www.talkcyprus.org

[Get Real!]

Torturing Cypriot History
Hostile Environment of Yesteryear Still Remembered

by Matthew J. Stowell

As an American with no Cypriot or Greek ancestry, I understand how Cyprus' complex and, to most Americans, obscure past can make many easy prey to the disinformation fed our press by the Turkish government.

A common propaganda bite used by the Turkish state to legitimize its 1974 invasion of Cyprus is that "The Greek Cypriots then unleashed a campaign of extermination and eviction that killed or wounded thousands and drove a frightening percentage of Turkish Cypriots into besieged enclaves.." (Insight Magazine, "Fences Might Be the Right Thing for Multiethnic Nation of Cyprus", Ahmet Erdengiz, Feb. 7).

This claim has been refuted by findings of impartial sources such as the UN Secretary General's report No. S/5950, para. 142 which confirms that as a result of the brief but turbulent period of hostilities between Greek and Turkish-Cypriot extremists from December 21, 1963 to June 8, 1964, a total of 43 Greek Cypriots and 232 Turkish Cypriots are missing and presumed dead. Clearly, this was no "campaign of extermination".

Moreover, these deaths were a direct result of Britain's documented policy of arming Turkish separatists and encouraging Greco-Turkish conflict to facilitate its control over Cyprus.

While extremists of both communities are to blame for intercommunal violence, fueled by British attempts to prevent this overwhelmingly Greek island-nation from achieving its self-determination, history is clear that Turkish extremists initiated the cycle of violence that claimed victims on both sides.

In June of 1958, a bomb explosion outside the information office of the Turkish Consulate-- later shown to have been planted by Turkish extremists (the "TMT")--set off the first intercommunal clashes on Cyprus. As noted by British author Christopher Hitchens in his highly acclaimed work on Cyprus, Hostage to History, the self-proclaimed president of Cyprus' occupation regime, Rauf Denktash, admitted in a 1984 interview that it was a Turkish Cypriot friend who planted the bomb. As a result, "Turkish Cypriots promptly burned out a neighboring district of Greek shops and homes, in what was to be the first Greek-Turkish physical confrontation on the island. A curfew was imposed, and Greek guerrillas [were] blamed [by British authorities] for the bomb as they were for everything else."

Next the British released from jail eight Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters, forcing them to walk through the Turkish village of Guenyeli, where they were quickly set upon and murdered. Thus began two months of violence by extremists on both sides, killing 56 Greeks and 53 Turks. Tellingly, the British arrested 2,000 Greeks, but only 60 Turks.

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority. In a single week over 600 families, two-thirds of them Greek, left their homes, and many Turks who left Greek areas did so under intense pressure from Turkish separatists.

Turkish Cypriots who favored compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence. Turks caught smoking Greek cigarettes or visiting Greek shops were beaten, and Turkish gangs forced some Turkish Cypriots to resign from Greek Cypriot trade unions. In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT. Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia. "Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created. However, this so-called `first phase' of the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey only partly succeeded, since well over half of its brethren refused to obey instructions to abandon their homes for the predetermined enclaves" (The Making of Modern Cyprus, Panteli). On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

This forced population transfer continues in occupied Cyprus today. Since 1974, Turkey has relocated over 125,000 mainland Turks to northern Cyprus. In this clearly illegal, Soviet-style effort to alter the demographics of northern Cyprus, one which the UN has condemned, Turkey has displaced not only the few remaining Greek Cypriots but also Turkish Cypriots, who are often treated as second-class citizens and denied the rights and privileges of the alien settlers from Turkey.

As a result, a diminishing number of Cyprus' indigenous Turks remain. Turkey has made it easy for them to obtain visas to emigrate, and they have left en masse, mostly for Britain and Turkey as well as other Mideast countries; some have even escaped through the Green Line and returned to the Greek south.

Apologists for Turkey's invasion disingenuously omit the imperative fact that it is the Greek Cypriot community that bore the overwhelming brunt of violence on Cyprus. As a result of Turkey's 1974 invasion, fittingly codenamed "Operation Attila", Turkish troops perpetrated more than 6,000 killings, widespread rape, torture, the systematic obliteration of cultural property including the destruction of churches, and the ethnic cleansing of 200,000 Greek Cypriots--making them refugees in their own country and bringing twenty-six years of heartbreak for the families of more than 1,500 missing persons.

