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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
Alex (and anyone else), what is the situation with Chrysostomides? Is he simply a mouthpiece for Papadopoulos and the Ministerial Council, or does he put forward his own views as well? I don't really know much about him apart from him being involved in some shady 'political movement' to do with the reorientation of the political centre. Is he a Presidential wannabe, or simply a TPap 'yes man'? |
I dont know either, I know he is an intelligent person and an accomplished lawyer, but he seems to be stuck in a totally legalistic interpretation of the Cyprus Problem. I think he honestly believes what he is saying about Talat, and does not realise that he is shattering all prospects of future confidence between the two communities with his words.
Though I would not describe him as a mouthpiece of Tassos, I am sure his style and mentality reflect what is being discussed "behind closed doors" in the ministerial council.
And yes, I am quite sure he is a presidential wannabe, though I wouldn't give him good chances. He failed to become mayor of Nicosia a couple of years ago. |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1244
Location: Nicosia
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| Quote: |
| I would authorise, as "sovereign Republic of Cyprus", the opening of some ports in the north for the needs of Turkish Cypriots. |
Excellent move Alexandros. This would be a real test for the intentions of the other side. But if I were papadopoulos I would be dead scared to try this because it might be proved that the other side is sincerely interested in a solution that would render me a leader of a Community.
Chrysostomides, moose, was always interested in occupying a public position. The government parties tried to elect him Mayor of Nicosia some three years ago but failed miserably despite having a majority on paper of almost 60% - 40% over the candidate supported by DISI and EDI. |
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Bananiot
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 1244
Location: Nicosia
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Chrysostomides is also an opportunist. He was ready to come out openly for the Annan Plan in 2004 but then the governing coalition (then in opposition) promised him the public position he was after and he soon changed his mind over the plan and supported the candidacy of Papadopoulos.
I cannot see him entertaining any hopes for presidency and if Papadopoulos had been a President with much leeway for performing a government reshuffle, he would have been among the first to go. Anyway, some say he may get an AKEL ticket to go for MP in May as AKEL is looking for new blood to boost its chances of climbing over the psychological 30% mark. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
Lots and lots of informal and un-chaperoned meetings with the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community, to work on the development of understanding, the creation of a working relationship, and the bridging of the gap between the positions of the two communities. This can only be achieved in an informal setting, where each leader can speak his mind without fear of being cornered - and this is what the UN expects to see before it will formally reconvene negotiations.
I would also ask my government spokesman to shut his mouth and stop accusing the Turkish Cypriot leadership at every opportunity, I would be soberly educating the Greek Cypriot public on what a BBF would "look like" in practice so that they are psychologically prepared for it, I would authorise, as "sovereign Republic of Cyprus", the opening of some ports in the north for the needs of Turkish Cypriots. |
Presumably you have a point. I also see no essential need not to meet with Talat, set aside within a mere social context, apart for tactical reasons. However, you must also agree that Talat, no matter how pro-solution and communicative he appears, remains in essence fully entrenched behind the “acquis” of the Annan plan. Not long ago -only last June, he did not hesitate a minute to declare Papadopoullos positions -as they were conveyed to him by Prendergast, a “non-starter.” Ever since, he has not given even the slightest hind that perhaps this is not so much the case. If one considers the undeniable fact that Talat is not “adequately” empowered by the mainland Turkish establishment and Erdogan’s government, and in correlation to the equally undeniable fact that they also remain entrenched behind their so called “red lines” and the unacceptable concept of a “two equal people” – “two equal states” solution, one wonders how far Papadopoullos and Talat will manage to go. To this end, I personally believe that the time is not ripe yet, as not only an unofficial meeting between the two but not even a fully fletch UN initiative will produce any results. The only certain outcome will be the complete disappointment that the ordinary people of Cyprus, in both communities, will feel afterwards.
