www.talkcyprus.org

[repulsewarrior]

really good commentary, thanks stav.

[AQMessiah]

Gabi wrote: ... if both sides seriously think of reunification as the solution to the CyProb, then FORGET the past. Forget 1958, forget 1963, forget 1967, forget 1974, Forget 1983 ... are you not tired of this endless blamegame. Are you not tired and ashamed of poisoning children's brain's with hate. Many of you were not even witnesses of what happened then. Just forget ... see Vietnam, Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, N. Ireland, Germany ... and dont try to find small loopholes to challenge the paradigms that these countries have set ... Just FORGET + Smile

Very refreshing to hear another Cypriot say such words. 90% of this forum is filled with posts of "G-Cypriots did this" and "T-Cypriots did that." If we, the younger generation, don't move on from this tragic time in our history we're doomed to stay in this god forsaken situation forever. Erolz, if you want substance why not create some with these thoughts in mind? You're an intellectual sort of guy, I'm sure you can create something with that noggin of yours.

Just to throw this in there and be honest with you all...I'm 21 years old and I'm absolutely sick and disgusted about the situation we are in. I've spent 3 years following the current events of Cyprus and have realized that we have absolutely nothing to show for it. Forget those 3 years, what about the 30 years that have past? I encourage everyone to watch this movie clip someone sent to me on Facebook. I honestly hope that this will foreshadow reality and people like Erolz, Kifeas and the rest of those who have stopped Cyprus from uniting fade out to be replaced by the younger generation. I'm sorry if I offended but you're all still stuck in the same mindset as when I left this forum months ago.

http://www.peaceatwar.com/film-en/

Peace

[stavrizatz]

The film was actually competing at the shooting reality film festival organised by UNDP. Actually there is another nice film called "Home sweet hope", I am not sure if it is in youtube

[Mete]

Quote:
I honestly hope that this will foreshadow reality and people like Erolz, Kifeas and the rest of those who have stopped Cyprus from uniting fade out to be replaced by the younger generation.

Sorry but you're not being fair to Erol and Kifeas. I wish we could simply forget the past but we have problems TODAY which stem from the past. If you're serious about solving these problems, first you have to understand the roots of these problems, then you have to provide realistic solutions. None of these can be achieved by simply forgetting the past. Nobody here wants to get stuck in the past but you cannot build a future without understanding the past. Otherwise you end up repeating the same mistakes.

[Gabi]

Quote: Nobody here wants to get stuck in the past but you cannot build a future without understanding the past. Otherwise you end up repeating the same mistakes

Mete, Mete ... same old story, same old thinking .... I really wonder, is it something that has to do with our genes??? Balkans, SE Med;, Middle East ... we are all stuck with our pasts, learning about the myths of our glory days, our victorious moments of history and superior standing, and how the rest of the world has plotted against us to undermine what we had to offer humanity ...

I am sure that if you read the history school books of any former Yugoslavian state, or Greece, or Turkey, or the Republic of Cyprus or the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus without knowing which is which, and you concetrate on the chapters that refer to the creation of the contemporary state of the relevenat country, if you delete the names and the toponyms of who is who and where things took place, you will probably end up having the impression that all books refer to the same country .... :shock:

Mete nobody can do the same mistakes. Because these mistakes belong to the past, and the past is HISTORY, and history out of nature does not and cannot repeat itself ...

[Mete]

Gabi wrote:
Mete nobody can do the same mistakes. Because these mistakes belong to the past, and the past is HISTORY, and history out of nature does not and cannot repeat itself ...

Gabi, my point is the following. Even if we forget the past as you suggested, we still have problems today and most of these problems have historical and present roots. Even if we forget these historical roots, we still have these problems with real present roots.

For example, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots do not trust each other due to what happened in 1960s and 1970s. So you suggest we forget 1960s and 1970s but my point is that there are a lot of reasons that fuel the mistrust of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots *today*. Today, Greek Cypriots show no signs of sharing power with Turkish Cypriots. Today, Turkish Cypriots show no signs of returning land to their rightful owners and so on.