Placing Turkey's invasion of neighboring Cyprus in a contemporary context, four times as many Greek Cypriots were killed by Turkish troops as Albanians were killed in Kosovo prior to NATO's intervention--and in one-sixth the time frame. Yet Serbia was bombed back to the Stone Age, while Turkey's occupation of Cyprus continues to enjoy tacit US support.

In numerous applications to the European Human Rights Commission, Turkey was found guilty of widespread violations of human rights in Cyprus. Although the European Court of Human Rights has ordered the Turkish government to compensate Greek Cypriot Titina Loizidou for the loss of her property seized during its invasion, Turkey remains the only member of the 40-nation Council of Europe to refuse compliance with a compensation order from its human rights court -- a breach that could lead to Turkey's expulsion from the Council.

The 1963 constitution forced on the Cypriots by the British in a take-it-or-leave-it standoff--with the alternative being partition--was known as "the most rigid, inflexible, and probably the most complicated in the world" (S.A. DeSmith, The New Commonwealth and Its Constituents). The president, a Greek Cypriot, and the vice president, a Turkish Cypriot, could each veto legislation. Despite comprising only 18% of the population, Turkish Cypriots were granted three of the ten seats in the Council of Ministers and thirty percent of the deputy positions in the House of Representatives. A Turkish Cypriot was to be made minister of defense, foreign affairs and finance. Turkish Cypriots were allotted 30% of the civil service jobs and 40% of the command positions in the Army. Any change to the constitution required a two-thirds majority of representatives from both communities. Even the most rudimentary of governmental functions became impracticable--for example the Turkish Cypriot leadership's voting against income and other taxes had placed the government in danger of bankruptcy. In short, the government was hog-tied; Cyprus' very undoing was written into its own constitution.

Other assertions by the Turkish government, that "President Makarios craved union with Greece and the subjugation of Turkish Cypriots . and proposed amendments to the constitution to achieve these objectives" (Insight Magazine, Feb. 7), are patently false. By the time this ill-conceived marriage of a government and its unworkable constitution was imposed on Cyprus, Makarios was opposed to union with Greece. He sought complete independence for Cyprus and a unified sovereign state that protected the rights of all Cypriots, both Greek and Turkish.

It was precisely because Makarios opposed union with Greece that Greek extremists shelled the presidential palace and twice attempted to assassinate him. The amendments he proposed to the constitution were designed to make the government (which has been described by legal experts as "the first in the world to be denied majority rule by its own constitution") somewhat workable and to reflect a closer approximation of the true ratio of Greeks to Turks in Cyprus. Makarios submitted these proposals to the Vice President, a Turkish Cypriot, who did not respond. Instead, the Turkish government, reflecting its dominant role in separatist efforts, answered for him: Turkey rejected the proposals out of hand and forbade the Turkish Cypriots from even discussing them. Shortly thereafter, the Turkish Cypriots abandoned the government completely.

Turkey's 1974 assault on Cyprus is commonly referred to by many in the media as a "landing", a "dispatch of troops" or as anything other than what it was: a brutal invasion. Turkey also misleadingly argues that the invasion was authorized by the Treaty of Guarantee. The Treaty of Guarantee provided that one of the guarantor powers (England, Greece or Turkey) could intervene in an emergency but only in order to restore the country to its original (unified) state, and certainly not to partition, ethnically cleanse or occupy it. And under the U.S.-Turkey Agreement of July 1947, American consent was required for the use of military force by Turkey because virtually all of Turkey's military equipment, weapons, tanks and fighter jets, was supplied by the U.S. This consent was never given. On the very day of the invasion, July 20, 1974, the United Nations Security Council condemned Turkey for its aggression, demanding that Turkey withdraw all troops and allow the displaced Greek Cypriots to return to their confiscated homes.

There have been at least three further UN resolutions since 1974 demanding the same, but Turkey has ignored them all. This is why the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus," the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, is not recognized by any country in the world except for Turkey and has no legitimate international standing.

The continuing insistence on partition by Turkey, using the protection of the Turkish-Cypriot community as a pretext, is merely part of Turkey's long-held expansionist plans for the island. According to Professor John L. Scherer, in Blocking the Sun: The Cyprus Conflict, "Since the 1950s, [Turkey's] plan had been to turn northern Cyprus into a Turkish-run province. Ankara needed an excuse to intervene, and that was provided by George Grivas and EOKA fighters. If there had been no EOKA, however, the Turks and Turkish Cypriots would have found another pretext. They would have planted their own bombs in Turkish-Cypriot areas and blamed the Greek Cypriots in order to justify the Turkish invasion."

