www.talkcyprus.org

[stavrizatz]

After 33 years of Turkish occupation, Greek Cypriots cry out for the horrible consequences of the tragic events of 74. However those who suffered the most during the last 50 years and still suffering are the Turkish Cypriots. First Turkish Cypriots had to go through the inter-communal conflict between 1963 and 67 which resulted in the death of more than 200 Turkish Cypriots while many more remain missing, further 700 Turkish Cypriots were taken as hostages and some 20,000 fled their homes of whom approximately 5000 were displaced by Greek Cypriots and 15000 were moved on the direction of Turkish military. In 1974 when the Turkish military intervened in order to protect the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek junta Turkish Cypriots welcome them with excitement and as a political victory against the traditional enemy. Little did they know that Turkey had little interest in protecting the Turkish Cypriots. The strategic interests of Turkey were far more important than the ordinary Turkish Cypriots who experienced the supermilitarisation of their country and the arrival of settlers from the poorest parts of Anatolia, to replace their compatriots who were forced to flee their homes.

The extreme change of demographic in the occupied areas of Cyprus left many Turkish Cypriots dissatisfied. Turkish Cypriots became a minority within their own communal sector, their governance came under direct control of the Turkish military and their standards of living dropped down. Soon after 1974, many Turkish Cypriots chose to leave Cyprus and search for a better future overseas. They couldn’t stand the rise in crime as a result of arrival of the settlers, they couldn’t stand the presence of the army in every single corner of their country, they couldn’t stand the order that came from above and as Sener Levent said “what does a Turkish General know of Nicosia nights that smell of jasmine?”

Later, on the 15th of November 1983, came the self-declaration of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. What a joke, to declare a foreign territory as your own and expect the international community to recognise it and allow it to faction as an independent state! Through UN Security Council Resolution 541 of 1983 and 550 of 1984 condemned this unilateral declaration by the Turkish Cypriot regime, declared is both illegal and invalid, and called for its immediate revocation. Being clear from the beginning that this spurious entity would have to rely entirely on Turkey for its economic development, the politicians managed to convince the public that the economic isolation of Turkish Cypriots comes from the Greeks and not from their own actions in the past.

The years past by and Turkish Cypriots looking at the progress made in the free areas of Cyprus, they saw the need for change. When it was declared that the Republic of Cyprus would join the European Union, Turkish Cypriots in their masses pursue social change and they set a motion towards a re-unified Cyprus. The regime of mr. Rauf Denktash could not resist such strong opposition. He went back to the negotiating table and along with other architects (the Americans and the British) they master planned the permanent partition, we all know it – the famous Anan plan. Looking at it I really envy the political mastery of Turkey. The plan gave some concessions to Greek Cypriots, it really pleased Turkish Cypriots who found the perfect opportunity to stop their isolation and it allowed anglo-americans and Turkey to claim benefits and be in a win-win situation. The plan was designed to unfold a Greek Cypriot NO and Turkish Cypriot YES and it succeeded.

Now the Anan plan is used as a political instrument by Turkey and its campaign to free it self from the responsibilities carried by the occupation of Cyprus, it blames the Greek Cypriot community and labels it as “not interested in a unified Cyprus”. The poor Turkish Cypriots believe it and many lost hope in re-unifying Cyprus. Following their leadership, many have also started to blame Greek Cypriots for their isolation. But what can the Republic of Cyprus do? It cannot allow an illegal by international law state to operate as an independent country, it cannot change its status as the legal directors of the whole of Cyprus but it does offer the Turkish Cypriots to trade throught the legal ports of the Republic of Cyprus. But guess what, will Turkey and the administration of the North allow it? I don’t think so! It is not in their interest. Playing the role of a victim serves very well the political propaganda.

Let’s leave the victim politics aside and all the jazz associate with it, and let’s take ownership of our own problems and find ways to resolve them. Let’s find ways to stop the isolation of our Turkish Cypriot brothers.

As for the politics of Turkey, I have to congratulate them, A+.

[erolz]

Hi Stav. Did you write this yourself ?

Either way some comments.

stavrizatz wrote: ... and some 20,000 fled their homes of whom approximately 5000 were displaced by Greek Cypriots and 15000 were moved on the direction of Turkish military.

