www.talkcyprus.org

[Mete]

AQMessiah wrote:
I won't add myself to the problem and if anyone really, truly wants to see Cyprus United again they'll do the same and let go of the past.

I don't get how and why letting go of the past is a requirement for a united Cyprus. I don't get what your suggestion is for a solution either.

[AQMessiah]

Mete wrote: AQMessiah wrote:
I won't add myself to the problem and if anyone really, truly wants to see Cyprus United again they'll do the same and let go of the past.

I don't get how and why letting go of the past is a requirement for a united Cyprus. I don't get what your suggestion is for a solution either.

We've been arguing with each other for the past 30 years. Over what... Who threw the first stone? Is it not obvious how destructive that 20 some years has been for all us Cypriots? Accept that we all fucked up and move on already.
I don't recall myself suggesting a solution Mete. But if you're sincerely interested, I'd reopen Varosha, lift the embargo, remove all Greek and Turkish troops. How's that for some confidence building measures?

Peace

[repulsewarrior]

it's more like fifty years, but who is counting...

i think it is the emotional aspect of the past that we must let go of; the pain. it makes us think of 'our' cause as opposed to the cause. we have to fight injustice, and intolerance, rather than the injustice or the intolerance of a 'greek' person or a 'turkish' person. we have to step back from our individual identity, to stand as a human being first, and to act accordingly, without compromise at any cost for the betterment of this whole, rather than the all we see in ourselves as a one or the other.

good stuff AQ_M those would be great measures.

[erolz]

AQMessiah wrote: I'd reopen Varosha,

I support the unilateral and unconditional return of Varosha (to Republic of Cyprus control) and have argued the case for such here and elsewhere.

AQMessiah wrote: lift the embargo,

There is no one single 'embargo'. The north and the people who live there suffer from a number of effects of isolation from the international community. These isolations are a result of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus not be recognised internationally as a state in it's own right and are exasperated by Greek Cypriot efforts to ensure the maximum effect of this non recognition. So what are you actually suggesting? That the Republic of Cyprus not seek to maintain and maximise the effects of such isolations on those that live in the north? That they do that unilateraly ? That they allow for example direct flights into ercan? Or lobby for the EU to once again accept direct export trade links from the north to the rest of Europe? That they do not seek to block sporting ties made direct with north cypriot bodies and without pre requist consent from a Republic of Cyprus body ? Or cultural ones. Is this the kind of thing you are suggesting ?

AQMessiah wrote:
remove all Greek and Turkish troops. How's that for some confidence building measures?

Now we are in the realm of madness and to be frank dangerous madness at that. Just actually think for a minute what would be the likely result of such without a full and comprehensive solution. The Republic of Cyprus would still consider itself the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots and all of Cyprus. So all the troops go home. And what happens when the legtimate Republic of Cyprus government sends it legitimate police force to evict Turkish Cypriot living in homes that were Greek Cypriot controlled pre 74. What happens then ? How do you think the Turkish Cypriot faced with such eviction would react ? If they resist such and are declared criminals and seditious and enemies of the state what happens then ? How do you think the Turkish Cypriot police of the North of Cyprus , who are illegitimate according to the Republic of Cyprus, would react to attempts by Greek Cypriot police to evict Turkish Cypriot from homes in the North. There would be chaos and new inter communal violence the like of which has not been seen in Cyprus since 74.

Now please do not get me wrong. I am not trying to destroy your hope and optimism and good intentions, but I am trying to bring home to you some hard real world realities. "Send all (foreign) troops home" is a good slogan but it is just that a slogan and nothing more. It does not deal with the causes at the root of the Cyprus problem. In fact if it were achieved without the real work of solving the root problems chaos and inter communal violence would be the result just as it was before. The troops in Cyprus are a symptom of the problem not the cause of it. We can chant slogans till the world become nirvana, but it will not be the chanting of slogans that gets us to nirvana I can guarantee that. It will be hard work and sacrifice and compromise and selflessness that will do that - all of which are vastly harder than chanting slogans, which is why there is much slogan chanting in the world and little nirvana.