Attempts are also made to minimize the 80% Greek majority's cultural and historical claim to the island through assertions like: "Turkish and Greek Cypriots occupied the island for centuries under a succession of sovereigns before the Republic of Cyprus was established in 1960" (Insight Magazine, Feb. 7).

Because of its geo-strategic position in the Mediterranean and the bounty of its natural resources, Cyprus has been invaded and intermittently ruled over by many: Phoenicians, Assyrians, Persians, Romans, English, Lusignans, Genoese, Marmelukes, Venetians, Ottomans, and again the English. The Ottomans invaded in 1571 and controlled Cyprus for three hundred years (its longest period of cultural stagnation), but through all of its decidedly civilized history it has remained a Greek nation in language, architecture, art, music, culture and spirit.

As noted by Christopher Hitchens in Hostage to History, "the complexity and variety of Cypriot history cannot efface, any more than could its numerous owners and rulers, one striking fact. The island has been, since the Bronze Age, unmistakably Greek." Out of 7,000 years of history, the Turks have been in Cyprus a mere 300 years. Based on this and an 18% minority, Turkey's military establishment, with a seemingly truncated memory, believes that Cyprus should be part of Turkey.

Most troubling for the future of Cyprus is the apartheid-like creed, parroted by some journalists covering the issue, that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots will never be able to live in harmony (although they did so for three hundred years), therefore let's maintain the Attila Line that has been imposed on both communities by the Turkish military and forget about finding a solution. It is no accident that this is identical to the argument used by Turkish extremists in the 1950s to promote the idea of partition-one separate state for Turkish Cypriots, another for Greeks.

It is this very separatist objective-engineered by Turkey's ruling military establishment to achieve its goal of taksim, or the partition of Cyprus (and further exacerbated by Britain, America and the Greek junta's disastrous intrigues in Cyprus)-that initiated the cycle of violence by extremists of both communities in 1963 after centuries of peaceful coexistence.

While Turkey has refused to allow Greek Cypriot refugees to return to their homes in the occupied north, the Cypriot Government has kept Turkish-Cypriot homes in trust for them in the hope that they will one day return when Cyprus is united.

Situated in the UN-controlled buffer-zone, Pyla serves as an example of what can be achieved when the divisive effect of Turkey's occupation regime is removed. It is one of the few villages on the island where Greek and Turkish Cypriots still live together peacefully as they had done for centuries.

A recent mobilization by Turkish Cypriots to find a blood donor for a 6-year-old Greek Cypriot boy with leukemia further underscores the speciousness of the myth, propagated for the very purpose of keeping Cyprus divided, that both communities are somehow inherently incapable of living together.

Another disinformation bite promoted by the Turkish government and its spindoctors here is that the Turkish-occupied part of the island functions as a democracy.

As confirmed by the State Department's most recent Human Rights Report and by independent human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, Turkey is among the worst human rights violators on earth, where torture and extra-judicial killings remain a part of its political landscape. For the fifth consecutive year the Turkish state has led the world in imprisoned journalists ahead of China and Syria, and has recently admitted to using death squads to kill as many as 14,000 people since the 1980's.

As the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is in reality a puppet administration that answers directly to the Turkish state, the same authoritarian repression that afflicts Turkey also pervades occupied Cyprus. Turkish Cypriots critical of Denktash's occupation regime have asked that their identities be kept confidential, as one economics professor did, for example, when interviewed by the BBC ("the fact that she didn't want to be identified was significant", BBC News, 9/1/9.

The assassination of prominent Turkish Cypriot journalist Kutlu Adali in 1996 is instructive--his assassination is widely attributed to extremists working on behalf of the Turkish state. According to Professor Claire Palley, a British constitutional law expert, Adali was murdered six days after the European Human Rights Commission declared Cyprus' application against Turkey admissible and "after it became obvious he would have been a witness" in the case. Adali's writings had been extensively quoted in the application, and Palley stated that Adali "proved Turkey's colonisation of Cyprus . . . [and its] compelling Turkish Cypriots to emigrate"

Anyone who wants to believe that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a democracy will soon be disappointed upon visiting occupied Cyprus, and taking note of the square-helmeted, goose-stepping soldiers wielding machine guns on every corner. Cross the Green Line in Nicosia into the Turkish sector and try to photograph any building or videotape any street scene and you will soon find yourself camera-less, in jail, or both.

That apologists of the occupation regime are under the misperception that this is how a democracy should function is indeed part of the problem. And, much like the situation with the former Berlin Wall, now there are Turkish Cypriots from the north escaping to the south to return to their old neighborhoods among the Greeks; their homes, as guaranteed by Cypriot law, still waiting for them.