Where is the evidence that 15,000 Turkish Cypriot left their homes at the direction of the Turkish military ? There is very credible evidence that this was not the case. Detailed studies from the likes of Richard A. Patrick who concludes

Quote: The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity.

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/www.cyprus-conflict.net/patrick%20chp%203%20pt%202.html

There are in my view other glaring statements of 'fact' in this article that are far from fact in reality but I will not analyse every single one.

I will comment on this idea the Republic of Cyprus has nothing to do with the isolations the Turkish Cypriot community experience and they are solely the effects of non recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This is in my view disingenuous claptrap. The Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot organisations consistently do everything in their power to maximise the effects on the Turkish Cypriot community of international non recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. There are countless examples of this I could cite.

[stavrizatz]

erolz wrote: Hi Stav. Did you write this yourself ?

If I didn't write it myself, wouldn't I have to reference it?

erolz wrote: Where is the evidence that 15,000 Turkish Cypriot left their homes at the direction of the Turkish military ? There is very credible evidence that this was not the case. Detailed studies from the likes of Richard A. Patrick who concludes

Quote: The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity.

I remember reading Richard A. Patrick and I do not remember understanding the opposite of Argyris Argyrou (I got the 15000 from him). I will get back to you as soon as I read it but if you rely on the above quote as evidence of prooving the oposite, it doesn't show anything. No doubt some Turkish Cypriots left their villagers immediately after the violence but taken the opportunity partitionist encouraged Turkish Cypriots to withdraw into enclaves to create territorial basis for partition...that is my understanding.


erolz wrote: I will comment on this idea the Republic of Cyprus has nothing to do with the isolations the Turkish Cypriot community experience and they are solely the effects of non recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This is in my view disingenuous claptrap. The Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot organisations consistently do everything in their power to maximise the effects on the Turkish Cypriot community of international non recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. There are countless examples of this I could cite.

Ofcourse the Republic of Cyprus will do everything for not recognition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, ofcourse we won't support the recognition of a state risen in our country as a result of foreign occupation. However the isolation of Turkish Cypriots does not come from non recognition. Look at what's happening now at the buffer zone. Anyway I am looking forward to discussing your dissagreements

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: If I didn't write it myself, wouldn't I have to reference it?

Hey I only asked. Not everyone references stuff they post and anyone can forget to put a source.

stavrizatz wrote: I remember reading Richard A. Patrick and I do not remember understanding the opposite of Argyris Argyrou (I got the 15000 from him).

Ok let me try some more extensive quoting for you.

Quote: The official Greek-Cypriot position is that the major portion of the Turkish-Cypriot refugee movement was both initiated and directed by Turkish-Cypriot leaders in accordance with a contingency plan to facilitate partition. Turkish-Cypriot leaders, on the other hand, claim that they had not developed any such contingency plan for population consolidation, nor did they initiate the movements which did occur. These leaders claim that their community members moved because they were intimidated by Greek-Cypriots, and that Turk-Cypriots fled, without prior planning, to the nearest refuge.

Argyris Argyrou mirrors the official Greek position, which is hardly surprising.

Richard Patrick, a non Cypriot academic who meticulously studied the period and who's work is considered among the most authoritative accounts of the period first outlines the 'offical positions' as shown above and then he draws conclusions based on the evidence of his meticulous and authoritative study. What he concludes is

Quote: The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity.

So if you believe Argyris Argyrou the overwhelming majority of Turkish Cypriot fled their homes because Turkey / Turkish Cypriot leaders ordered them to do so. If you believe Richard Patrick overwhelming majority of Turkish Cypriot fled their homes as a result of Greek Cypriot violence and fear of it. Can you spot the difference ? Which of the two sources do you think is most credible as an independent source ?

stavrizatz wrote: I will get back to you as soon as I read it but if you rely on the above quote as evidence of prooving the oposite, it doesn't show anything. No doubt some Turkish Cypriots left their villagers immediately after the violence but taken the opportunity partitionist encouraged Turkish Cypriots to withdraw into enclaves to create territorial basis for partition...that is my understanding.

