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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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According to the Afrika newspaper, 78 Turkish Cypriots who recently made an appeal to reclaim their 1960 rights got denied by the Greek Cypriot court. There isn't much detail on the verdict other than this:
"According to the Greek court, Turkish Cypriots does not participate in the Republic of Cyprus seats and it's not possible for them to vote for these seat until a solution is found to the Cyprus problem".
One other disappointing thing is that the court gave the verdict in Greek, no Turkish, even though they were supposed to!. Ali Erel, one of the Turkish Cypriots who claimed these rights, said the next step is to go to the EHRC.
I want to get more details on the verdict but if it's as Afrika explained it, then no Greek Cypriot should ever claim that the Republic of Cyprus exists and Turkish Cypriots simply do not want to participate in it. Furthermore, the fact that the court published the decision only in Greek shows me that the mentality that Turkish Cypriots need to deal with in a future solution. This is rather disappointing. |
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boulio
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 294
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| The 78 t/c do not represent the t/c community that holds 37% of the land of cyprus.capish |
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100%cypriot
Warnings : 4
Ministerial
Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 2181
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| boulio wrote: |
| The 78 t/c do not represent the t/c community that holds 37% of the land of cyprus.capish |
No ! we are not as clever as you , Please Explain to us.................
And of the remaining 63 % doesd that all belong to the Greek Cypriots ?  |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Mete wrote: |
According to the Afrika newspaper, 78 Turkish Cypriots who recently made an appeal to reclaim their 1960 rights got denied by the Greek Cypriot court. There isn't much detail on the verdict other than this:
"According to the Greek court, Turkish Cypriots does not participate in the Republic of Cyprus seats and it's not possible for them to vote for these seat until a solution is found to the Cyprus problem".
One other disappointing thing is that the court gave the verdict in Greek, no Turkish, even though they were supposed to!. Ali Erel, one of the Turkish Cypriots who claimed these rights, said the next step is to go to the EHRC.
I want to get more details on the verdict but if it's as Afrika explained it, then no Greek Cypriot should ever claim that the Republic of Cyprus exists and Turkish Cypriots simply do not want to participate in it. Furthermore, the fact that the court published the decision only in Greek shows me that the mentality that Turkish Cypriots need to deal with in a future solution. This is rather disappointing. |
Mete, I am sure you can do better than just the above!
You say that "78 Turkish Cypriots who recently made an appeal to reclaim their 1960 rights got denied by the Greek Cypriot court." Is this what these 78 Turkish Cypriots applied for? To get their 1960 rights? Since when 24 parliamentary seats (30%) of the house, the vice-presidency of the government and 3 ministries, are the 1960 constitutional right of these or any other 78 people?
Furthermore, since when 78 people that live in the north and are subjects to the rules and directives of 40,000 Turkish occupational troops, and who choose to recognise and indirectly serve an illegal regime that claims the sovereignty of 36% of the territory of the Republic of Cyprus, pay taxes to this regime, participate in its "elections" and even become "elected" in it; can also at the same time claim the right to obtain such an enormous power within the government whose sovereignty is disputed by the very regime they indirectly serve, and by the country whose forces illegally occupy and control this area?
Honestly, did you expect a different decision by the court? |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Kifeas wrote: |
You say that "78 Turkish Cypriots who recently made an appeal to reclaim their 1960 rights got denied by the Greek Cypriot court." Is this what these 78 Turkish Cypriots applied for? To get their 1960 rights?
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Enlighten us then Kifeas. Tell us what they claimed.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Honestly, did you expect a different decision by the court?
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So just because I happened to be born in the north and have no choice about living in the north, I cannot participate in the Republic of Cyprus, is that what you're saying?
The court could ask for some preconditions for participation (eg. start paying taxes etc.) instead of simply rejecting participation because Cyprus problem is not resolved. Guess what Kifeas? Let's forget about Greek Cypriot refugees until Cyprus problem is resolved too. How does that sound? |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Mete wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
You say that "78 Turkish Cypriots who recently made an appeal to reclaim their 1960 rights got denied by the Greek Cypriot court." Is this what these 78 Turkish Cypriots applied for? To get their 1960 rights?
