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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Greek President Karolos Papoulias has cut short a visit to neighbour Albania, after a minority group's protest which Athens described as disruptive. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4397470.stm
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| Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953. |
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| We want basic rights. That is our land, our property. |
That has a familure ring to it. |
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Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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| Nothing surprises me any more. Sadly! |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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Albania protest halts Greek visit
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Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953.
The demonstrators, carrying banners reading "We want justice" and "Stop the indifference", were demanding compensation for or restitution of properties confiscated by the Greek government. |
Will Greece ever restore the properteis and rights of all its citizens forcefully disenfrenchised and expelled from their homeland?
Aparts from the chams, the rights of slavs and turks are violated on a regular basis in Aegean Macedonia and Western Thrace. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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The ECHR finds Greece guilty of violations of the human rights of the slavo-macedonian minority.
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The Court held unanimously that there had been:
a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights (right to a fair hearing) on account of the length of proceedings;
a violation of Article 11 of the Convention (freedom of assembly and association). |
http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Press/2005/Oct/ChamberjudgmentOuranioToxovGreece201005.htm |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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sorry for this duplication,
i just found out erloz had posted a similar topic before 
Please feel free to move this thread to the appropriate section |
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sophisticatedbeggar
Villager
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Athens, Greece
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| erolz wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Greek President Karolos Papoulias has cut short a visit to neighbour Albania, after a minority group's protest which Athens described as disruptive. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4397470.stm
| Quote: |
| Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953. |
| Quote: |
| We want basic rights. That is our land, our property. |
That has a familure ring to it. |
Well they are not just "accused". They fully collaborated with the Nazi regime against Greeks (on Greek territory) and they tried to create the Great Albania (unify part of Greece with Albania)... Isn't this the definition of the word "betrayer"?
For the duration of the WWII they treated Greeks like scum. So when the Germans lost Greeks did what was natural; asked them to either stay and face the concequences of their betrayal or return to Albania (after all they never denied that they felt Albanians). At least they had a choise. And they chose the second...
If the Germans had won the war quite possibly the plan of creating the Great Albania would have put into action and now I'd be an Albanian citizen living in the Albanian city of Athens. But the Germans lost... that's life... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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Sorry SB but what are you saying here?
That if a group has fought against you , or against your country or treated you like scum, or tried to annex your country to a another state - then it is ok to take their land as a result of a war? |
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sophisticatedbeggar
Villager
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Athens, Greece
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| erolz wrote: |
Sorry SB but what are you saying here?
That if a group has fought against you , or against your country or treated you like scum, or tried to annex your country to a another state - then it is ok to take their land as a result of a war? |
Oh, so according to your way of thinking I should go back in Constantinople and ask for my property back then... All I have to do is knock on the door of the Turk who illegally occupies my grandfather's house and store, throw him out and get back my property... Very logical... Cheers...
I should also add that my grandfather (unlike Chams) was in no way a threat to Turkey, never tried to annex Constantinople to Greece, never treated any Turk like scum, never fought against Turkey but still Turkey "repaid" him for being a peaceful and law abiding citizen by throwing him out without a penny (and when this happened it wasn't ever a g@d damn war involved)...
So, you see in times of war some gain and some lose... Chams lost... these things happen but nothing can be changed now...
I hope you understand now what I mean... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| sophisticatedbeggar wrote: |
So, you see in times of war some gain and some lose... Chams lost... these things happen but nothing can be changed now...
I hope you understand now what I mean... |
But Cyprus is different according to this view? |
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sophisticatedbeggar
Villager
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Athens, Greece
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| erolz wrote: |
| sophisticatedbeggar wrote: |
So, you see in times of war some gain and some lose... Chams lost... these things happen but nothing can be changed now...
I hope you understand now what I mean... |
But Cyprus is different according to this view? |
Well, no, I retain this position in the case of Cyprus too. As an outsider - I am a mainlander Greek I reckon it's not realistically possible for the Greek and Turkish Cypriots to claim back their property in case the two nations want to find a viable solution for the island... |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| sophisticatedbeggar wrote: |
| Well, no, I retain this position in the case of Cyprus too. As an outsider - I am a mainlander Greek I reckon it's not realistically possible for the Greek and Turkish Cypriots to claim back their property in case the two nations want to find a viable solution for the island... |
Then you position is to me consistent, which I respect.
Personally I do not agree that 'we had a war, Greek Cypriot lost, they should forget their lost land'. I personally think that _some_ land and property should be returned and the rest should be compensated for. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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Some interesting analogies:
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2
The Cham conflict arose as a result of the delineation of the border between Greece and Albania at the end of the Balkan Wars. In 1912 the London Ambassador's Conference allotted the Chameria region to Greece, so today only seven Cham villages, centred on the village of Konispol, are in Albania itself. There were three distinct phases of emigration of the Cham population from northern Greece. The
first occurred during the Balkan Wars 1912-1914, the second following the signing of the Turkish-Greek Convention at Lausanne in January 1923, and the third occurred at the end of the Second World War, in the period from June 1944 to March 1945, during which an estimated 5,000 men, women and children were killed. The rest of Chameria's Albanian Muslim population fled over the border to Albania where they have lived in exile ever since.
The Chams are demanding the recognition of about 4,000 Chams who disappeared as a result of those conflicts, and the property rights of about 150,000 others.3 The Chams are also building charges against Greece at the international courts, arguing
that they were stripped of around US$340m-worth of properties which are worth roughly US$2.5bn at current market prices. The Greeks, however, see the Cham question as a "non existent issue".