Your understanding is that of the standard Greek Cypriot position. It is not supported by evidence from the likes of Mr Patrick. There is no doubt that having fled their homes Turkish Cypriot were subject to pressure to not return to their home but to stay in the enclaves and Mr Patricks work shows this reality. However what is in essence just propaganda in my view is that the reason why Turkish Cypriot in general fled their homes in the first place was they were ordered to do so by Turkey / Turkish Cypriot leadership. As well as Mr Patricks detailed and authoritative work, one only has to use logic. Would you flee your home because TP told you to in order to help the Greek Cypriot cause in Cyprus ? I doubt it. Would you flee your home if you felt your life and that of your family was in danger ? People do not flee their homes on orders from politicians to pursue a political agenda. They flee them because of fear. Even if I were to take such instructions, which I would not nor would most people, I would not flee my home. I would order a deliver truck and pack up all my processions and leave in the same manner as if I was moving house. This is NOT how most Turkish Cypriot fled their homes. Most did so in a rushed unorganised manner, often carrying no more than the clothes on their backs and a few processions they could grab. Again this reality is also descibed in Mr Paticks work.

stavrizatz wrote: Ofcourse the Republic of Cyprus will do everything for not recognition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, ofcourse we won't support the recognition of a state risen in our country as a result of foreign occupation. However the isolation of Turkish Cypriots does not come from non recognition. Look at what's happening now at the buffer zone. Anyway I am looking forward to discussing your dissagreements

Look when Luton town come to play a friendly football game in the North what stops that game being played is the Greek Cypriot objections seeking to MAXIMISE the effects of isolation. They seek to maximise this isolation not because they fear that Luton town football club playing a friendly in the north would lead to recognition and abandonment of the UN resolutions on Cyprus - the very notion is absurd. They do it in the context of trying to use the non recognition of the north to maintain a maximum isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community there. We could be alot less isolated in the North and STILL not recognised internationally as a separate state and the reason we are not is the concerted campaign by the Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot orgnaisations. That is why it is nonsense to claim that the isolation I experience as a Turkish Cypriot are nothing to do with Greek Cypriot. It is just not true. Many , not all but many of them could end without any recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus if the Greek Cypriot did not wage this campaign to ensure maximum effects of non recognition.

If you say to me that the Republic of Cyprus naturally seeks to maximise the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community in the North to maintain as much leverage as possible , then I have no problem and do not think that is particularly aytpical (we would prob do same in reverse). What does annoy me is when Greek Cypriot tell me the Republic of Cyprus does nothing to maximise this isolation and where it does it is because it fears the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will get recongnised internationally as a separate and sovereign state if it did not seek to maximise the effects. That to me is just nonsense.

Isolation of the north is leverage for the Republic of Cyprus. That is what motivates the vast majority of it's efforts for maximising the effects of isolation at every possible opportunity.

[stavrizatz]

So because Argyris Argyrou is a Greek Cypriot he must be automatically wrong! I do not underestimate the research of Richard A. Patrick, but he did not say anything to prove the opposite and the numbers of those who were forced to flee their homes by Greek Cypriots and how many left on the direction of the Turkish Cypriot leadership. No one doubts that Turkish Cypriots were forced to leave only after intercommunal violence but that doesn't necessarilly mean that the Turkish Cypriot leadership did not attempt to scare Turkish Cypriots and encourage them to leave their homes. Also there is no doubt that the Turkish Cypriot leadership at the time was seeking opportunities to divide Cyprus, not to mention their strict rules that did not allow Turkish Cypriots to have friendly association with Greek Cypriots and that there were penalties for those who did so. Anyway that is not the topic I would like to discuss in this thread, I want to discuss the 'so called' isolation of the Turkish Cypriots. Actually it is an interesting topic and I think there is allready a thread on, should we continue that conversation there?

Give us a bit of background what happened with Luton town football club and how exactly did the Republic of Cyprus stop them by visiting Cyprus? I cannot understand what exactly you are trying to tell me. If you want to blame the Republic of Cyprus for the isolation of Turkish Cypriot, also tell how this is done. Are you trying to tell us that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus should be recognise as an independent state?, and do you expect the Republic of Cyprus not to campaign against the establishment of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is equally absurd to think that the Turkish military whould invade a foreign state ethnically cleanse 200.000 Greek Cypriots, attempt to establish a new state in their country and not expect the Republic of Cyprus to campaign against such a state!!! Non recognition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and isolation of Turkish Cypriots are two separate things.