Do you see what I'm trying to say? Yes, we won't repeat the exact same mistakes of the past but we still repeat the same mistakes *today*.

My view is that we have to understand the roots of these problems so we can provide realistic solutions to them. I want to use history as one dimension in solving these problems (not the only dimension of course). What's your suggestion for solving these problems of *today*?

[repulsewarrior]

confidence building means we have to start somewhere... to do things together.

...and my suggestion is to look at our past toward the future, an to do something new altogether.

... similarly, if we admit that we made mistakes, we can look into our collective past and find what we rejected in the first place toward this ugly present.

[AQMessiah]

Mete wrote: Quote:
I honestly hope that this will foreshadow reality and people like Erolz, Kifeas and the rest of those who have stopped Cyprus from uniting fade out to be replaced by the younger generation.

Sorry but you're not being fair to Erol and Kifeas. I wish we could simply forget the past but we have problems TODAY which stem from the past. If you're serious about solving these problems, first you have to understand the roots of these problems, then you have to provide realistic solutions. None of these can be achieved by simply forgetting the past. Nobody here wants to get stuck in the past but you cannot build a future without understanding the past. Otherwise you end up repeating the same mistakes.

Mete, 30+ years have passed and nothing has been accomplished. We're all to blame, isn't that enough for you? Or are you trying to pin the Cyprus problem on 1 community. If that's the case you're going to be going in circles for a very long time.
And why am I not being fair to Erolz and Kifeas? Erolz's idea of a United Cyprus relies on the few years that Cypriots we're fighting with each other. Kifeas would like to claim the entire island for himself.
I won't add myself to the problem and if anyone really, truly wants to see Cyprus United again they'll do the same and let go of the past.


Peace

[erolz]

repulsewarrior wrote: confidence building means we have to start somewhere... to do things together.


We tried that RW. The whole cemetery clean up effort was about doing something together despite any differences we had. If you want to be realistic about the situation then look at that effort. We had the likes of Piratis saying it was a bad idea because some time in the future he may have to kill me to take back what was stolen from him and such working together projects would make this harder for him and therefore it is a bad idea. Even ignoring that response as atypical the fact is we got press coverage for the cleanups in both the South and the North and yet I did not manage to get a SINGLE Cypriot to come along and help other than those I knew personally. The simple fact was the greatest support in terms of actually turning up and DOING something , putting in some real WORK and EFFORT was from the expat community in the north. Of course there was some exceptions - like Bananniot who turned up and supported the effort. However we already know if Bananniot were typical we would not be in the mess we are today.

So it's all very well for people to 'lecture' and 'moan' at a distance and accuse me of being 'old school' and part of the problem and unable to forget the past but the facts are is I actually got off my ass and tried to DO SOMETHING and the reality was that most Cypriots who are actually here just did not care enough to get of their asses. In fact I got the distinct impression that many Cypriots on both sides did not want such efforts to succeed or were indifferent to the degree they were not going to put in any effort.

This is REALITY. Fine words on forums will not change this. Moaning that the problem is we will not forget the past will not change this. Accusing those that have made an effort of being the ones that have stopped reunification will not change this. What will change this reality is Cypriots WANTING it to change AND wanting it enough to get of their ASSES and put in some EFFORT.

So AQMessiah and to degree Gabie what have you personally actually DONE to try and build bridges and trust and co operation in Cyprus, that you feel so justified to accuse me I wonder ?

[repulsewarrior]

AQ_M what about my proposals. I think you are aware of them. there is a topic where i spell it out under solutions, and everywhere else.