Forget the past. OK.

But TODAY we have Turkish Cypriot in the north that have built their lives on land that was Greek Cypriot pre 74 and given up on (in their hearts and minds) lands in the south they owned pre 74. We also have Greek Cypriot who lost their lands after 74 and who want it back TODAY. These are problems we have to solve TODAY. They were created in the past but they exist TODAY. How do we solve these ? How does chanting forget the past help us solve them TODAY ?

We have a Turkish Cypriot community TODAY that FEARS living in a unitary state as a numerical and political minority amongst a larger numerically and politically dominant Greek Cypriot community. The reason why they fear this are rooted in the past but the fear exists TODAY. How do we solve this problem ? How does the slogan 'forget the past' help us solve this problem TODAY.

We have TODAY people from Turkey who since 74 have come to Cyprus to live in the north and have built lives here and had children here and married Cypriots here. They cam in the past but they remain here TODAY. We have TODAY many people who do not want them to be here. How do we solve this problem. How does saying or even doing 'forget the past' make it easier for us to solve this problem TODAY?

AQMessiah wrote: Peace

And peace to you too - sincerely. However I can only continue to drive home my point - which is that saying and even wishing 'peace' to each other is not enough, not nearly enough, to solve our problems. It is a start and a important and necessary one and one that in reality is probably lacking in more Cypriots than it is present, but even if that were not the case it is simply not enough. We need to DO things, as individuals and as communities, unilaterally and bilaterally. We have to DEAL with difficult issues of contention that have exists for 10's of years if not hundreds in some of their forms - not just pretend we can 'forget' these issues.

Now I understand that there are forces that do NOT want change , do not want unification and want permanent division or total capitulation who USE the past to further their agendas. This is not in doubt , but to then go from that reality to a conclusion that therefore the 'past' is the problem and anyone who will not 'forget the past' is part of the problem is both false logic and naivety on a vast scale and what is more potentially dangerous false logic and naivety as far as I am concerned. No we should not be slaves to the past but neither should we or in reality can we simply 'forget' the past We need to use the past just as we need to use the now and the future. Some will try and use these things for objectives we consider harmful and bad but that does not mean we should reject such use ourselves for better objectives.

[murataga]

repulsewarrior wrote: murataga,

not long ago, blacks were swinging from trees.

...we could have said the same thing then, but times have changed.

if you suggest embracing the future, i suggest you look at your motives, because as a human being, it seems that your ethnicity is far more important than the colour of blood.

Trust me: embracing the diversity of the two communities in this island and granting them their fundamental right (which they both so passionately seek) to govern themselves in their own zone in security is the utmost respect and desire for peace for all humans living in Cyprus. I invite you to show the same tolerence and respect for people living on this island rather than trying to force them into something they both do not want and have been refusing for so long.

repulsewarrior wrote:
as for your two blah blah blah, it reveals an ignorance about Cyprus that comes from the indulgent behaviour of someone who prefers to live a lie, than to confront their own fears.

The greatest lie is denying the realities of Cyprus: two people, two languages, two religions, two cultures - but above all, the will of these two people to live with their autonomy. Like it or not, believe it or not, these are the realities of Cyprus which apparently you avoid - but go ahead be my guest. I have said it before, and I will always say it: as long as you deny the facts of Cyprus and the will of the people living in it, you will fail with any scenario which you try to pass as a "solution" - simple.


repulsewarrior wrote:
all the world's religions, and all it's people have crossed here at some time.

No, they haven`t if you are not including tourists.

repulsewarrior wrote:
we are the stewards of a heritage that spans all civilizations,

Perhaps in your imagination, but not scientifically nor historically.

repulsewarrior wrote:
and in your world of mono clonal thinking, nothing is valuable, except your personal here and now.