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: So because Argyris Argyrou is a Greek Cypriot he must be automatically wrong!

Not automaticaly but when you have a Cypriot from EITHER side pushing essentialy the standard offical view of their side and then you have an independent academic whose work is considered one of the most authorative of the period saying actualy the reality was not like that , then the chances are the indpendent person is nearer the truth. That is just common sense to me.

stavrizatz wrote:
I do not underestimate the research of Richard A. Patrick, but he did not say anything to prove the opposite and the numbers of those who were forced to flee their homes by Greek Cypriots and how many left on the direction of the Turkish Cypriot leadership. No one doubts that Turkish Cypriots were forced to leave only after intercommunal violence but that doesn't necessarilly mean that the Turkish Cypriot leadership did not attempt to scare Turkish Cypriots and encourage them to leave their homes. Also there is no doubt that the Turkish Cypriot leadership at the time was seeking opportunities to divide Cyprus, not to mention their strict rules that did not allow Turkish Cypriots to have friendly association with Greek Cypriots and that there were penalties for those who did so.


To be honest it is depressing to me that you can read Richard A. Patrick work and still beleive that of the 20,000 (a low end figure) Turkish Cypriot that FLED their homes in this period 15,000 did so because Turkey orderd them to do so. The truth is that the vast majority fled their homes because of Greek Cypriot violence against them and fear of such.

stavrizatz wrote: If you want to blame the Republic of Cyprus for the isolation of Turkish Cypriot, also tell how this is done. Are you trying to tell us that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus should be recognise as an independent state?, and do you expect the Republic of Cyprus not to campaign against the establishment of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is equally absurd to think that the Turkish military whould invade a foreign state ethnically cleanse 200.000 Greek Cypriots, attempt to establish a new state in their country and not expect the Republic of Cyprus to campaign against such a state!!! Non recognition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and isolation of Turkish Cypriots are two separate things.

Try reading the UN secretary generals recent report where he said

“It is regrettable that the ongoing debate on the lifting of the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots has become one about recognition,”

Reducing isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state are not the same thing. Luton town could have played a friendly in the North and it would have to some small degree reduced the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus would still NOT be recognised just because they did. Yet the relevant Greek Cypriot bodies did everything in their power to stop such a game happening. They did so to maintain maximum isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community and not because allowing the game to go ahead would have led to recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The same can be said of direct trade, direct flights entry of north universitiesd into bolongoa process and many other things. The Republic of Cyprus could chose to not block these things without risking recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state but they chose otherwise. The reason they chose otherwise is that they want maximum isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community as leverage against them in the process of negotiating a settlement, and not because such things would lead to recognition.

[Kifeas]

erolz wrote:
Try reading the UN secretary generals recent report where he said

“It is regrettable that the ongoing debate on the lifting of the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots has become one about recognition,”

Reducing isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state are not the same thing. Luton town could have played a friendly in the North and it would have to some small degree reduced the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus would still NOT be recognised just because they did. Yet the relevant Greek Cypriot bodies did everything in their power to stop such a game happening. They did so to maintain maximum isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community and not because allowing the game to go ahead would have led to recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The same can be said of direct trade, direct flights entry of north universitiesd into bolongoa process and many other things. The Republic of Cyprus could chose to not block these things without risking recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state but they chose otherwise. The reason they chose otherwise is that they want maximum isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community as leverage against them in the process of negotiating a settlement, and not because such things would lead to recognition.

Okay Erol, let’s assume you are right! The fact that Turkey in 1974 occupied 36% of Cyprus -twice as much as the Turkish Cypriot population’s fair share, and the fact that it usurped all the properties of nearly 200 thousand Greek Cypriots and up to this day it denies access to them, after expelling nearly all of them from the north -everything with the blessings of the Turkish Cypriot community and its leadership; aren't these due to its aim to blackmail, extort and maintain maximum leverage against the Greek Cypriot community in the process of negotiating a settlement?