As was recently reported by Gregory Copley of The International Strategic Studies Association in Washington DC, "[t]he Turkish Cypriots' standard of living has declined compared with that of their Greek Cypriot neighbors since 1974. Turkish Cypriots, with 37 percent of the land and the best agricultural and tourist areas of the island, earn only 30 percent of the average wage of the Greek Cypriots."

European Foreign Affairs Commissioner Hans van den Broek protested that the Turkish Cypriot community was being "victimized" and withheld from "a better and more prosperous future" as a result of Turkey's insistence on an occupied and divided Cyprus.

An increasing number of Turkish Cypriots have realized that the future of a prosperous Cyprus is a united one without Turkish troops. Rejecting the hard-line partitionist stand of the occupation regime, in October 1999 an influential bloc of 23 Turkish-Cypriot trade unions and professional organizations appealed directly to visiting U.S. envoy Alfred Moses to work for the reunification of war-divided Cyprus on the basis of UN Security Council resolutions that call for a unified Cyprus and a withdrawal of occupation troops.

The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus's occupation regime has trapped Turkish Cypriots in a political and economic black hole, all the while importing Turks from the depths of Anatolia to wrest control from Cyprus' native Turkish population. As a result, as many as half of all Turkish-Cypriots have fled their own homeland in search of greater economic and political freedom elsewhere.

In conclusion, it should be emphasized that there were extremists on both sides of the Cyprus conflict, while power-brokering by colonial-minded Britain and interventionist violence by junta-era Greece clearly added fuel to the Cypriot powder keg. But insiders know that it was Turkish designs for partition that ultimately caused the breakdown in government and the terrible tragedy of 1974, the repercussions of which all indigenous Cypriots, both Greek and Turk, are still suffering today.

Cyprus is Berlin all over again, with one difference. Rather than taking the side of civilian-controlled governments, pluralistic societies, and democratic values, our own government has instead decided to ratify invasion, occupation, and transnational aggression in order to sustain an alliance of increasingly questionable value.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

[erolz]

Standard Greek Cypriot propaganda presented on the American Hellenic Media Project webist by an associate of that organisation Matthew J. Stowell

So did you have any comment yourself GR, or was this post just part of the general mission of spreading propaganda ?

[Get Real!]

erolz wrote: Standard Greek Cypriot propaganda presented on the American Hellenic Media Project webist by an associate of that organisation Matthew J. Stowell

So did you have any comment yourself GR, or was this post just part of the general mission of spreading propaganda ?
It’s a very neutral and well written article that covers just about everything on the CyProb in the last century.

Please feel free to challenge any portion of it if you think it is NOT FACT but do not opt for the easy way out and dismiss it all as “propaganda” because this type of hardheadedness is what keeps the Turkish Cypriot community down all the time so it’s best to confront problems than dismiss them.

I have lost count how many times Turkish Cypriot representatives have walked out or ignored this or done that, and every time they pay a heavy price so don’t follow that path.

Regards, GR.

[erolz]

Get Real! wrote: It’s a very neutral and well written article that covers just about everything on the CyProb in the last century.

Lol GR. You really are quite the joker are you not, for no sane person, as you appeared to be when we met, could make the ridiculous claim made above.

No mention of enosis, eoka, Akritas plan, Yiorjadis' illegal armed thugs run from the interior ministry. No mention of the UN documented fleeing of up to 30,00 Turkish Cypriot from their homes, or organised planed attacks by Greek Cypriot leadership against Turkish Cypriot post 63 using legal forces and armed militas. No mention of Makarios' attempts to amend the constitution, or his ignoring constitutional court rulings or his refusal to implement aspects of the 60's agreements. No mention of the UN documented attempts in 65 by Turkish Cypriot to return to government and the illegal 'pre conditions' placed on such a return by an all Greek Cypriot leadership.

This then is you idea of a 'neutral' account of the 'last century' that 'covers just about everything'? What a joke !

Get Real! wrote:
Please feel free to challenge any portion of it if you think it is NOT FACT but do not opt for the easy way out and dismiss it all as “propaganda” because this type of hardheadedness is what keeps the Turkish Cypriot community down all the time so it’s best to confront problems than dismiss them.

Not only are the omissions blatant and glaring and entirely one sided the article itself is logically inconsistent and full of inaccuracies.

