www.talkcyprus.org

[city]

very interesting article in Sunday Mail:

Quote: The stark truth about return of refugees
By Loucas Charalambous
(archive article - Sunday, December 16, 2007)

“THE RETURN of all refugees to their homes” remains the most popular slogan of our politicians and the issue closest to the hearts of our na?ve journalists.

A ludicrous dispute about the issue of the refugees, which surfaced last week, came as confirmation that, 33 years after the invasion, instead of dealing with the substance of the problem, we are still occupying ourselves with slogans and rhetoric.

The question at the centre of this dispute was whether it was possible, in the event of a settlement, for all refugees to return to their homes, without the Greek Cypriots being a majority in the north. We are talking here about a myth that is more absurd than the idea of the European solution that everyone seems to have dropped recently..............

full article with detailed breakdown of numbers

are these numbers realistic, do they have substance?

[repulsewarrior]

The issue is placed in a very real frame, with this thinking. However, much depends on how we view communities and their ability to sustain themselves. Turkish Cypriots, especially settlers, if they were offered homes instead of houses, would move to communities in the south where they can live as a majority, as the presently displaced would return to their homesteads in groups, if with it was a community in which they could grow.

I do not believe that in the long run, anything but the repopulation of the island can resolve the many issues which will fester unless all Cypriots see themselves as united, quite simply as this island's dwellers. Accomadating the identity of Cypriots as Greeks, or Turks is as important, but to the rest of the world, this should be an internal matter, and two National Assemblies can govern the population in their territories by respecting and recognising the minorities that live amongst them.

Bizonal meaning something in two each with many parts is not anathema, just as Bicommunal means having a State as well as two more constituent bodies.

[stavrizatz]

Quote: The truth is that almost none of them would want to resettle in the north under Turkish Cypriot administration. How realistic is it to expect working people to quit their jobs in Larnaca or Limassol, in order to go and make their home in Kyrenia, Trikomo or Kythrea? How would they earn a living? Would they give up work or commute? What would all those who were underage in 1974 do in Lefkoniko or Akanthou? Would they be growing wheat or picking olives and carobs?

I agree with Loukas that not so many Greek Cypriots will move to the North after a solution however what is important is that those who chose to do so, should have the right to return. However ansewring the other question "what would those underage do in Lefkoniko or Akanthou" is not from anyones business. All refugees both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have the right to return and it is up to them what they will do with their properties.

As for those who settled in refugee properties, i believe it is simple. When you live for 33 years in house renting it, you wouldn't tell the owner "I am not giving your property back to you" so why demand a house that was rent free for 33years!!! however

[city]

imo, this article is stating quite clearly what I was thinking all along. In order to find a satisfactory solution we need to know how many peole would actually return. Only then we can think of real measures to accomodate this wish. It's no use in searching for a solution for everybody when not everybody wants to return. I believe this is a very realistic approach.

[erolz]

city wrote: imo, this article is stating quite clearly what I was thinking all along. In order to find a satisfactory solution we need to know how many peole would actually return. Only then we can think of real measures to accomodate this wish. It's no use in searching for a solution for everybody when not everybody wants to return. I believe this is a very realistic approach.

I quite agree and have said as much before

http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53431#53431

erolz wrote: For me if you wish to look for practical sensible ways to solve the current property issue, you do not start with 'it is an imperative that anyone who wishes to return to pre 74 property must be allowed to so so (regardless of any human cost to others this migh require)'. Where you actiually have to start is by working out how many people _actually_ want to return and how many other people would have to be displaced in order to achieve this. No one wants to do this as far as I can see - we prefer to talk about 'ideas' and 'prinicpals' and not practical solutions. Thus we do not even have an idea of what the real extent of the actual problem might be (or not) - but instead stick with the intractable 'rehtoric' positions of 'ideals' and 'fundamental prinicplas'.

and

http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=54432#54432

erolz wrote: The statring point would be a comprehensive survey to establish how many people from both sides can not be offered a personal solution to which they are willing to consent. That has to be the practical start to trying to solve a problem - namely to establish the extent of the problem.

[stavrizatz]

city wrote: It's no use in searching for a solution for everybody when not everybody wants to return. I believe this is a very realistic approach.

It is the right and the choice of the refugees if they want to return or not, what are we talking about!

Eg. My family comes from Kontemenos and 2 out of the 4 brothers/sisters (on my mother's side) want to return given the opportunity. The other two will not be able to right now due to work obligations but they might chose to do so in 5-10 years. Isn't their right to do so? What they will loose their homes and properties because they are not able to return instantly? Others might want to claim their properties and then sell them, others might want to use those properties as their holiday places. How can someone measure everyone who will return. Imo the most realistic and fair approach is simple... to use the laws recognised internationally.