I do not know what expectations you personally have from a solution, but for me any solution should bear the minimum elements of justice, not only in terms of individual human rights, but also in a historical sense. Otherwise it will collapse very soon, and when it will collapse, the results for the Greek Cypriot community will be far worst than the present situation entails. For such a solution to be achieved, the Annan plan requires a fair amount of scrutinizing and “shake up.” Turkey is not yet ready for something like that. Perhaps it would have been, had the Americans did not encourage it every other day by stating that the only “realistic” solution basis is the Annan plan (obviously almost as it is.) Turkey will become ready and I hope this will occur in the nearest future, as its EU accession negotiations progress, and as a consequence it will have to (a) put the Army in the barracks, once and for good and in an institutionalized way, and (b) it realizes even more strongly (currently it passes through a "cognitive dissonance" phase,) that no matter how well these negotiations will progress, they will always feel like “building castles on a shaky or moving soil,” absent a solution to the Cyprus problem. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| cannedmoose wrote: |
If you read my post more closely Kifeas, you would have noted that I was only discussing the Greek Cypriot position. Since you want me to qualify that with an analysis of the Turkish Cypriot and Turkish perspective, here goes:
Yes, I think in Talat's case he is prepared to compromise and has demonstrated this in past actions. Obviously he is prevented from going too far by hardliners both in Northern Cyprus and Turkey itself. As for Erdogan and Turkey, the degree of movement demonstrated by Erdogan in his period in office is remarkable when you consider it to historical Turkish policy on Cyprus. Remember Bulent Ecevit, the man who claimed that there was no Cyprus problem because he'd solved it in 1974. Remember Tansu Ciller, who threatened to annex the North in the event of Cyprus joining the EU. In contrast, Erdogan has been prepared to discuss Turkish policy on Cyprus and has met with Papadopoulos on a number of occasions (if you want pictoral evidence of this, I'm happy to post it), unthinkable back in the Ecevit days.
I'm not claiming that Turkey and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus leadership are the angels in this because they're not. They continue to hold to positions that they know full well are unacceptable to the Greek Cypriot perspective and do not bring the prospect of a workable solution any closer. However, at this moment in time, most rational people do realise that Papadopoulos is the blocking point in this process. He has proved incapable of telling the truth about the status of talks and in reigniting the military aspect to the Cyprus problem through the holding of Nikiforos this year (against the advice of everyone, including Greece), he has done the Greek Cypriot's no favours at all.
Therefore, quite how you see fit to blame everyone but TPap is frankly beyond me. |
Moose, I am not expecting you to be in the position to grasp the entire Cyprus question in its most comprehensive and spherical dimension, but I will say to you just this. The Greek Cypriots have made during the last 50 years some consecutive and unprecedented historical compromises. All these compromises were made over some very legitimate, from a moral and historical sense, rights. The Turkish Cypriots (and Turkey) not only are the beneficiaries of all such compromises, but whatever compromises they appear in your eyes to have ever done, they were all made over illegitimate rights and claims.
To this end, regardless of whether you or any of the Turkish Cypriots appreciate or not what I said above, the Greek Cypriots are perfectly morally legitimised to at last draw our own “red lines” somewhere. We already went too far. This is exactly what Papadopoullos is trying to do. |
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Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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[quote="boomerang"]
| Xenos 2Fan wrote: |
| boomerang wrote: |
| Quote: |
Okay Boomer, so your telling me that if the government sanctions your activities the stigma of a pimp no longer applies? In America the only place where prostitution is legal is in the state of Nevada. There are many "business men" that run brothels. But guess what? When they cross State lines, just as they are considered in their own state, they are still considered pimps. In this case, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck in my book they are ducks or pimps no matter how much the government glazes it over even if you're listed on the stock exchange.
And I would not be quite so sure about crminal activities in brothels. Most hookers are using drugs to cope with the fact that they are sleeping around with every Tom, Dick or Harry.
As far as real estate is concerned we are all part of the same hypocracy I and you included. aboriginal lands are sold and bought on every continent.
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GDay Xenos2Fan, Mate do not confuse the hookers walking the street with a legit business...A legit business functions differenely and here is quite regulated....Junkies ain't allowed to work in brothels and they must get checked every 3 months by a doctor in order to operate...We have no more pimps, only legit brothel houses...
As far as the Aboriginals are concerned, yes they got the wrong end of the stick, especially the lost generation, but you find out today they have got a lot of things back...If their land has been exploited in the past ytoday they collect all the money...Thye run the own contracts and they are the guardians of thier lands...
Xenos2Fan you can't turn the clock back, but you can atleast overturn as many of the wrongs into rights...And this is what is happenning today...Actually I was watching a doco the other day were Aborigines dish out tribal law...They seem to dish it to their own...Also in some areas I need permission to enter...Its not as bad as everyone thinks... |
Hey there Boomer. First I want to thank you for my brand spankin' new avatar. Looks awesome mate!