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Enlighten us then Kifeas. Tell us what they claimed. |
Those 78 individual Turkish Cypriots asked to be allowed to participate in the last parliamentary elections on separate electoral lists, exclusively as the electoral list of the Turkish Cypriot community, so that they will be able to elect and become elected for the 24 vacant parliament seats that the constitution reserved for the entire Turkish Cypriot community; at a time the entire Turkish Cypriot community and its officially recognised by the UN leadership (under Mr. Talat) does not even recognise the Republic of Cyprus, its constitution and its sovereignty in the whole of Cyprus, and when almost the entire Turkish Cypriot community, under its official leadership, choose to collaborate with the occupying country and claim that they constitute a separate state in the occupied part of the Republic of Cyprus. Those 1960 constitutional provisions are for the entire Turkish Cypriot community, which then, in 1960, it amounted to 18.4% of the entire Cypriot population (citizens.) Those rights are not absolute but relative!
Had they come (those 78 ) and asked to be enrolled under the existing Republic of Cyprus electoral list, and participate with the rest of the people in the south, as individual citizens of the Republic of Cyprus; then I could see their point and I would have been in favour of such a right being granted to them. However, this is not what they have asked!
| Mete wrote: |
So just because I happened to be born in the north and have no choice about living in the north, I cannot participate in the Republic of Cyprus, is that what you're saying? |
No! I believe as an individual Republic of Cyprus citizen you should have the right to participate in any elections of the Republic of Cyprus, like it was the case for the EP elections, and if this is what you want, I am on your side! Nevertheless, I believe no court will in the end be able to deny you such a right, just like the case of Ibrahim Aziz. However, I doubt that if those 78 Turkish Cypriots go to the ECtHR and challenge the decision of the Republic of Cyprus court for what they have asked, that the ECtHR will even admit their case, set aside ruling in favour of them.
To tell you the truth, I wish they go to the ECtHR and the court admits their case and rules upon it. It will be a very interesting judgment, for very many reasons and aspects.
| Mete wrote: |
Let's forget about Greek Cypriot refugees until Cyprus problem is resolved too. How does that sound? |
I know how it sounds because as a matter of fact that is what I have been hearing for the past 33 years from your “motherland,” your leadership and by the majority of the members of your community. As a matter of fact, your “motherland” and your leadership (under Denktash,) for most of all these 33 years have been telling me something even worst than that! They have been telling me that “the Cyprus problem was solved already, once and for good, in 1974!” |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Kifeas wrote: |
Those 78 individual Turkish Cypriots asked to be allowed to participate in the last parliamentary elections on separate electoral lists, exclusively as the electoral list of the Turkish Cypriot community, so that they will be able to elect and become elected for the 24 vacant parliament seats that the constitution reserved for the entire Turkish Cypriot community
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And, what's the problem with this? What did you expect? You expected that Turkish Cypriots would not claim back their community rights as detailed in the Republic of Cyprus constitution that the Greek Cypriot supposedly recognizes and demand for minority rights within the Greek Cypriot majority? That's what you call Turkish Cypriots claiming their rights??
| Kifeas wrote: |
at a time the entire Turkish Cypriot community and its officially recognised by the UN leadership (under Mr. Talat) does not even recognise the Republic of Cyprus, its constitution and its sovereignty in the whole of Cyprus, and when almost the entire Turkish Cypriot community, under its official leadership, choose to collaborate with the occupying country and claim that they constitute a separate state in the occupied part of the Republic of Cyprus.
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It's true that some Turkish Cypriots don't recognize the Republic of Cyprus. What about the ones who want to recognize though? Does this mean that those Turkish Cypriots cannot enjoy their rights within the Republic of Cyprus just because there's a section within the Turkish Cypriot community who don't recognize the Republic of Cyprus? Take me as an example, if I denounce Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and declare Republic of Cyprus as my state, and fulfill all my duties to the Republic of Cyprus (pay taxes, etc.), why should I be denied to exercise my community's rights within the Republic of Cyprus according to the constitution?