As a human being I need to have my security and my right to govern myself - thgis is not open for debate or your evaluation. These are the two fundamentals for my existence. What I value is health, peace, wealth, diversity (and respect for it). However, without the first two, I know the latter are either meaningless or temporary.

repulsewarrior wrote:
leave the prattle for others who are without courage.

You live behind a facade of denial of the facts of Cyprus. The likes of your mindset have brought misery upon the people of Cyprus.

repulsewarrior wrote:
we are all the same, what makes you think any differently?

No, we are NOT all the same and there is nothing wrong with being different - it is called diversity, don`t destroy it embrace it. In your logic the whole world should be a single county - no. You forcing everyone to be "one" is the most severe violation of the fundamental human right to self-identify and self-govern in combination with gross intolerence to diversity.

[murataga]

repulsewarrior wrote: ...furthermore, bicommunal does not mean two states,

Given that we have been ejected from the state that we have established, that we have been murdered and ambargoed for refusing to have that state annexed to Greece, we can not be denied the right to determine our own fate and live in security, hence two states is the only solution given the circumstances. The criminal actions of the Greek Cypriot regime are making the status quo more permanent every day.

repulsewarrior wrote:
and no one is suggesting that one community should have the opportunity to dominate the other.

Good, but that is not the only requirement for a just and lasting solution.

repulsewarrior wrote:
i suggest you be less coy with the simplistic propaganda you employ. Say it!, You are a racist because you like things, just the way they are.

No, I am not a racist, which is more than what I can say for you.

And since you have asked: no, I do not like things the way they are - and let me tell you why... Currently my people, the Turkish Cypriots, are suffering from an embargo that has been going on for 44 years (before any Turkish soldier stepped foot on this island and befote the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was established) that includes an import ban even on infant medicine - unless directed over Turkey. We have to live in fear of an aggressive gang the Greek Cypriots have compiled - called the National Guard. We are constantly threatened by a criminal Greek Cypriot regime that sees itself as the "forward defenders of Hellenism" (Papadopoulos 2006 - speech during visit to Greece) and openly declares its primary objective as our "osmosis" and the destruction of our elements of security. We have to witness at every occasion how our rights stolen from us by a criminal Greek Cypriot regime are turned into tools to make us even suffer more in Cyprus. And do you know what by far the worst is? --> We have to apologize and give some more for the Greek Cypriots to say "Ne" to reconciliation in Cyprus. "Coy" enough for you?

[repulsewarrior]

murataga, i allow your points to stand for themselves, as your opinion.

...and i will add that you suffer greatly, it seems.

do you hate Greeks? just/and Greek Cypriots?

...will you tear up everything that is old?

Is your society inclusive, except for "Greeks"? Is your attachment to your 'motherland' complete,
...or, can we expect you to defend this island from any part of it being annexed to any interlocutor?

Are you a true Cypriot? let's be clear, this is a bi-communal forum, after all.

you don't know me murataga, and any horror story from your past, I can match with mine. But that is not the point. If you love this island, it does not matter if you are a turcophone or grecophone.

A Cypriot knows a closeness to the land, it seems that we do not agree on this.

...and Cypriots suffer peace, I need not remind you that the vast majority you fear, 'Greek Cypriots', (since now there are 'Turkish Cypriots'), did not rise up to cheer the coup. And over one third of the population did not deserve this misery, i think in an act of revenge, because twenty years before this was the best idea, from the Cold War parties, rejected by Makarios, creating a Republic and our independance.

You should kiss your Greek Cypriot brethren, and cry, it is they who saved us, if you are Turkish Cypriot, otherwise, today we would be truly, just Turks, or Greeks, no insult intended, on a divided island.

[murataga]

repulsewarrior wrote: murataga, i allow your points to stand for themselves, as your opinion.

You are not in a position to allow or decline anyone anything here - get over yourself.

repulsewarrior wrote:
...and i will add that you suffer greatly, it seems.

The Turkish Cypriots as a whole suffer due to the criminal activities of the Greek Cypriot regime in the South.

repulsewarrior wrote:
do you hate Greeks? just/and Greek Cypriots?