I think your misunderstanding my point about brothels and hookers. I don't really want to turn this thread into an argument about the differences between brothel and streetwalking hookers. Here are my thoughts:
A hooker is a hooker and a pimp is a pimp. I don't care if they get checked every 3 months or every day or if the the pimp wears a pressed suit as opposed to the pimp that wears a fuzzy hat and carries a cane. Morally they are one in the same. People that run legalized prostitution camps are hiding behind the law but are still responsible for their actions in terms of morals. I have a simple question for you. Where do you draw the line in your business ventures? Would you personally engage or even invest into these ventures? Anyone that does invest in these ventures becomes a pimp indirectly because at the end of the day you are still selling women's bodies for profit and that would make those persons pimps in my book. Just because the government sanctions prostitution does not make it right imo. And when people generalise about a country being mafioso and pimps I take offence. That's only my opinion but I'm stickin to it. 
I agree with your last paragraph. We must all try to right all the things we have wronged. But we will not get anywhere by insulting people as Birkibrisli did in his post. There are criminal elements everywhere in the world but there are also good, honest, hardworking people that just want a decent life for themselves and their families. I'll look forward to your next post mate! |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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Hi tuFan,
We seem to be hijacking this thread with pimps and hookers. 
There is a difference between a legalised, tax paying, regulated brothel and a pimp walking the street offering women like pieces of meat...A lot of women might enjoy working in a brothel, while a lot of streel hookers are doing it for other reasons. In Melbourne this was the case a long time ago until the government stepped in and cleaned it up...
In a legalised brotel the woman is free to excibit her wars and there is no punishment for not pulling money in...A pimp will subject a street worker to a ot of beatings if she did not pull the money in...
Anyway all this talk about the sex industry while at work is making me wanting to go home at lunch time |
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Xenos 2Fan
Warnings : 5
Ministerial
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 3499
Location: Dallas,Texas/Mersin, Turkey
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Okay mate enough about this. Go home or take a cold shower. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1317
Location: Bulgaria
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| Kifeas wrote: |
The Greek Cypriots have made during the last 50 years some consecutive and unprecedented historical compromises. All these compromises were made over some very legitimate, from a moral and historical sense, rights. The Turkish Cypriots (and Turkey) not only are the beneficiaries of all such compromises, but whatever compromises they appear in your eyes to have ever done, they were all made over illegitimate rights and claims.
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Hello Kifeas,
I am confused abou your points. The compromises that you talk about are presumably those made by Klerides, but all of them have been rejected by hardliner Denktas as insufficient, and none of these compromises that you are talking about have materialised. You speak of them as if they are a fact. If Papadopolous was prepared to make those same compromises that Clerides has made, I think the problem would have already been solved. |
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Alexandros Lordos
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Location: Cyprus/Greece
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| I also see no essential need not to meet with Talat, set aside within a mere social context, apart for tactical reasons. |
The way this issue is being presented to the Greek Cypriot public, is "it's no big deal either way, social meeting or no social meeting". This is not how I see things. Tassos and Talat are total opposites in every sense of the word - Greek Cypriot Vs Turkish Cypriot, Lawyer Vs Engineer, Older man Vs Younger man. They totally mistrust each other at the moment, and are totally convinced that the other's intentions are guileful. With such a climate of broken-down trust, resumption of negotiations is impossible, however much everyone would have liked negotiations to re-commence. This was the precise message that Prendergast was striving to put forward.
Unless these two develop a working relationship, now, there is no sense in talking about making further steps. Tassos doesn't seem to understand this point, he thinks that the Cyprus Problem is only about putting pressure on Turkey to make concessions from her entrenched positions (it is that as well, but it is not just that).
| Kifeas wrote: |
| However, you must also agree that Talat, no matter how pro-solution and communicative he appears, remains in essence fully entrenched behind the “acquis” of the Annan plan. |
Well, he has to appear entrenched behind the Annan Plan "as is", a) to safeguard his negotiating position (you can't give things away before negotiations begin, we would have acted the same way), and b) so that he doesn't lose votes. If you read his statements carefully, he keeps saying "if the Greek Cypriot side desires changes to the Plan, let them spell them out". So implicitly, he remains open to renegotiation. It is also my impression that he is willing to think creatively about a new version of the Plan - not just from his public statements, but from having met him in person as well.