I mean, what are you complaining for? Turkey and your community’s leadership are enforcing and maintaining an even worst type of embargo, isolation and hostage taking, on a larger amount of people, than the other way around; essentially for the same purpose! Why wasn’t this mentioned in the UN SG’s report? Isn't it a fact? Is it a lie?

Oh, I nearly forgot about it, you said "yes" to the Annan plan!

[repulsewarrior]

...interesting...

Regarding the Turkish State,

Greek Cypriots, even as Grecophones within their governing territory, as a minority, are a very small speck to Turkey, (if one compares them to this population, Turcophone, as a whole). The island as an independent State is not recognised by Turkey. In those terms, the Human Rights of all Cypriots have been suspended, even if in the north there is an authority which Turkey recognises as a government.

Looking at this problem from an historical perspective, Turcophones and Grecophones of Cypriot origin, were divided into being "Greeks" or "Turks" toward benefiting the Nationalism of the interlocutory powers.

With the advent of the Modern Age, the creation of Greece, and the struggle for this unification, Turkey and Greece became two adversaries, Cyprus became a final frontier. And then the failure of the Junta allowed for Turkey's preeminence in the region...

...so Greek Cypriots are even more isolated, (and Turkish Cypriots, are on the brink of oblivion).
Much injustice serves illegal occupation, leaving the Peoples' Republic impotent, yet, its Right to defending its Sovereignty is a basic principal of Mankind.

On the other hand, without respect and recognition, Turkey can sustain their enterprise,
with the confidence that its assimulation over time will be complete.

[erolz]

Kifeas wrote: I mean, what are you complaining for?

My only 'complaint' is when Greek Cypriot tell me that the isolation the Turkish Cypriot community face in the north are nothing to do with the actions of Greek Cypriot or the Republic of Cyprus at all. If they tell me that Greek Cypriot and Republic of Cyprus quite naturally are not gonna do anything in their power to reduce the effect of those isolation I do not really have any complaint. I just object to the BS that the Republic of Cyprus and Greek Cypriot do not seek to maximise the isolations on the Turkish Cypriot community in the north and with some real effect.

[Mete]

And my complaint is that nobody is really looking for a solution to the real problems right now. We're rather focusing on the sub-problems caused by the real problem. Greek Cypriot leadership is currently focusing on non-recognition of T R N C. Turkish Cypriot leadership is currently focusing on upgrading T R N C to something like Taiwan. You read a lot about these in the press but you don't read anything about how we're increasing the trust between the two communities, you don't read anything about how we'll deal with land issues and so on.

Isolations will end with a solution. Most of the land issues will be solved with a solution. There won't be a recognition issue with a solution. Why don't we cut the crap and start talking on the real issues for once?

[repulsewarrior]

good obsevation Mete

...in my wildest dreams, the Republic, at least the government of the Republic would be so bold as to declare its intention to build a Port itself in the north, welcoming private investors who are Cypriot to participate. My hope is that there are Turkish Cypriots wealthy enough and interested enough to partake in the venture, (dp, think of the corruption from this one) and by the force of its momentum, i dream that it cannot be stopped.

Such a port, even as a tiny enclave, would allow for the possibility that Turkish Cypriots can trade with external partners, and that their Association with others does not include having to cross the Green Line with their goods, subjecting themselves to an identity that is exclusive, either "Greek" or 'Turk", unlike their brethren in the south who trade freely, without this hinderance, as Cypriots.

[stavrizatz]

erolz wrote:
Try reading the UN secretary generals recent report where he said

“It is regrettable that the ongoing debate on the lifting of the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots has become one about recognition,”

And that is the reason I decided to right about the myth that isolation of Turkish Cypriots is a result of Republic of Cyprus policies.

erolz wrote:
Luton town could have played a friendly in the North and it would have to some small degree reduced the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus would still NOT be recognised just because they did. Yet the relevant Greek Cypriot bodies did everything in their power to stop such a game happening. They did so to maintain maximum isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community and not because allowing the game to go ahead would have led to recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Before you start blaming tell us under what conditions did Luton town were going to play a friendly match in Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus is more that willing to end the isolation with the condition that activities will not occur delibarately to upgrate the status of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and I think that is a very reasonable condition. Turkish Cypriots can participate in any kind of sporting event as long as they play under the Republic of Cyprus flag and not the flag of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus

erolz wrote: The same can be said of direct trade, direct flights entry of north universitiesd into bolongoa process and many other things. The Republic of Cyprus could chose to not block these things without risking recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state but they chose otherwise.