[depurple]

Boys I would just some apartment on my land and rent them and leave one for me: every time I would go to Cyprus I would straight to Kyrenia: If anyone in the south wanted to visit me GREAT!
I have done my own asking with my own family and on 10% would return:
Most have resettled elsewhere BUT like I have said before GIVE them a choice NOT force a choice upon them:
cheers

[repulsewarrior]

If Cypriots want to respect themselves they must be committed to the Right of Return. Whether a Turcophone from 1963, or a Grecophone in 1974, these people were victimised by criminal acts, which require redress. Settlers, i remind you will be displaced, a significant consideration and another humanitarian concern, as will a whole lot of people, whatever solution is found, because there is a need for the redistribution of the land. In any case it is far more likely that the majority of the displaced will find solice in collecting rent, or in selling. However, individuals in groups, as people, are more resilient to new beginnings, and my proposal to create enclaves which spot the entire island will allow the existing line to remain, giving many thousands the opportunity to repopulate, as communities, without destroying the fabric of either society, it will add to their diversity, and it will add competing forces to the two National Assemblies that would have Jurisdiction over this assemblage of territory called a Zone. Certainly, respect and recognition of the needs of Minorities will be reciprocated if as Grecophones or as Turcophones, they can better represent themselves as a majority, as a people of Goodwill.

[stavrizatz]

depurple wrote: GIVE them a choice NOT force a choice upon them

I like that sentnece, I agree

[city]

stavri, I do not mean to take anyones rights away!
All I said is that there is a need to evaluate how big the number of people concerned is, in order to find a viable solution. Don't you think its easier to find a solution when you know exactly how big the problem is instead of juggling around with theoretical numbers?

[stavrizatz]

city wrote: stavri, I do not mean to take anyones rights away!
All I said is that there is a need to evaluate how big the number of people concerned is, in order to find a viable solution. Don't you think its easier to find a solution when you know exactly how big the problem is instead of juggling around with theoretical numbers?

Just to clarify, I have to ask you what do you mean by 'viable solution'? We know how big the problem, we know how much land belongs to Turkish Cypriots in South and how much to Greek Cypriots in North. I cannot understand how would someone answer to a question "Will you go back to your properties in case of a solution, provided that you are free to choose." The majority might say yes so as to claim their properties, whether if they go or not, it is a different story.

Of course a research examining this will be good but I cannot relate to how it would help in terms of finding a viable solution.

[Mete]

stavrizatz wrote:
Of course a research examining this will be good but I cannot relate to how it would help in terms of finding a viable solution.

As you might agree, in a future federal solution, there will be a north state where majority of residents would be Turkish Cypriots and a south state where majority of residents would be Greek Cypriots. At least this is the type of scenario Turkish Cypriots have in mind for a solution in the short term.

While there's no question about which land belongs to Greek Cypriots, right of return will have to be restricted for some Greek Cypriots, at least for the short term. Otherwise, it would be pointless to have two states if both of those states will be dominated by Greek Cypriots numerically.

So, the research city pointed out would be useful in that sense. Don't worry, nobody is saying that if a Greek Cypriot does not return to his/her land, he/she loses her right to that land. This cannot happen in today's world.

[depurple]

Mete model it like Australia!
We have 8 states and no one cares about religion , ethnic back ground or language!
The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will be a state BUT the Greek Cypriot can live go and live there and the same goes for the Turkish Cypriot in the Republic of Cyprus!
BUT just waiting for the problem to disappear or for the EU to justify a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus or hope that the EU turns a blind eye is impossible!
I know most Turkish Cypriot are looking at Kosovo BUT lets wait and see what happens!
BUT then Kosovo didn't FORM out of an invasion during an UN agreed ceasefire with UN resolutions! Did it?
cheers

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: Of course a research examining this will be good but I cannot relate to how it would help in terms of finding a viable solution.

Of course everyone needs REDRESS. The point is to work out how many people can get the redress of their first choice without that affecting anyone else and how many cases there will be where first choice redress of one party requires another party to loose their first choice of redress. That is the extent of the problem in practical, not rhetoric and ideology laden terms. If a Turkish Cypriot who lost land in the south does not WANT to return to that property in the south but DOES want to stay where they are and have safe deeds to the property they are on, and if the Greek Cypriot whose land pre 74 they are now on also does not want return - then there is no practical problem. What we need to know is in how many cases will their be a conflict of 'wants' by the concerned parties - that is the extent of the problem. We have not come close to working this out and never will if all we stick to is rhetoric about inviolable right of return. Along with a right of return is the right to NOT return and to not have ones life once again ripped up from the roots and thrown into chaos - most especially if this is forced on someone just so another party can have their 'right to return' which they do not want now and many never want.

[cypezokyli]

I disagree with this point adressed not only by lucas haralambous, but i ve also heard it from christofias, or even the "socialist initiative". to be honest i find the whole point rediculus.

the first reason i argued in a past thread. we are not talking about the "will to return" but the "right to return".

besides that there are serious practical problems
for that to work the following should happen:
1. make a cencus where every refugee would say if he wants to return or not
2. that every refuge who does not want to return prefers compensation (with the current land prices, anyone prefering money instead of land must be either in great need or a real moron)
3. that we have a significant amount of Greek Cypriots who do not want to return in the Turkish Cypriot state, so as not to disturb the bizonality - as Turkish Cypriots understand that term
4. that for all those Greek Cypriot who want to return, it is possible to do so - especially after the building boom of the last 4 years.

for all this i find the above proposal without any meaning