First the author of seeks to dismiss the clashes between Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities 'brief but turbulent period of hostilities' that occurred between December 21, 1963 to June 8, 1964 and then he goes on to 'prove' the Turkish Cypriot 'started it' by citing an incident in 1958. He also fails to mention that these 'brief but turbulent' clashes were of a scale that the UN made a resolution and placed peacekeepers on the island because of them.

He then claims that these deaths in the period dec 21 63 to June 64 (vastly disproportionally Turkish Cypriot deaths vs Greek Cypriot deaths ,in absolute terms and even more in relative to population size terms)

Quote: Moreover, these deaths were a direct result of Britain's documented policy of arming Turkish separatists and encouraging Greco-Turkish conflict to facilitate its control over Cyprus.

What is he talking about? What documented policy of arming Turkish separatists? Is he talking about the recruiting of Turkish Cypriot policemen PRE 1960 by the British when they were fighting the terrorist Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters (all of which of course he fails to mention AT ALL). The whole claim of a 'direct result' is pure nonsense of the highest order.

Quote: While extremists of both communities are to blame for intercommunal violence, fueled by British attempts to prevent this overwhelmingly Greek island-nation from achieving its self-determination, history is clear that Turkish extremists initiated the cycle of violence that claimed victims on both sides.

Again he blames the intercommunal violence that he limits to 63-64 on the British - yet by this period the British had left. Cyprus was a sovereign independent nation. He also talks of 'extermists' on both sides, yet fails to mention that one of these leading extremists was the Interior minster of the Republic of Cyprus at the time.

He then goes on to 'prove' that the Turkish Cypriot 'started it' (ie an intercommunal violence that he earlier claims was between 63-64) with the 58 bomb incident. This again is classic Greek Cypriot propaganda and just not true. There were all sorts of intercommunal clashes in 56 and 57, many of them well documented in works like Nancy Cranshaw's serious and detailed work on the period as well as elsewhere. There were clashes in Vasilia in 56, where 15 Turkish Cypriot and 2 Greek Cypriot were injured that she describes as the 'first serious intercommunal clash'. Later in 56 she describes the killing of two Turkish Cypriot policemen in Pahos. A clash in Larnaca that left 6 Greek Cypriot and 7 Turkish Cypriot injured and the stopping by (british) security forces of 18 Greek Cypriot armed with iron bars, sticks and stones trying to join the fight. The detailed description of intercommunal clashes all BEFORE the 58 incident goes on and on. It is just untrue propaganda to place the 'start of intercommunal violence' in 58 and on the Turkish Cypriot community as the instigators, which is exactly what your 'neutral' author does.

Quote: Next the British released from jail eight Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters, forcing them to walk through the Turkish village of Guenyeli, where they were quickly set upon and murdered. Thus began two months of violence by extremists on both sides, killing 56 Greeks and 53 Turks. Tellingly, the British arrested 2,000 Greeks, but only 60 Turks.

Of course there is NOT A SINGLE mention of enosis or EOKA, or the fact that Greek Cypriot were waging a terroist campaign of murder and violence against the British and the Turkish Cypriot were not , that has a direct bearing in the number of arrests following this latest (not FIRST) outbreak of violence. Also the same old associating of violence to 'extremists' , yet EOKA and Grivas were working with the documented approval of Makarios.

I could go on and on dissecting this absurd document and showing the historical inaccuracies and omissions but there really is no point GR.

The REAL point here GR is that you try and maintain that is is a NEUTRAL and FULL account of history, when it is CLEARLY far from such. This really is no different from your earlier attempts to pass off a Republic of Cyprus written history as an official UN written one.

For me the REAL issue here is what damage you do to the chances of us as individuals or communities ever finding a way forward when you clearly insist on propagating as 'neutral' accounts those which you MUST KNOW are far from such. How can I ever believe you want anything but 'total victory' for Greek Cypriot and total capitulation from Turkish Cypriot when you (repeatedly) present one sided propaganda based accounts of history, from one sided sources, as 'neutral' ones.

[repulsewarrior]

...at this point i'm supposed to show all of you an excellently written piece of Turkish propaganda... and remind you that we are looking for a way forward.

Thanks, GR for posting it because I applaud the author as well. Thanks Erolz for punching holes in it, because no single piece has been written on these issues which is quintisential.

In either case the facts are there, neither is blameless, both of their leaderships suffer the same denial.

[erolz]

repulsewarrior wrote: Thanks, GR for posting it because I applaud the author as well. Thanks Erolz for punching holes in it, because no single piece has been written on these issues which is quintisential.

In either case the facts are there, neither is blameless, both of their leaderships suffer the same denial.