As an aside, is this the message you want to give to encourage those Turkish Cypriots who want to return back to the 1960 agreement or at least some federal form of it? Is this how to embrace Turkish Cypriots in the Republic of Cyprus? Kick out a community out the Republic of Cyprus (or according to you, we left it but whatever), blame that community for being illegal, for not supporting the Republic of Cyprus, etc. but when some people within that community wants to return back to legality, deny them. Now, who's going to believe that Republic of Cyprus indeed represents both communities as outlined by the 1960 agreements?
Besides how can you pick and choose which parts of the constitution applies and at the same time claim that you respect the constitution? That's absurd.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Those 1960 constitutional provisions are for the entire Turkish Cypriot community, which then, in 1960, it amounted to 18.4% of the entire Cypriot population (citizens.) Those rights are not absolute but relative!
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Ah, I see and who says these rights are relative? In the 1960 constitution, does it say that if the Turkish Cypriot population goes down, then their rights within the Republic of Cyprus goes down as well? I don't think so but enlighten me if that's the case. So, what are you suggesting? That Turkish Cypriots don't even deserve their rights in 1960? If this is really what you believe, then please please, never again, blame us for not returning back to the Republic of Cyprus because what you mean by "returning to the Republic of Cyprus" is returning to a Greek Cypriot dominated republic. That's what Denktash used to tell us and we never believed in him. He really had a point and I'm not joking now. It's sad that you made me believe in Denktash after all these years.
| Kifeas wrote: |
Had they come (those 78 ) and asked to be enrolled under the existing Republic of Cyprus electoral list, and participate with the rest of the people in the south, as individual citizens of the Republic of Cyprus; then I could see their point and I would have been in favour of such a right being granted to them. However, this is not what they have asked!
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Of course this is not what they asked! This is exactly the point. Those people wanted to see if Greek Cypriots are ready to accept Turkish Cypriots back in the Republic of Cyprus. We get blamed for illegality of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus every day, so those people tried to return to legality. They tried to claim their community rights as outlined in your own constitution. But you don't even accept your own constitution, blame us for not abiding with the constitution (that you don't believe in), and then when we want to abide by the constitution, you don't let us. Don't you see the absurdity in your logic?
| Kifeas wrote: |
No! I believe as an individual Republic of Cyprus citizen you should have the right to participate in any elections of the Republic of Cyprus, like it was the case for the EP elections, and if this is what you want, I am on your side!
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I want to exercise the rights given to my community in 1960, nothing more nothing less. You guys supposedly agreed to these agreements and since you claim that the Republic of Cyprus exists today, you have to let me participate in the Republic of Cyprus using my community's rights. If you don't, you're hypocrites!
| Kifeas wrote: |
To tell you the truth, I wish they go to the ECtHR and the court admits their case and rules upon it. It will be a very interesting judgment, for very many reasons and aspects.
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Me too! I'm really looking forward to it!
| Kifeas wrote: |
I know how it sounds because as a matter of fact that is what I have been hearing for the past 33 years from your “motherland,” your leadership and by the majority of the members of your community. As a matter of fact, your “motherland” and your leadership (under Denktash,) for most of all these 33 years have been telling me something even worst than that! They have been telling me that “the Cyprus problem was solved already, once and for good, in 1974!”
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I know you are and being in that position, I thought you would be the first one to realize how ridiculous it is to deny Turkish Cypriots to return back to the Republic of Cyprus. However, you don't seem to care, just like those in the north who don't care about Greek Cypriot refugees. So you shouldn't blame those people, you're doing the same thing but with using different things. They use whatever they can (your properties) and you use whatever you can (a recognized state on behalf of Turkish Cypriots) to maximize your gains in a future solution. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
| I know you are and being in that position, I thought you would be the first one to realize how ridiculous it is to deny Turkish Cypriots to return back to the Republic of Cyprus. |
Mete,
I think you are being overly harsh on Kifeas. It is not a question of denying those rights. What Kifeas is trying to point out is that you can't have your rights within the Republic of Cyprus and at the same time live in the north under the rules of the regime there. This is nonsense.
| Quote: |
| I want to exercise the rights given to my community in 1960, nothing more nothing less. You guys supposedly agreed to these agreements and since you claim that the Republic of Cyprus exists today, you have to let me participate in the Republic of Cyprus using my community's rights. If you don't, you're hypocrites! |
And how can this happen under the current circumstances? How can the Turkish Cypriot's take thier place in the Republic of Cyprus and claim their rights and at the same time have an illegal entity in the north in which they live? The answer is not as black and white as you make it Mete.