No, I do not hate Greeks or Greek Cypriots. I do hate the the individuals and organizations that launched the offensive against my people and those responsible for the suffering of my people. Unfortunately, you will find that most of them them happen to be comprised of people identifying themselves as Greek Cypriots.

repulsewarrior wrote:
Is your society inclusive, except for "Greeks"? Is your attachment to your 'motherland' complete,
...or, can we expect you to defend this island from any part of it being annexed to any interlocutor?

Our record open for all to see... We have defended this island from getting annexed to Greece against the will of Greek Cypriots who outnumbered us 1 to 4 and we have not joined Turkey for 33 years now when we can the next morning. I believe we have illustrated clearly where we stand in terms of our passions. The question is do you have to courage to acknowledge it?

repulsewarrior wrote:
Are you a true Cypriot? let's be clear, this is a bi-communal forum, after all.

I am a Turkish Cypriot, born and raised in Cyprus.

repulsewarrior wrote:
you don't know me murataga, and any horror story from your past, I can match with mine. But that is not the point. If you love this island, it does not matter if you are a turcophone or grecophone.

A Cypriot knows a closeness to the land, it seems that we do not agree on this.

I am sorry, I do not understand this (from an English language point of view).

repulsewarrior wrote:
...and Cypriots suffer peace, I need not remind you that the vast majority you fear, 'Greek Cypriots', (since now there are 'Turkish Cypriots'), did not rise up to cheer the coup. And over one third of the population did not deserve this misery, i think in an act of revenge,

Typical - the Cyprus problem begins in 1974 for you... No. We were in the enclaves, embargoed, ejected from the government, and refused most of our rights in the 11 years before; and the Greek Cypriot regime had imported the Greek military to carry out their murders since 1963. The offensive was launched against us - the community that resisted to give up their rights, outnumbered 1 to 4, and resisting ENOSIS/Hellenization of Cyprus. The offensive was launched against us before any Turkish troop was on this island (accept those allowed by the Agreements), before any Greek Cypriot made claims about "lost property", before the establishment of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. But these are of course all irrelevant to you, typical...

repulsewarrior wrote:
because twenty years before this was the best idea, from the Cold War parties, rejected by Makarios, creating a Republic and our independance.

You should kiss your Greek Cypriot brethren, and cry, it is they who saved us, if you are Turkish Cypriot, otherwise, today we would be truly, just Turks, or Greeks, no insult intended, on a divided island.

Here is what the elected officials of my "Greek Cypriot brethren" passed in June 26, 1967 in the Greek Cypriot House of Representatives while I was trying to survive in mud and tents with what aid Turkey sent over (appeared on June 27, 1967 Greek Cypriot House of Representatives Journal):

Quote: "Interpreting the age-long aspirations of the Greeks of Cyprus, the House declares that despite any adverse circumstances it will not suspend the struggle being conducted with the support of all Greeks, until this struggle ends in success through the union of the whole and undivided Cyprus with the motherland, without any intermediary stage."

And here is glimpse of what some Greek Cypriots of interest to the conversation have argued when they were holding "offical" positions after the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus:

Tha following are official statements of Mr. Kyprianou released to the public via Greek Cypriot PIO with the corresponding dates:

16 July 1966 Greek Cypriot PIO press release no. 13
Quote: The national leadership, which voices the wishes of all the people, is not prepared to accept any compromise solution adulterating the people’s national restoration. The Cypriot people want union with Greece. The Greek Cypriot people will continue to struggle having as their standard the Greek flag, Greek virtues and ideals.

1 April 1967 Greek Cypriot PIO press release no. 4
Quote: Cyprus is now an independent and sovereign state and, therefore, the struggle for union with Greece is easier and shorter than before.

