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Are Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and KRNI put in the same basket?
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erolz

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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject:

Kifeas wrote:

Erol wrote:

1. The EU did not make any such promise and /or commitment, set aside for a one off aid package

It did make such promises.

There was no commitment or decision by the EU Council at that meeting, calling for direct trade, set aside for a package of it with the financial aid.

All it made was a decision to end the isolation (in general) but under article 2 of protocol 10 of the Act of Accession (link is provided above,) which then resulted (produced) the “green line” regulation. Isolation may end through the "green line" regulation as well. Direct trade -and its coupling with the financial aid, was a Commission's later invention and proposal to the Council. Not an EU decision as such!

Quote:

The Council is determined to put an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and to facilitate the reunification of Cyprus by encouraging the economic development of the Turkish Cypriot community. The Council invited the Commission to bring forward comprehensive proposals to this end,

The comission did just this, brought forward comprehnsive proposals to the 'end' of putting an end to the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community. The Republic of Cyprus has done and continues to do everthing in its power to block these proposals put forward by the commision at the direct request of the council. These are the plain and simple facts.

Kifeas
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject:

erolz wrote:

Kifeas wrote:

Erol wrote:

1. The EU did not make any such promise and /or commitment, set aside for a one off aid package

It did make such promises.

Quote:

Do you see any decision of the Council to proceed with direct trade . There is no such decision but only general remarks for an end of isolation, namely under the framework of the treaty of accession.

erolz

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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject:

Kifeas wrote:

I can not see how the 'determination of the EU to end the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and encourag the economic development of the Turkish Cypriot community' could be interpeted in any other way as including looking at removing or lessening the current EU restrictions on trade between Eu and Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Moreover not only do I think that this is clear plain and obvious, but clearly so too did the comission think this, for when it made the proposals called for by the Council, to meet the councils stated objectives one key element of them was, suprise surprise, allowing for direct trade between the EU and the Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Kifeas
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:54 pm Post subject:

erolz wrote:

Kifeas wrote:

Yes you are Erol, unfortunately you are self-synthesizing. It was in that meeting on the 26 of April 2004 that G. Iacovou suggested first this aid to be forwarded, regardless of the non-solution.

Says who? Mr Iacovou and you. The offical EU documents no mention of such things in these decisons. It makes no mention of represntations by the Republic of Cyprus. Undoubtedly Mr Iacovou CLAIMS these things, and the South Cypriot press has repeated these claims. How the rest of the worlds press tells a very different story.

Aha! When it suits you, Cyprus Mail is an objective newspaper and you all too often quote its articles, espacially when they related to anti-papadopoullos propaganda, etc.

Now, Cyprus Mail has become just the "south press" that repeats what Iacovou says. Well, check on the same edition (27/04/2004) of the Cyprus Mail and see the rest of the reporting of this paper and see how pro-Greek Cypriot propaganda they are. Quite the opposite!

Quote:

The EU Council has clearly stated it is DETERMINED to see and end to the isolation of the Republic of Northern Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus is clearly DETERMINED to try and stop this. These are the simple and plain facts of the matter.

Again, you are confusing some very crucial issues. The council is determined to end the isolation, but not necessarily through direct trade. Trade can take place via the "green line" regulation. Direct trade was not mentioned as the means of ending this isolation. The EU council did not promise you direct trade!

erolz

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Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject:

Kifeas wrote:

The Cyprus mail is an objective paper imo and I have a great amoiunt of personal respect for it. As a south cypriot paper it has a duty to report the claims of the Republic of Cyprus foriegn minister. That does not mean that these claims are true. Neither does it mean that it is a propaganda paper. The fact is if it were true that it was Cyprus that pushed for the Republic of Northern Cyprus to get the aid, and not the EU Council of which the Republic of Cyprus was not a member as the EU documents state, then one would reasonably expect thsi fact to have been mentioned by the EU and reported in the press that do not have a duty to report the Republic of Cyprus foriegn minsiters claims (ie the press other than the Republic of Cyprus press). You and Mr Iacovou claim it was the Republic of Cyprus that 'pushed' for the Republic of Northern Cyprus to get the aid. I do not believe this. It will take more than Mr Iacovou unsupported claims and the reoprting of these in the Republic of Cyprus to convince me this is the case I am afraid.

Kifeas wrote:

The Councils job is to set the agenda. The comissions job is to draw up the proposals. The council set the agenda of ending the isolation of Turkish Cypriot and ecouraging economic development of Turkish Cypriot. The comission then drew up proposals to meet this agenda. They included removing restrictions on direct trade with the Republic of Northern Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus has then done eveything in it's power to block these proposals. These are the facts plain and simple.

Kifeas
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject:

Erolz wrote:

Again you are wrong. Read the offcial EU document. The EU agreed to aid AND to lifting trade restictions on the North. And all before the Republic of Cyprus had acceeded to the EU. This agreement was made by ALL the EU member states at this meeting.

No such agreement was made at the meeting you are referring to.

Such a decision would have violated the treaty of accession which regards the occupied areas as part of the Republic of Cyprus and not as a third country. This is what the legal committee of the EU had told the commission when they presented their proposal.
Learn how to properly interpret documents!

You can have trade through the green-line, as it was defined and adopted under the “green-line” regulation, and this is also a good form of easing isolation.

Erolz wrote:

No the monetary aid package is NOT there and waiting. If the Republic of Northern Cyprus accepts the decpoupling of this provision promised by the EU from the other provision promised by the EU on trade, which has been blocked by the Republic of Cyprus, AND we agree that this aid should be disbursed to us via the Republic of Cyprus, then the Republic of Cyprus will not block the aid. Unless of course it then changes it's mind.