Beside the vacum of no comments, ihave been called a dreamer, an idealist, and the one that i like best, a lonely cowboy. is it not based on a principal that is above the Nationalism of Greeks and Turks?
is it not sustainable, does it guarentee our respect for each other by allowing the Republic to remain above collective desires, sovereign for a State, where it defends Individual Rights, and is our representative as members of the broader community of Man, as Cypriots, this island's dwellers, where we live as a united people, because each community will have the resposibility to recognise the minorities amongst them, and to provide for their distinctive needs.

[repulsewarrior]

Erolz,your point is well taken.

I find you stuffy at times, it's true. But i know where your heart is, and i have alot of respect for you. Not everyone is as capable. eg this forum which you set up. be happy, change takes time.
be happy that in your make up you can effect change. don't give up. action, not words have great effects, even if they cannot be measured, remember, a butterfly, flapping those little delicate wings, changes the weather, we learned that from the space program, can anyone have predicted that?.

[AQMessiah]

You're right erolz, I have not done my part as Cypriot to build those bridges. Please keep in mind though that I live in the US and coming across another Cypriot (especially a T-Cypriot) is a rarity for me.

What I would like to do is with cooperation with Northern Cyprus and a fellow T-Cypriot archaeologist, begin archaeological excavations and preservations of the ancient sites up north that have been relatively neglected so far.
Then again repulsewarrior put it best, "action, not words have great effects."

RW, I believe I did read that post, I'll have to look it over and post my comments on that thread. If it is the one I am thinking of I full-heartedly believe you are headed in the right direction.


Peace

[murataga]

AQMessiah wrote: Mete wrote: Quote:
I honestly hope that this will foreshadow reality and people like Erolz, Kifeas and the rest of those who have stopped Cyprus from uniting fade out to be replaced by the younger generation.

Sorry but you're not being fair to Erol and Kifeas. I wish we could simply forget the past but we have problems TODAY which stem from the past. If you're serious about solving these problems, first you have to understand the roots of these problems, then you have to provide realistic solutions. None of these can be achieved by simply forgetting the past. Nobody here wants to get stuck in the past but you cannot build a future without understanding the past. Otherwise you end up repeating the same mistakes.

Mete, 30+ years have passed and nothing has been accomplished. We're all to blame, isn't that enough for you? Or are you trying to pin the Cyprus problem on 1 community. If that's the case you're going to be going in circles for a very long time.
And why am I not being fair to Erolz and Kifeas? Erolz's idea of a United Cyprus relies on the few years that Cypriots we're fighting with each other. Kifeas would like to claim the entire island for himself.
I won't add myself to the problem and if anyone really, truly wants to see Cyprus United again they'll do the same and let go of the past.


Peace

There are two people, two languages, two religions and two cultures in Cyprus that can live as partners but not as overlapping entities. If "unification" is forcefully integrating them with a political template that allows ambitions of one over the other - I assure you that it will fail. This is not skepticism, this is not a wish, this is a simple reality of Cyprus and our times. Accept and embrace the differences of these two people , let them govern themselves (bi-communal) in their own seperate zones (bi-zonal) with a constitional framework that guarantees their autonomy and security from the political ambitions of the other. Than we will have a unified Cyprus in a true sense and all will prosper.

[repulsewarrior]

murataga,

not long ago, blacks were swinging from trees.

...we could have said the same thing then, but times have changed.

if you suggest embracing the future, i suggest you look at your motives, because as a human being, it seems that your ethnicity is far more important than the colour of blood.

as for your two blah blah blah, it reveals an ignorance about Cyprus that comes from the indulgent behaviour of someone who prefers to live a lie, than to confront their own fears.

all the world's religions, and all it's people have crossed here at some time. we are the stewards of a heritage that spans all civilizations, and in your world of mono clonal thinking, nothing is valuable, except your personal here and now. leave the prattle for others who are without courage.

we are all the same, what makes you think any differently?

[repulsewarrior]

...furthermore, bicommunal does not mean two states, and no one is suggesting that one community should have the opportunity to dominate the other.

i suggest you be less coy with the simplistic propaganda you employ. Say it!, You are a racist because you like things, just the way they are.