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The outbreak of the Second World War brought about a brief union (1941-1943) of Kosovo with Albania, and the possibility of the remaining Albanian-inhabited regions of the Balkans being united. In August 1940 Italy invaded Greece. In an
effort to rally the Albanian people to her cause, Italy had promised the Albanians their national unity. The German-Italian agreement of 1941 stipulated the formation of a 'Greater Albania', to include the large Albanian-inhabited areas of
Yugoslavia and, to a lesser extent, Greece. The Italians were able to exploit Albanian irredentist sentiment by insisting that the unification of all Albanian-inhabited lands was conditional upon an Axis victory. The Chams were subsequently armed by the Italians and co-operated with them against Greek villages controlled by Greek resistance fighters. During this period, atrocities were
committed by a minority of Chams against Greek civilians, thousands of whom were forced to flee from their homes. The majority of Chams, however, were merely passive collaborators, distrusting the Italians as much as they did the Greek Royalist guerrilla force of Napoleon Zervas. In little over a year, Greek forces were able to push the Italians back over the Albanian border. There was widespread alarm amongst the Chams when the hoped-for Axis victory turned to defeat. Near the village of Vrina in southern Albania, in June 1940, the headless body of the
Cham leader Daut Hoxa was discovered. It was alleged by the Italian-controlled government in Tirana that he had been murdered by Greek secret agents. Hoxha was a military leader of the Cham struggle during the inter-war years. The Greek
government claimed he was merely a bandit.14 In October 1944 when the Germans began withdrawing from Greece, many hundreds of Chams also fled with them into Albania. Henceforth, the remaining Muslim Albanians in Greece were regarded by the Greeks as the enemy within.
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| Quote: |
The most infamous massacre of Albanian Muslims by Greek irregulars occurred on
27 June 1944 in the district of Paramithia, when forces of General Zervas's National
Republican Greek League (EDES) entered the town and killed approximately 600
Albanian Muslims, men women and children - many having been raped and
tortured before death. According to eyewitness accounts, the following day, another
EDES battalion marched into Parga where 52 more Albanians were killed. On 23
September 1944, the town of Spatar was looted and 157 people died. Young women
and girls were raped and those men who were still alive were rounded up and
deported to the Aegean islands.16 According to statistics provided by the Chameria
Association in Tirana, in total 2,771 Albanian civilians were killed during the1944-
1945 attacks on their villages. The breakdown is as follows: in Filiates and suburbs
1,286, in Igoumenitsa and suburbs 192, in Paramithia and suburbs 673 and Parga
620. Sixty-eight villages with 5,800 houses were looted and then burnt. A detailed
list of material losses includes 110,000 sheep, 2,400 cattle, 21,000 quintals of
wheat and 80,000 quintals of edible oil, amounting to 11,000,000 kilograms of
grain and 3,000,000 kilograms of edible oil.17
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Source:
http://www.da.mod.uk/CSRC/documents/balkans/G109
The similarities are striking arent they?
Will Greece apply the same standarts to the Albanians of Chameria it demands for the Greeks of Cyprus?
If the expulsion of Chams can be justified by the actions of few extremists, why cant the expulsion of Greeks by the actions of EOKA?
Will Greece continue to hold on to stolen Cham property? |
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sophisticatedbeggar
Villager
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Athens, Greece
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| bg_turk wrote: |
Some interesting analogies:
The similarities are striking arent they?
Will Greece apply the same standarts to the Albanians of Chameria it demands for the Greeks of Cyprus?
If the expulsion of Chams can be justified by the actions of few extremists, why cant the expulsion of Greeks by the actions of EOKA?
Will Greece continue to hold on to stolen Cham property? |
The text you provided is inconsistent. The writer keeps changing the casualties numbers. Also, which method was used to calculate the number of farm animals and produce lost and how come someone got in the trouble to count these loses during the war?!?!? Most importantly which sources provide the value of the land that was "stolen" from the Chams??? Sounds VERY exagerated imo (knowning very well that land in rural Greece is much much cheaper than in cities)...
All in all, come back when you have something valid to say and not just falsely accusing people by copy pastying "articles" from the net only because you have issues with us Greeks...
Btw, will Turkey continue to hold on to stolen GREEK property in Constantinople / Pontos? Let me know when they start compensating Greeks. I am waiting for my turn as well for my stolen property in Constantinople. |
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Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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| sophisticatedbeggar wrote: |
| bg_turk wrote: |
Some interesting analogies:
The similarities are striking arent they?
Will Greece apply the same standarts to the Albanians of Chameria it demands for the Greeks of Cyprus?
If the expulsion of Chams can be justified by the actions of few extremists, why cant the expulsion of Greeks by the actions of EOKA?
Will Greece continue to hold on to stolen Cham property? |
The text you provided is inconsistent. The writer keeps changing the casualties numbers. Also, which method was used to calculate the number of farm animals and produce lost and how come someone got in the trouble to count these loses during the war?!?!? Most importantly which sources provide the value of the land that was "stolen" from the Chams??? Sounds VERY exagerated imo (knowning very well that land in rural Greece is much much cheaper than in cities)...
All in all, come back when you have something valid to say and not just falsely accusing people by copy pastying "articles" from the net only because you have issues with us Greeks...
Btw, will Turkey continue to hold on to stolen GREEK property in Constantinople / Pontos? Let me know when they start compensating Greeks. I am waiting for my turn as well for my stolen property in Constantinople. |
You'll be waiting a long time. Just as I will wait for the return my stolen property in Crete. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Bulgaria
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| sophisticatedbeggar wrote: |
Btw, will Turkey continue to hold on to stolen GREEK property in Constantinople / Pontos? Let me know when they start compensating Greeks. I am waiting for my turn as well for my stolen property in Constantinople. |
Yes, I believe Turkey should return properties in Istanbul to the minorities. |
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