It is there and waiting only for Talat to tell the British government to disassociate it from the direct trade proposal that the Commission has put forward and which the Council cannot authorize.

Read the following articles and you will realize the political games Talat is playing against the benefits of the Turkish Cypriot community.

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=20907&archive=1

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=20635&archive=1

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=20942&archive=1

That is why Ali Erel said the other day that the Turkish Cypriot leadership is on the wrong side on this issue and is mainly after poliitcal gains and recognision of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" from the back door, instead of easing "isolation" for thepurpose of economic development of the Turkish Cypriots.

Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject:

Erolz wrote:

The minutes of the council are never published, as far as I know, in a detailed format. Sometimes decisions are formulated over lunch talking or even between rooms and corridors.

Iacovou was allowed to participate in the council's meetings and express opinion on matters relating to its own country, in the same way that the other 9 acceding countries could do, since their accession had been decided the year before. This is the EU practice on this issue.

The Republic of Cyprus had every reason to go to that meeting with such proposals, in order to defuse the tension and the anger against it for rejecting the A-plan only two days earlier. I hope that this helps you a bit more.

erolz

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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject:

Kifeas wrote:

Such a decision would have violated the treaty of accession which regards the occupied areas as part of the Republic of Cyprus and not as a third country. This is what the legal committee of the EU had told the commission when they presented their proposal.
Learn how to properly interpret documents!

The Comission made it's proposals, and with no promoting the legal comitttee told them these proposals were illegal?

Or was the senario closer to

The comission made it's proposals. The Republic of Cyprus threatend to veto them. The comission stated that in it's opinion the Republic of Cyprus did not have such a veto. The Republic of Cyprus then threatend to challenge them in the EU courts if they were adpoted. The EU legal comittee then look at the issue and decided that there was the possibility of such a challenge (for they do not determine what is legal or not - the courts do that, they give opinion). The comission looked for other ways to implement the wishes of the council.

Kifeas wrote:

You can have trade through the green-line, as it was defined and adopted under the “green-line” regulation, and this is also a good form of easing isolation.

Sure we can have trade with the EU, as long as we are forced to come cap in hand to the Republic of Cyprus to get it. Of course we can have aid from the EU, as long as we are forced to come cap in the hand to the Republic of Cyprus (who contributed not one cent to the aid or were involved in the decsions to give it - only it the wranglings to block it) to get and they can decide what it is spent on. And you accuse US of persuing political agendas !

Kifeas wrote:

Read the following articles and you will realize the political games Talat is playing against the benefits of the Turkish Cypriot community.

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=20907&archive=1

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=20635&archive=1

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=20942&archive=1

I have read these articles and what I see is confirmation of what I thought all along.

Quote:

However, the package has never seen ratification at the European Council, mainly due to sustained Greek Cypriot opposition to it on the grounds that direct trade with the north would be tantamount to recognition of the breakaway state.

Quote:

The member states blocking the decoupling have qualms because of the Greek Cypriots’ stance on the direct trade with the north.

Quote:

The sources said what was important was that the aid regulation went ahead, and the second regulation was not “buried”.

Quote:

The government has made no secret of the fact that it will not accept direct trade, as this would constitute de facto recognition of the regime in the north.
There was “some bitterness” in the room, the Mail has learnt, with some countries blaming Cyprus for the outcome and Nicosia blaming the UK.

Kifeas wrote:

That is why Ali Erel said the other day that the Turkish Cypriot leadership is on the wrong side on this issue and is mainly after poliitcal gains and recognision of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" from the back door, instead of easing "isolation" for thepurpose of economic development of the Turkish Cypriots.

What I see here is a difference of opinion on how to overcome the Republic of Cyprus persistent blocking tactics. Erel approach is to try and go round them. Talats approach is to try and stand up to them and overcome them. Maybe Talats appraoch is based on trying to get 'recongition' by the back door (a ridiculous notion in itself as far as I am concerned). It is also entirely possible that his reluctance to see decoupling is donw to the concern that once decoupled the proposals on diretc trade will be 'burried' by the Republic of Cyprus and that without decoupling it will be harder to 'bury' them.

Kifeas
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Joined: 26 Aug 2005
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Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject:

erolz wrote:

You are the biggest hair splitter i have ever seen in my life Erol.

Therefore Talat prefers to have the financial aid also buried, clearly acting against the interests of the Turkish Cypriot community for mere political gains!

erolz

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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:20 pm Post subject:

Kifeas wrote:

Therefore Talat prefers to have the financial aid also buried, clearly acting against the interests of the Turkish Cypriot community for mere political gains!

Not at all. To risk a one of aid package from the EU that amoumts to less than Turkey gives the Republic of Northern Cyprus anualy, in order to try and avoid the burrying of a permanent change that will bring economic benefits year after year is not acting against the interests of the Turkish Cypriot community. It is a tatical judgment call.

There is however bigger / wider issues at stake, and not the persuit of 'secret' recognition of the Republic of Northern Cyprus. The wider issues are resiting the precendent of allowing the Republic of Cyprus tail to wag the EU dog on issues relating to the Republic of Northern Cyprus. I think it is important that Talat make every effort to resist this attempt by the Republic of Cyprus to undermine the EU councils and the comissions wishes and views on how the EU should treat the Republic of Northern Cyprus. The Council has said what it wants. The comission has said how it thinbks this should be achieved. The Republic of Cyprus is seeking to undermine this for it's own parochial poltical agendas. I think it is right that the Republic of Northern Cyprus seeks to show that such behaviour by the Republic of Cyprus will not work, along with any allies it can find in the EU. That is the real 'bigger issue' here as far as I am concerned.

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