The simple truth is: At the moment, for Talat and the majority of Turkish Cypriots, the Annan Plan is the best solution they have yet seen. Unless we Greek Cypriots, and primarily our leader Tassos, make an effort to meet our Turkish Cypriot co-citizens and show them something that will work better than the Annan Plan, then they will continue to believe in the Annan Plan "as is". Tassos needs to meet with Talat, informally, and explain to him his vision for the future of Cyprus, whatever that vision might be. Then he should listen carefully to understand what Talat's objections might be to that vision, and see if he can accomodate those objections. Doing all this via hearsay, through Prendergast, is just not good enough. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| bg_turk wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
The Greek Cypriots have made during the last 50 years some consecutive and unprecedented historical compromises. All these compromises were made over some very legitimate, from a moral and historical sense, rights. The Turkish Cypriots (and Turkey) not only are the beneficiaries of all such compromises, but whatever compromises they appear in your eyes to have ever done, they were all made over illegitimate rights and claims.
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Hello Kifeas,
I am confused abou your points. The compromises that you talk about are presumably those made by Klerides, but all of them have been rejected by hardliner Denktas as insufficient, and none of these compromises that you are talking about have materialised. You speak of them as if they are a fact. If Papadopolous was prepared to make those same compromises that Clerides has made, I think the problem would have already been solved. |
Bg_Turk, If you fly over the earth at 1,000 meters above its surface, you will see only a small part of just one country. If you fly at 10,000 meters, you will see the entire area of just one country of let's say the size of Bulgaria. To see the whole picture of the entire planet with just one look, you have to fly perhaps at 100,000 meters above it. Your example reflects a flight at 1,000 meters high. To understand what I meant, you have to fly at 100,000 meters high and see the whole picture. Only then you will also realize that the earth is round and spherical. Otherwise, if you keep flying at low altitudes, you will always remain with the impression that the earth is flat. |
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bg_turk
Deputy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 1317
Location: Bulgaria
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| Kifeas wrote: |
Bg_Turk, If you fly over the earth at 1,000 meters above its surface, you will see only a small part of just one country. If you fly at 10,000 meters, you will see the entire area of just one country of let's say the size of Bulgaria. To see the whole picture of the entire planet with just one look, you have to fly perhaps at 100,000 meters above it. Your example reflects a flight at 1,000 meters high. To understand what I meant, you have to fly at 100,000 meters high and see the whole picture. Only then you will also realize that the earth is round and spherical. Otherwise, if you keep flying at low altitudes, you will always remain with the impression that the earth is flat. |
Aristotle and Pytagorus deduced the earth was round without ever taking their feet off its surface because they observed it cast a round shadow over the moon during a lunar eclipse - you just need to be free from dogmas and have a little bit of creative imagination to be able to see the truth as it is, not as you wish it to be. |
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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| Moose, I am not expecting you to be in the position to grasp the entire Cyprus question in its most comprehensive and spherical dimension. |
No, thankfully we've got your presence here to do that for us... perhaps given your self-designated Oracle status you can tell us all about the Cyprus problem in all its complexity and 'sphericalness'  You obviously claim to understand it fully... even though I know many Cyprus scholars who have been studying it in great detail for more than 30 years and still don't claim to know everything. I look forward with great eagerness to your forthcoming textbook on the subject. 
Last edited by cannedmoose on Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Alexandros Lordos wrote: |
The simple truth is: At the moment, for Talat and the majority of Turkish Cypriots, the Annan Plan is the best solution they have yet seen. Unless we Greek Cypriots, and primarily our leader Tassos, make an effort to meet our Turkish Cypriot co-citizens and show them something that will work better than the Annan Plan, then they will continue to believe in the Annan Plan "as is". Tassos needs to meet with Talat, informally, and explain to him his vision for the future of Cyprus, whatever that vision might be. Then he should listen carefully to understand what Talat's objections might be to that vision, and see if he can accomodate those objections. Doing all this via hearsay, through Prendergast, is just not good enough.
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Exactly, Alex! Turkish Cypriots said "Yes" to the plan. We showed to our Greek Cypriot co-citizens what can be acceptable to us. Our Greek Cypriots co-citizens were not satisfied with the plan. Our Greek Cypriots co-citizens need to give us clues about what can be acceptable to them and then we can start a dialogue from there. We need open communication between the two communities. It's crucial that we keep the channels of communication open and agree on a new plan through dialogue. But instead we have Tassos (just like Denktash) who does not even have the desire of making the first step of meeting with Talat. What does he expect? He wants British/Americans to make up another plan for him to refuse? |
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