24 March 1971 Greek Cypriot PIO press release no. 7
Quote: The unity of purpose, and policy existing between and Greece is absolute. The line of policy by the two Governments is one and the same. Neither Cyprus nor Greece can possibly accept solutions that might, sooner or later, be considered by the people and history, and by posterity, as nationally inadmissible compromises…

19 February 1973, from Archbishop Makarios III statement in Le Point
Quote: I have struggles for the union of Cyprus with Greece, and Enosis will always be my deep national aspiration as it is the aspiration of all Greek Cypriots. My national creed has never changed and my career as a national leader has showed no inconsistency or contradiction. I have accepted independence instead of Enosis because certain external conditions and factors have not allowed a free choice.

6 April 1973, from Archbishop Makarios III interview with John Harrison of the London Daily Express:
Quote: "Union of Cyprus with Greece has always been the national aspiration of the Greek Cypriots. This national feeling has deep roots and the Greek Cypriots would favor Enosis under any circumstances. Various factors, however, and mainly the opposition of Turkey do not make Enosis attainable."

[repulsewarrior]

good, you work hard.

but you are dogmatic. take it is an insult, but i say it to many people like you, and once again, it doesn't matter what colour you are.

all your quotes don't impress me, sounds like too much dribble, and when i said over one third that is all of us just like i said from twenty years before, i know those same designs persist as ideas in many minds like yours, as though we are not Cypriots, to use your point of view, a mass of people that belonged to one state or another, never having existed without consequence.

It may be an opinion, filled with facts, but that does not make it the truth.

When you speak to me murataga, i hope you speak for yourself, and not for a people, unless you are talking about all people, as a human being. i take you for what you are, and i hope if you talk to me, we will find some dialog, beyond mantra, maybe even useful in someway. i am here for our betterment, ignorance is ignorance, there is no such thing as an ignorance particular to a people, not "Greek" or "Turk". Ignorance is particular to persons.

Yes, close to the land; have you ever loved a tree?

[stavrizatz]

Al Messiah wrote:
Quote: Accept that we all fucked up and move on already.

You see accepting the past is not forgeting it. Acknowledge the mistakes of your own community is not forgeting it either. We will remember our history as we know it but we can do nothing to change it, therefore the past should stay in the past where it belongs. The past of our island is our heritage. We like it or not, we own it. However saying we cannot change the past, we can certainly change the present leading to a brighter future.

Only by embracing our past we will be able to move foreward.

One last thing, Bob Marley said " a person without the knowledge of his/her past history is like a tree without roots" and I add to that "the deeper the roots, the higher and more beautiful the tree grows"
cheers

[Mete]

AQMessiah wrote:
We've been arguing with each other for the past 30 years. Over what... Who threw the first stone? Is it not obvious how destructive that 20 some years has been for all us Cypriots?

You know what we have been arguing since 1950s? We've been arguing if Greek Cypriots, being 80+ percent of the island can/should impose their will on Turkish Cypriots. According to Greek Cypriots in 1950s, they could, that's why majority of Greek Cypriots supported Enosis and had no problem with lack of Turkish Cypriot support for it. I'd argue that it's still true today because I haven't heard any serious Greek Cypriot political party question why there are no Turkish Cypriots in Republic of Cyprus since 1963.

So let's forget the past as you suggest but the arguments of the past still remain *today* ...that was my point initially.

As for confidence building measures, I support them 100%. I believe that a lot can be done to make the lives of all Cypriots better without a comprehensive solution. Unfortunately, neither the north nor the south seems to have the vision to go for them simply because both sides want to maximize their gains in a future solution so nobody wants to give up anything until then.

So that's why we need a citizens movement on both sides of the island to force politicians to do what we want. This is the solution I have in mind and this is what I'm willing to work for given that there are serious and committed citizens on both sides of the island.