Perhaps if those Turkish Cypriot's denounced the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', and proved that they wish to participate under the Republic of Cyprus by for example making a genuine attempt to go back to thier old homes in the south then perhaps something could be done. In fact, as Kifeas has pointed out, those that do live in the south can participate, although not under the terms of the 1960 constitution - how can a couple of thousand Turkish Cypriot's in the south take their full complement of 28 seats in the house and have position of Vice President of the Republic? Representation on a pro-rata basis would be more sensible so that there is Turkish Cypriot representation in the House.
I think it would be much better if you could offer a more constructive approach to this issue than just crying wolf all the time and trying to 'prove' that the Greek Cypriot's don't want t the Turkish Cypriot's at all in positions of power. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| mikkie2 wrote: |
I think you are being overly harsh on Kifeas. It is not a question of denying those rights.
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It's a question of denying those rights, one way or another.
| mikkie2 wrote: |
What Kifeas is trying to point out is that you can't have your rights within the Republic of Cyprus and at the same time live in the north under the rules of the regime there. This is nonsense.
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Ok, why do I need to be denied of my rights just because I have to live in the north. Yes, I have to live in the north because that's where I was born and that's where my family, friends are. As long as I respect the laws of the Republic of Cyprus, why does it matter if I live in the north or the south if the Republic of Cyprus indeed represents all Cypriots in all Cyprus as outlined in 1960 agreements. Are you telling me that this is not the case?
| mikkie2 wrote: |
Perhaps if those Turkish Cypriot's denounced the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', and proved that they wish to participate under the Republic of Cyprus by for example making a genuine attempt to go back to thier old homes in the south then perhaps something could be done
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What about me? I don't have a home to return to in the south. I was born and raised in Nicosia. My parents currently occupy a 100% Turkish Cypriot owned land and property. What did I do wrong (other than being born in the north) so that I need to be denied of my rights in the Republic of Cyprus?
| mikkie2 wrote: |
In fact, as Kifeas has pointed out, those that do live in the south can participate, although not under the terms of the 1960 constitution - how can a couple of thousand Turkish Cypriot's in the south take their full complement of 28 seats in the house and have position of Vice President of the Republic?
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Ok, maybe 1000-2000 Turkish Cypriots living in the south is not enough to reclaim the rights of Turkish Cypriots in the Republic of Cyprus. But what about Turkish Cypriots in the north? If they want to claim their rights, why can't they claim their rights as outlined in the constitution? I'll say one more time. You can't pick and choose the parts of the constitution and then claim that you respect the constitution.
| mikkie2 wrote: |
Representation on a pro-rata basis would be more sensible so that there is Turkish Cypriot representation in the House.
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Let me correct: "Representation on a pro-rate basis would be more sensible so that there is no Turkish Cypriot representation in the House.". This is the reality of today. Is there a single Turkish Cypriot in the House? No.
| mikkie2 wrote: |
I think it would be much better if you could offer a more constructive approach to this issue than just crying wolf all the time and trying to 'prove' that the Greek Cypriot's don't want t the Turkish Cypriot's at all in positions of power.
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I'm being constructive, that's why I've been asking questions trying to find a legitimate reason why I should be denied of my rights in the Republic of Cyprus but all I hear is lame excuses. "Prove" me wrong and point out to me how Greek Cypriots showed that they really want Turkish Cypriots back in the Republic of Cyprus as outlined in the 1960 agreements and I'll take everything I said back. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Mete wrote: |
Ah, I see and who says these rights are relative? In the 1960 constitution, does it say that if the Turkish Cypriot population goes down, then their rights within the Republic of Cyprus goes down as well? I don't think so but enlighten me if that's the case. So, what are you suggesting? That Turkish Cypriots don't even deserve their rights in 1960? If this is really what you believe, then please please, never again, blame us for not returning back to the Republic of Cyprus because what you mean by "returning to the Republic of Cyprus" is returning to a Greek Cypriot dominated republic. That's what Denktash used to tell us and we never believed in him. He really had a point and I'm not joking now. It's sad that you made me believe in Denktash after all these years.