What worries and depresses me RW is not that our respective leaderships remain wedded to one sided and partial version of history, which though lamentable is not unexpected. What worries me is when individuals like GR, adult and clearly intelligent, remain wedded to them.

In fact I do not think, having met him, that GR really believes these version of history are truly 'neutral' or 'balanced' or that he did not know that the Republic of Cyprus account of history he tried to pass off here as a UN official history was anything other than a Republic of Cyprus written history. What really depresses me , more than the thought that he believes these one side propaganda accounts as objective truth (which I think he is too intelligent to actually do) is the idea than knowing they are one sided and bias he still CHOSES to present them here as otherwise. Thar out respective leaderships should engage in such fruitless and pointless 'games' that will never get us anywhere is frustrating but it is down right depressing when apparently intelligent private individuals chose to do the same :(

[Mete]

erolz wrote:
Thar out respective leaderships should engage in such fruitless and pointless 'games' that will never get us anywhere is frustrating but it is down right depressing when apparently intelligent private individuals chose to do the same

Politicians represent people, Erol. If Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots did not put up with and/or participated in any fruitless and pointless games then there wouldn't be politicians on either side trying such tactics. But look what's happening with Ledra Street. Both sides are blaming each other, people on both sides don't really question the real reasons and hence you have a wall in the middle of Nicosia waiting to be opened since 2003.

[murataga]

erolz wrote: repulsewarrior wrote: Thanks, GR for posting it because I applaud the author as well. Thanks Erolz for punching holes in it, because no single piece has been written on these issues which is quintisential.

In either case the facts are there, neither is blameless, both of their leaderships suffer the same denial.

What worries and depresses me RW is not that our respective leaderships remain wedded to one sided and partial version of history, which though lamentable is not unexpected. What worries me is when individuals like GR, adult and clearly intelligent, remain wedded to them.

In fact I do not think, having met him, that GR really believes these version of history are truly 'neutral' or 'balanced' or that he did not know that the Republic of Cyprus account of history he tried to pass off here as a UN official history was anything other than a Republic of Cyprus written history. What really depresses me , more than the thought that he believes these one side propaganda accounts as objective truth (which I think he is too intelligent to actually do) is the idea than knowing they are one sided and bias he still CHOSES to present them here as otherwise. Thar out respective leaderships should engage in such fruitless and pointless 'games' that will never get us anywhere is frustrating but it is down right depressing when apparently intelligent private individuals chose to do the same :(

Many argue that Adolf Hitler was a person of high intelligence quantity. It is for what purpose you use the tools in your posession, be it intelligence, wealth, logistics or so forth, that shows your character and integrity. Of course he knew the document was one-sided, but he has other priorities than to acknowledge that it is. Those priorities include satisfying his ambitions shaped by the racist teachings implanted in his brain during his upbringing. He has an agenda to destroy/neutralize the rights of the Turkish Cypriot element of this island. Claiming such a perverted article to be neutral is just a glimpse of how prepared the people of his mindset are to promote their criminal agenda. God knows how far he`ll go if he has access to other means; for we only know how far his kind went only a few decades ago.

[murataga]

Mete wrote: erolz wrote:
Thar out respective leaderships should engage in such fruitless and pointless 'games' that will never get us anywhere is frustrating but it is down right depressing when apparently intelligent private individuals chose to do the same

Politicians represent people, Erol. If Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots did not put up with and/or participated in any fruitless and pointless games then there wouldn't be politicians on either side trying such tactics. But look what's happening with Ledra Street. Both sides are blaming each other, people on both sides don't really question the real reasons and hence you have a wall in the middle of Nicosia waiting to be opened since 2003.

This might be an oversimplified statement. I think what is going on there is far more important than providing access through a stupid gate. But I`d be more than happy to read about your perspective on it as it seems you know and have a lot to say about what is going on there.

[Mete]

murataga wrote:
This might be an oversimplified statement. I think what is going on there is far more important than providing access through a stupid gate. But I`d be more than happy to read about your perspective on it as it seems you know and have a lot to say about what is going on there.

I don't have any inside knowledge. All I know is that both sides claim that they want to open the Ledra Street every day but the gate is still closed. Both sides keep blaming each other as usual. Why don't you enlighten us if you have more information?

[murataga]

Mete wrote: murataga wrote:
This might be an oversimplified statement. I think what is going on there is far more important than providing access through a stupid gate. But I`d be more than happy to read about your perspective on it as it seems you know and have a lot to say about what is going on there.