The same can be said and Turkish Cypriots can have trade, can flight from and to Cyprus but only from the legal ports of the island. If there is a need for an airport and a port in the North? Again not a problem as long as it is under the legislative control of the legal government of Cyprus and it follows the guidelines of EU.
erolz wrote: The reason they chose otherwise is that they want maximum isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community as leverage against them in the process of negotiating a settlement, and not because such things would lead to recognition.
That is assumption that you make, it is not "the reason". Politically the Republic of Cyprus has no reason to maximise the isolation on Turkish Cypriots and please separate the isolation of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus with the isolation of Turkish Cypriots. I believe Republic of Cyprus took good measures to stop this isolation eg.

-The government has always supplied Turkish Cypriots a number of essential services for free such as the supply of electricity.

-The government supported the EU financial assistance to benefit Turkish Cypriots.

-Many Turkish Cypriots are now working in the government-controlled areas and enjoy all sort of benefits, including free medical care, pensions and social security benefits.

-The majority of Turkish Cypriots acquired Republic of Cyprus ID cards and passports and are able to seek all EU benefits.

However Turkey has in the past prevented Turkish Cypriots from acquiring such benefits. Not only that they have brought low-paid settlers who pushed Turkish Cypriots out of their own labour market. They have controlled the economy through conditional aid, direct instructions and management, creating an inefficient system. On top of that Turkey has been behind the rejection of every attempt by Turkish Cypriot leaders to implement confidence-building measures because such measures would not promote recognition of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Your own leadership is depriving Turkish Cypriots of significant economic benefits for political reasons.

And think about it. Look at all the benefits that Turkish Cypriots got from the decision of Turkey to open the buffer zone. The economic activity and trade across the green line has helped double the per capita income of Turkish Cypriots.

I think it's a shame when the phrase "Isolation of Turkish Cypriots" became a political slogan.

[erolz]

Sorry I do not currently have the time or will to answer your post fully.

stavrizatz wrote: The Republic of Cyprus is more that willing to end the isolation with the condition that activities will not occur delibarately to upgrate the status of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and I think that is a very reasonable condition.

If the 'allowing' (ie not protesting) of such a match would have led to an upgrading of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a political entity then such an argument would be credible. I do not think that not stopping such a match would or does upgrade the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a political entity so I find it hard to believe that this is the real reason that those that sought to stop it did so.

Like I have said before I think it is perfectly understandable and inevitable that the Republic of Cyprus and other Greek Cypriot entities seek to maximise the effects of international isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community. What does bug me is Greek Cypriot telling me (and the world) that they do not do this when so clearly they do.

[Leon]

Kifeas wrote: erolz wrote:
Try reading the UN secretary generals recent report where he said

“It is regrettable that the ongoing debate on the lifting of the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots has become one about recognition,”

Reducing isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state are not the same thing. Luton town could have played a friendly in the North and it would have to some small degree reduced the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus would still NOT be recognised just because they did. Yet the relevant Greek Cypriot bodies did everything in their power to stop such a game happening. They did so to maintain maximum isolation on the Turkish Cypriot community and not because allowing the game to go ahead would have led to recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The same can be said of direct trade, direct flights entry of north universitiesd into bolongoa process and many other things. The Republic of Cyprus could chose to not block these things without risking recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a sovreign state but they chose otherwise. The reason they chose otherwise is that they want maximum isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community as leverage against them in the process of negotiating a settlement, and not because such things would lead to recognition.

Okay Erol, let’s assume you are right! The fact that Turkey in 1974 occupied 36% of Cyprus -twice as much as the Turkish Cypriot population’s fair share, and the fact that it usurped all the properties of nearly 200 thousand Greek Cypriots and up to this day it denies access to them, after expelling nearly all of them from the north -everything with the blessings of the Turkish Cypriot community and its leadership; aren't these due to its aim to blackmail, extort and maintain maximum leverage against the Greek Cypriot community in the process of negotiating a settlement?