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Any and every concept, approach and sense of natural law and justice would say so Mete! Natural law as a concept of justice does exist, and certainly would have been grossly neglected and violated in such a case. To tell me that in a theoretical scenario in which the Turkish Cypriot community would have remained only the 5% or even 10% of the population and still claim it should have the right to fill 30% of the legislature seats, 30% of the civil service, 30% of the government and the vice-presidency with all the vetoes; this crossly contradicts and violates any sense of natural law. Yes, those 1960 constitutional rights are not absolute but relative! They are a subject to natural law, natural justice and logic! |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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its difficult to accept this proposal .... even though it is sad bc these Turkish Cypriots are really those who believe in the Republic of Cyprus and do want re-unification.
there are two serious problems with accepting their proposal :
1. they represent noone but themselves. the only real representative of the Turkish Cypriots is talat.
2. put yourself in the Greek Cypriot position. what do they have to gain from such a scenario ? the Turkish Cypriots will govern the north on their own , and share power in the south. under such circumstances it is difficult to accept this proposal , even though most Greek Cypriots would welcome a return to the 1960s constitution.
my question is though : let us assume that they were given the seats in parliament. how would that help the solution process ? |
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cypezokyli
Ministerial
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2344
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thats what mama thinks about this move
| Quote: |
Turkish Cypriot move contradicts Turkish theses on Cyprus'
Seventy-eight Turkish Cypriots are planning to apply to the European court to obtain rights to elect and be elected under the 1960 Constitution of Greek Cyprus but the group primarily aims at pressing the administration in the south to sit at the table for a viable solution to Cyprus deadlock
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Turkish Cypriot international law expert, Assistant Professor Kudret Özersay, told the Turkish Daily News that he believes this action by the Turkish Cypriots implies in a manner a de facto acceptance of the divide saying, �I see this process as risky because the Turkish side is in pursuit of a bi-zonal state on the basis of new and different parameters from past experiences but the initiative by 78 Turkish Cypriots gives signals of returning to the state system of 1960, which is not a positive development.� |
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=72089
as i said, it is sad because these Turkish Cypriot indivuduals are really fighting for a united cyprus  |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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| Quote: |
| What about me? I don't have a home to return to in the south. I was born and raised in Nicosia. My parents currently occupy a 100% Turkish Cypriot owned land and property. What did I do wrong (other than being born in the north) so that I need to be denied of my rights in the Republic of Cyprus? |
Mete,
I sympathise with your position, but unfortunately I can't see how this would work. How can you exercise your rights under the Republic of Cyprus when you live in the north, pay taxes to the regime in the north, all the services that you use are supplied by the north etc etc. Would you refuse to pay your taxes to the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'? Would you refuse to pay your bills for services? Would you be prepared to go to jail in order to protect and claim your rights under the Republic of Cyprus? |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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I think that if Turkish Cypriot living in the north do renounce the T R N C, pay their taxes to the Republic of Cyprus, follow all law's, as possible, then they should of course have the same rights as the Greek Cypriot enclaved in the north.
Now, the 28 (or is it 24) Turkish Cypriot seats represents that 100,000 or Turkish Cypriot voters - in it would be expected to match this to how many votes the Turkish Cypriot Chamber actually will manage to list on its voting lists.
Another angle is that (correct me if I am wrong) several of 'the 78' are actually also in the T R N C parliament. I think it is pretty clear that in most countries these would be arrested when they enter the government controlled area - and not allowed to run for parliament... What do they plan to do: one day vote through a tax law for all of the island (the whole territory) and the next day vote through another tax law for parts of that territory? |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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isnt it a bit odd for 78 people to have the electoral rights of a whole community in asking to have 24 representatives? Maybe if a thousand Turkish Cypriots asked for their rights back, they could persuade the Republic of Cyprus to allow them at least a seat in the parliament, as a tempory measure until more Turkish Cypriots claim back their rights, as citizens in the south.
Or are these 78 asking the rigths back for the whole community, in which case, would they therefore be rejecting the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' for the whole community meaning that there is jsut an invasion force present in the north (and not also a defacto state?) |
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