I don't have any inside knowledge. All I know is that both sides claim that they want to open the Ledra Street every day but the gate is still closed. Both sides keep blaming each other as usual. Why don't you enlighten us if you have more information?

All I`m saying is that you are kind of putting the victim and the agressor on the same scale in the name of being "just". Our ejection from the government of Republic of Cyprus, the attacks launched upon us, our siege in the enclaves and 44 years of ambargo for refusing ENOSIS and to give up our rights is not Turkish Cypriots "putting up with and/or participating in any fruitless and pointless games ". I refuse to accept this kind of moral equivalence being assigned with the criminal regime of the other community who has brought these upon us. Suffice to say that the Ledra street issue is just another front in this ugly conflict and it is not simply about your every-day domestic politics mud slinging. Especially given the difficulties the Turkish Cypriots have endured to make sure the other side understands that we are not simply going to hand over our rights to self-administration, security and autonomy in Cyprus.

[Mete]

murataga wrote:
All I`m saying is that you are kind of putting the victim and the agressor on the same scale in the name of being "just". Our ejection from the government of Republic of Cyprus, the attacks launched upon us, our siege in the enclaves and 44 years of ambargo for refusing ENOSIS and to give up our rights is not Turkish Cypriots "putting up with and/or participating in any fruitless and pointless games ". I refuse to accept this kind of moral equivalence being assigned with the criminal regime of the other community who has brought these upon us.

See, this one-sided view is the problem in Cyprus. I'm not saying you're wrong but at the same time, you cannot ignore that we are not angels either. So, yes, we were thrown out of the Republic of Cyprus in 1963 but we eagerly set up our own administration right after without trying hard enough to make things work. Yes, we were attacked in 1963, 1967 and ultimately 1974 but we did also attack and kill. Yes, many of us lived in ghettos and we became refugees but 1/3 of Greek Cypriots became refugees in the north due to 1974.

The point is, both sides suffered in Cyprus and I don't see a victim vs. an aggressor in Cyprus. I see stupid short-sighted politicians, not being able to see in front of their noses making wrong decisions and as a result the ordinary people of Cyprus suffer. This is how it's been and it is today. Sorry I cannot ignore the suffering of the other side just because my community suffered.
murataga wrote:
Suffice to say that the Ledra street issue is just another front in this ugly conflict and it is not simply about mud slinging. Especially given the difficulties the Turkish Cypriots have endured to make sure the other side understands that we are not simply going to hand over our rights to self-administration, security and autonomy in Cyprus.

This is why nothing is solved in Cyprus after 40+ years. Many people think that we have to solve the biggest political problems before we can solve smaller problems like the Ledra Street gate. I think the other way around. I think small problems can be solved without getting into bigger issues to make people's lives better. Through these small improvements, people can come to the realization that things can be normal. So, Ledra Street is simply about mud slinging.

We're in the year of 2007. The world is changing so rapidly, countries are getting ever connected and we're still arguing about how to knock down a stupid wall.

[murataga]

Mete wrote: murataga wrote:
All I`m saying is that you are kind of putting the victim and the agressor on the same scale in the name of being "just". Our ejection from the government of Republic of Cyprus, the attacks launched upon us, our siege in the enclaves and 44 years of ambargo for refusing ENOSIS and to give up our rights is not Turkish Cypriots "putting up with and/or participating in any fruitless and pointless games ". I refuse to accept this kind of moral equivalence being assigned with the criminal regime of the other community who has brought these upon us.

See, this one-sided view is the problem in Cyprus. I'm not saying you're wrong but at the same time, you cannot ignore that we are not angels either. So, yes, we were thrown out of the Republic of Cyprus in 1963 but we eagerly set up our own administration right after without trying hard enough to make things work. Yes, we were attacked in 1963, 1967 and ultimately 1974 but we did also attack and kill. Yes, many of us lived in ghettos and we became refugees but 1/3 of Greek Cypriots became refugees in the north due to 1974.

And I think a total neglect on the sequence of events and judging based on the outcome is ignorant. Would I be equally to blame for if some one attacked me and I defended myself? You have above very elaborately explained how things happened. You think we are equally wrong becuase our administration took action in response to being ejected. The fact that the condition was imposed upon us and before what you think we have done wrongly is irrelevant in your logic. We did not initiate in 1963; we were attacked. Did we respond? Absolutely. Does that make us the same in sharing the blame?

Mete wrote:
The point is, both sides suffered in Cyprus and I don't see a victim vs. an aggressor in Cyprus. I see stupid short-sighted politicians, not being able to see in front of their noses making wrong decisions and as a result the ordinary people of Cyprus suffer. This is how it's been and it is today.