I mean, what are you complaining for? Turkey and your community’s leadership are enforcing and maintaining an even worst type of embargo, isolation and hostage taking, on a larger amount of people, than the other way around; essentially for the same purpose! Why wasn’t this mentioned in the UN SG’s report? Isn't it a fact? Is it a lie?

Oh, I nearly forgot about it, you said "yes" to the Annan plan!

I have to agree totally with Kifeas and stavrizatz here.

I believe the embargoes are on the occupied territory and its false government, not the Turkish Cypriot people. I believe their isolation is a big myth that is part of the twisted plan to gain recognition for the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. 90,920 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus birth certificates; 79,497 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus identity cards; 49,156 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus passports, not to mention thousands who now work in the south, many of whom do so whilst living cheaply and happily in the occupied north. They, therefore, have the opportunity to be part of the European Union and reap the benefits (that's what the europhiles would call it) as any other member state.

This isolation tripe does not exist.

I hate to say this but I strongly encourage Turkish Cypriots to come flooding to the south (better them than an infinite number of Russians, Germans, and Britons). Integration into the Republic of Cyprus, of which legally they are all a part, may be vital to disestablishing the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. The sooner the illegal regime in the north crumbles the better. It's harsh, it's not nice, but it may just be the only fair (yes, fair) way to drive towards the re-unification of our island. There I said it!

erolz, if the match between Luton Town and a Turkish Cypriot team will not upgrade the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' as a political entity then you wouldn't mind that it was stopped. It may not have had a major life-changing effect, but I would prefer any bona fide dealings of whatever kind not to exist.

Happy New Year!

[Mete]

stavrizatz wrote:
Turkish Cypriots can participate in any kind of sporting event as long as they play under the Republic of Cyprus flag and not the flag of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus

What you don't get is that the Republic of Cyprus, as it stands today, is a Greek Cypriot only republic and it does not represent Turkish Cypriots. You could have blamed Turkish Cypriots for their lack of representation in the Republic of Cyprus before but recently a group of Turkish Cypriots tried to reclaim their rights in the Republic of Cyprus but it got denied! Kifeas can provide you more details on that.
Leon wrote:
I believe the embargoes are on the occupied territory and its false government, not the Turkish Cypriot people

And where do vast majority of Turkish Cypriots live? Mars? Yes, embargoes are on the "occupied territory" but most Turkish Cypriots live on this "occupied territory" without a real choice and hence live under the embargoes.
Leon wrote:
90,920 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus birth certificates; 79,497 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus identity cards; 49,156 Turkish Cypriots have Republic of Cyprus passports, not to mention thousands who now work in the south, many of whom do so whilst living cheaply and happily in the occupied north.

Ok, many Turkish Cypriots claimed some of their legal benefits under Republic of Cyprus but you know this is not the real issue. The issue is not a bunch of ID cards or passports. The issue is this in simple terms: Are Turkish Cypriots a mere minority like Cypriot Armenians or Maronites or are they one of the politically equal co-founders of the Republic of Cyprus? Can Turkish Cypriots fully participate in the Republic of Cyprus today as it is outlined in the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus? The answer is no.
Leon wrote:
I hate to say this but I strongly encourage Turkish Cypriots to come flooding to the south (better them than an infinite number of Russians, Germans, and Britons).

And this could indeed happen after borders were opened...Did you ever ask yourself why it didn't happen?
Leon wrote:
Integration into the Republic of Cyprus, of which legally they are all a part, may be vital to disestablishing the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus'. The sooner the illegal regime in the north crumbles the better. It's harsh, it's not nice, but it may just be the only fair (yes, fair) way to drive towards the re-unification of our island. There I said it!

I'd love to integrate into the Republic of Cyprus as it was outlined in the Republic of Cyprus constitution. My question to you and other Greek Cypriots is that are you ready to accept Turkish Cypriots into the Republic of Cyprus as outlined in its constitution? My feeling is no. It might sound harsh and not nice but that's the impression I got.