[stavrizatz]

erolz wrote:
Now we are in the realm of madness and to be frank dangerous madness at that. Just actually think for a minute what would be the likely result of such without a full and comprehensive solution. The Republic of Cyprus would still consider itself the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots and all of Cyprus. So all the troops go home. And what happens when the legtimate Republic of Cyprus government sends it legitimate police force to evict Turkish Cypriot living in homes that were Greek Cypriot controlled pre 74. What happens then ? How do you think the Turkish Cypriot faced with such eviction would react ? If they resist such and are declared criminals and seditious and enemies of the state what happens then ? How do you think the Turkish Cypriot police of the North of Cyprus , who are illegitimate according to the Republic of Cyprus, would react to attempts by Greek Cypriot police to evict Turkish Cypriot from homes in the North. There would be chaos and new inter communal violence the like of which has not been seen in Cyprus since 74.

Total demilitarisation will not necessarily result that. I don’t understand why automatically you argue the worst case scenario for Turkish Cypriots! Look at the slogan of this site "the pioneers of peace are those who refuse to take up arms" Personally I believe total demilitarisation will receive the wide respect of the international community which will support Cypriots further in finding a peaceful and viable solution.

Erolz other problems you’ve mentioned are truly problems of TODAY. Problems that have to do with violation of human rights and freedoms of individuals or of communities are problems that we face TODAY however I want to comment on this:

erolz wrote: We have a Turkish Cypriot community TODAY that FEARS living in a unitary state as a numerical and political minority amongst a larger numerically and politically dominant Greek Cypriot community. The reason why they fear this are rooted in the past but the fear exists TODAY. How do we solve this problem ? How does the slogan 'forget the past' help us solve this problem TODAY.

In my opinion fear is not a real problem, it is a perceived problem. Fear can be resolved in the minds of individuals without any change. Fear comes from the stories that we create about possible scenarios. By the way, I don’t deny the fear of no one, and I have fears my self, but I know that those fears are only my limiting stories that justify the way I am being and when I overcome those fears that come from the past, I am able to create.

erolz wrote: Now I understand that there are forces that do NOT want change , do not want unification and want permanent division or total capitulation who USE the past to further their agendas. This is not in doubt , but to then go from that reality to a conclusion that therefore the 'past' is the problem and anyone who will not 'forget the past' is part of the problem is both false logic and naivety on a vast scale and what is more potentially dangerous false logic and naivety as far as I am concerned. No we should not be slaves to the past but neither should we or in reality can we simply 'forget' the past We need to use the past just as we need to use the now and the future. Some will try and use these things for objectives we consider harmful and bad but that does not mean we should reject such use ourselves for better objectives.

Well said Erolz

[stavrizatz]

murataga wrote: to govern themselves in their own zone in security is the utmost respect and desire for peace for all humans living in Cyprus.

That contradicts the ideals of the global peace philosophy. The break up of states along ethnic lines is a regression to the malady of nationalism and separatism, instead of a forward movement in the spirit of the multicultural brotherhood of the peoples of the one humanity of nations.

murataga wrote: The greatest lie is denying the realities of Cyprus: two people, two languages, two religions, two cultures

Do you really call that the REALITY of Cyprus!!! As RW sais, to me it truly reveals ignorance about the reality of Cyprus. Because other minority communities did not have the opportunity to break up into their own territory, it means that they don’t exist.

murataga wrote: As a human being I need to have my security and my right to govern

When you had the opportunity to govern yourself in the government of the Republic of Cyprus, why did you choose to be governed by the Turkish Army Officers who are ruling the North of Cyprus?

murataga wrote: The likes of your mindset have brought misery upon the people of Cyprus.

If all people were like RW, the world was going to be paradise.

[quote/"murataga"]No, we are NOT all the same and there is nothing wrong with being different - it is called diversity, don`t destroy it embrace it. In your logic the whole world should be a single county - no. You forcing everyone to be "one" is the most severe violation of the fundamental human right to self-identify and self-govern in combination with gross intolerence to diversity.[/quote]

Diversity can exist within states and it can exist in Cyprus just like it exists in other countries in the world. A single country with effective local governments and respect for human rights is the vision of global peace philoshophy.

murataga wrote: Given that we have been ejected from the state that we have established, that we have been murdered and ambargoed for refusing to have that state annexed to Greece, we can not be denied the right to determine our own fate and live in security, hence two states is the only solution given the circumstances. The criminal actions of the Greek Cypriot regime are making the status quo more permanent every day.