I disagree. The point is that the other side launched an offensive where they outnumbered us 1 to 4 and we resisted the best we could. The out come is that both sides suffered. But are we to be blamed for defending ourselves and assigned moral equivalence to those who attacked us?

Mete wrote: Sorry I cannot ignore the suffering of the other side just because my community suffered.

No one is asking you to and I do not either. However, I will refuse to be put on the same bench for defending myself with a gun against the one who attacked me with a gun, simple.


Mete wrote: murataga wrote:
Suffice to say that the Ledra street issue is just another front in this ugly conflict and it is not simply about mud slinging. Especially given the difficulties the Turkish Cypriots have endured to make sure the other side understands that we are not simply going to hand over our rights to self-administration, security and autonomy in Cyprus.

This is why nothing is solved in Cyprus after 40+ years. Many people think that we have to solve the biggest political problems before we can solve smaller problems like the Ledra Street gate. I think the other way around. I think small problems can be solved without getting into bigger issues to make people's lives better. Through these small improvements, people can come to the realization that things can be normal. So, Ledra Street is simply about mud slinging.

I disagree again. There were no "small problems" and Ledra was open to all until 1963. It was the unresolved "bigger issues" that made the ship tilt. Without solving the greater conflict and making sure the other side ackowldges our rights, you will only guarantee to relive the misery at one time or another in the future.

Mete wrote:
We're in the year of 2007. The world is changing so rapidly, countries are getting ever connected and we're still arguing about how to knock down a stupid wall.

As I have elaborated, the issue is a little more complicated than just a stupid wall access.

[Mete]

murataga wrote:
No one is asking you to and I do not either. However, I will refuse to be put on the same bench for defending myself with a gun against the one who attacked me with a gun, simple.

I can understand your defense argument from 1950s all the way to 1974 (although it's not that clear cut in there as well but let's forget that for now). However, what happened in 1974 has nothing to do with defense. Please don't deny this. I understand that some lunatics in the Greek Cypriot community organized a coup in 1974 and I also understand the need for Turkey's response but we could have defended ourselves without all the mess caused in 1974. Whether you acknowledge or not, 1/3 of Greek Cypriots were made refugees, thousands of people died and still missing today. Ordinary people did not have to suffer because of political problems. Not only that, we grabbed the lands of Greek Cypriots, distributed among ourselves and as if that wasn't enough, we imported people from Turkey to join in the looting. Now, be honest with me and tell me how is this defending ourselves? This is clear attack in my eyes.

So I agree with you that maybe it wasn't easy to return back to Republic of Cyprus in 1960s, maybe that's why we had to distance ourselves and live in ghettos. I haven't lived through those days so I can't tell but was it necessary to make people refugees in order to defend ourselves in the north? Is it necessary today to deny these people their human rights so we can "defend" ourselves? I don't think so but explain if you think otherwise.

murataga wrote:
I disagree again. There were no "small problems" and Ledra was open to all until 1963. It was the unresolved "bigger issues" that made the ship tilt. Without solving the greater conflict and making sure the other side ackowldges our rights, you will only guarantee to relive the misery at one time or another in the future.

I still don't get your point. Why do we need to solve the Cyprus problem for the Ledra Street to open? Other checkpoints have been open since 2003 without solving the Cyprus problem. Did they do any harm to us? Did they make us weaker? Why do we have to solve everything all at once when we can solve smaller problems like the Ledra Street one at a time and make a difference in people's lives TODAY rather than 20 years down the road? What's so bad about this?
murataga wrote:
As I have elaborated, the issue is a little more complicated than just a stupid wall access.

Yes. Cyprus problem is very complicated with lots of twists and turns. Nobody denies this. What I'm saying is that we don't have to solve the Cyprus problem in order to open the Ledra Street crossing, or in order to start building trust between the two communities. What's so wrong with this approach?

[Evagoras]

murataga TMT thugs have attacked many times against Greek Cypriot.like their attack in 64 in paphos market against unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians. Turkish Cypriot went to the enclaves because of Greek Cypriot attacks and the fear from Greek Cypriot attacks but it was TMT thugs that were murdering Turkish Cypriot just because they tried to abandon the enclaves and return back to their homes in Republic of Cyprus controled areas.you kept your own people in the enclaves for taksim and you ethnic clean 200.000 Greek Cypriot for taksim and then you have the nerve to pretend the poor innocent victim.