why should these people settle for the Republic of Cyprus administration's decisions ?
| magikthrill wrote: |
Are you saying, erol, that these inhabitans should abandon their ancestral homes to have their political voice heard somewhere else? |
No. In the locality where they are a majority they will have effective political control of local issues. In the region where they are a minority they will have only a minotiy voice, but will have protection at the 'national/federal' level by din't of the fact that their community will have an effective voice at this federal level. To me it is not necessary for them to have 'regional equality' as long as they have local control and federal protection.
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I also find this suitable. Just like it being suitable for Turkish Cypriots to have local control and federal protection.
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You seem to be saying unless we give them 'regional' equality in a NCCS, they we are being hypocritical. I do not see this. If we were saying they can not have any regional equality and the Greek Cypriot community can also not have any federal equality in decsions that affect them then this to me would be hypocritical vs what we want as a community. |
I think I confused you ebcause Iwasnt being specific. I was referring to political equality under the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus being a separate entity from the Republic of Cyprus. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| magikthrill wrote: |
I think I confused you ebcause Iwasnt being specific. I was referring to political equality under the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus being a separate entity from the Republic of Cyprus. |
Yeah I think there has been some confusion here (esp on my part).
What I thought you were sayin (and what some Greek Cypriot say) is that under a federal bi-zonal solution would Turkish Cypriot grant the Greek Cypriot minority community the same rights within the NCCS that Turkish Cypriot want / ask for within the federal state, and say that if we do not then we are being hyprocritical. It is this suggestion that I disagree with. It is not hypocritical because comparing rights within a CS with those within the whole/federal state is not the same thing and Turkish Cypriot do not require equality at the federal level and equality of Turkish Cypriot minortity living in SCCS, just the former - the same as they offer Greek Cypriot living in the NCCS.
I hope thats a bit clearer from my part and if this has no relevance to what you were saying then I appologise. |
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