Now we can all learn the true history of Cyprus:
Greek Cypriots murdered Turkish Cypriots to unite with Greece – sorry, to be annexed by Greece. Maybe you prefer colonized by Greece?

Turkish Cypriots were in danger, maybe danger of potential genocide by the Greek Cypriot bustards?

The criminal actions of Greek Cypriot regime. Republic of Cyprus is a spurious entity isn’t it, the only legal state in Cyprus is Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Or again maybe Cyprus should be handed over to its legal owners the Ottoman Empire , today Turkey.

But clearly Turkish Cypriots cannot live with the evil Greeks therefore either two state solution or one state solution given that the evil Greek are expelled first.

That is the only true history of Cyprus and the current reality. Don’t bother to search for anything new.

By the way if I may add

The Turkish troops came heroically in 1974 to liberate Turkish Cypriots from the true animals “the Greeks”. The heroic troops had to kill and rape women in order to win the horrible enemy of humanity “the Greeks”. A good Greek is only a dead Greek that is why many had to die, so as to become good. But unfortunately not all Greeks died, some are still alive and the make the pure Turkish Cypriots suffer from the embargoes. The pure Turkish Cypriots were forced to get passport and ID cards from the Greek Cypriot regime but that doesn’t mean that the Greek Cypriot regime is legal, it is happening out of necessity.

Last wish 'Death to all Greeks'

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: Total demilitarisation will not necessarily result that. I don’t understand why automatically you argue the worst case scenario for Turkish Cypriots! Look at the slogan of this site "the pioneers of peace are those who refuse to take up arms" Personally I believe total demilitarisation will receive the wide respect of the international community which will support Cypriots further in finding a peaceful and viable solution.

If Turkey was to tomorrow remove it's troops from Cyprus do you REALLY believe the Republic of Cyprus would not seek to exert it's authority over all of Cyprus, as the recognised sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus ? How could it not use it police force to enforce its laws and court rulings already made ? There can be no (peaceful) solution that involves the removal of Turkish troops without a comprehensive solution and to pretend that there can be , to yourself or others is naive in the extreme imo as well as dangerous .

stavrizatz wrote: In my opinion fear is not a real problem, it is a perceived problem. Fear can be resolved in the minds of individuals without any change. Fear comes from the stories that we create about possible scenarios. By the way, I don’t deny the fear of no one, and I have fears my self, but I know that those fears are only my limiting stories that justify the way I am being and when I overcome those fears that come from the past, I am able to create.

Fear can be founded or unfounded. I know you believe Turkish Cypriot fears in this regard are unfounded, just as you believe that the Greek Cypriot community did not try an impose a Greek (not Cypriot) will on the Turkish Cypriot community against their will in the past, with no regard for their wishes or desires on such fundamental issues about their (shared) homeland.

If I stick my hand in a fire and I get burnt I fear to do the same again without some form of protection. I could overcome my 'internal' fear and again stick my hand in the fire with no protection but the probable result is that I will get burnt again and it is not something I am likely to do, even if you tell me that actually the previous time I did not get burnt but have just been convinced by others that I did. Now you believe that I (Turkish Cypriot community) did not get burnt in the past and so all fears of it potentially happening again are just 'limiting stories'. I however do NOT believe this version of the past. You can keep trying to convince me that there is nothing to fear or you can accept that fear and the reason why I have it and the validity of those reasons from my perspective and seek to find a way to overcome those fears. I think the second approach is the better one myself.

[repulsewarrior]

I suggest that both communities have gloves, so
that they can stick their hands in the fire.

Erolz, being a realist, look down the road.

I don't dare mention any neighbours in the region, and the conflicts that they are in.

No Army, not even the Turkish Army can stop the will of those who choose to be fanatics.