www.talkcyprus.org

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: Erolz, perhaps osmosis is not the right world but I only hear from Turkish Cypriots who say "all Greek Cypriots want is osmosis" and when I asked what is osmosis, they told me it is when two people mixed together to become one! And I thought if that is osmosis then what is the problem?

Stav what is feared is the 'mixing' together results in there simply being a Greek Cypriot entity left and no Turkish Cypriot. If there was a certainty that it would result in a 'mixing' that resulted in a new entity that was different from either of the ingredients that retain a discernible flavor of both then the fear would be low. However any chef will tell that when you mix 80% of one strong flavored ingredient with 20% of another ingredient then you risk loosing all the flavor of that ingredient and end up with a dish that is in essence no different from one that is 100% the other ingredient.

This is the fear and it one that it is easy for you to dismiss or not understand because it is a risk that you simply do not face in such a mixing process.

stavrizatz wrote:
The current Republic of Cyprus is making enormous efforts to allow the multicultural character of the island prevail but our ethnic problem makes it difficult.

If it is making 'enormous efforts' then they are not apparent to me.

stavrizatz wrote:
eg Turkish Cypriots being allowed to elect be elected when they live and pay their their taxes to an illegal regime, or Turkish Cypriots claiming their properties when they allready occupy Greek Cypriot properties in the North.

Not only can Turkish Cypriot that live in the north not vote in the Republic of Cyprus or start the long and expensive legal process of regaining their property from the 'guardian' board, until very recently even those Turkish Cypriot that lived in the South could not vote and that they can do so now is only the result of a long and expensive legal battle and not efforts on the part of Republic of Cyprus government to include them.

stavrizatz wrote:
... of course when we are talking about osmosis type solution is not a type of solution where one group dominates another but a unitary state that reflects the character of the society.

It is easy to TALK of such a solution , but you have to appreciate that all the risk in this regard in on the Turkish Cypriot community.

stavrizatz wrote: Getting Greek passports doesn't mean that you are forced to become Greek.

I am not Greek and neither am I Turkish. I do not want to have my nationality, and even if my nation exists at all as a nation, decided by a group that defines itself as 'other' than me, which is what enosis meant. I am Cypriot. I want my nationality to be Cypriot and if it is proposed that it will be made something else to this I demand an effective voice as a Cypriot in such a decision

stavrizatz wrote:
I am sure there are many Turks with Greek passport and many Greeks with Turkish passports and that does not make any of them Greek or Turkish.

There are Greek nationals with strong Turkish ethnic routes, but the fact remains their nationality is Greek and they are subject to national laws that are written by Greeks, in Greek that include limits on if they can call their own local clubs Turkish or not.

stavrizatz wrote: In fact it a human right to have multiple identities and to retain your cultural identity while living in another country.

Cyprus is not 'another' country for me. It is MY country (as much as it is yours). I do not want to be view, regarded or have the same status as a 'foreigner' living in 'another' country in MY OWN country.

stavrizatz wrote:
I feel that not accepting enosis or osmosis or a solution that represents so called Greek domination is an excuse to justify partition and the Turkish strategy to Turkify the whole of, or part of Cyprus. That is my general feeling, correct me if I am wrong

I think you are totally wrong in this regard. Whilst I accept there have always been elements within the Turkish Cypriot community that wanted partition, my view is that these elements could never have achieved it or mass support for it from the Turkish Cypriot community without the rabid Greek Cypriot determination to achieve enosis and the means used to try and achieve it and or effective Greek Cypriot political domination of Cyprus by Greek Cypriot leaderships from the 50's onwards.

[repulsewarrior]

murataga wrote: repulsewarrior wrote: if you are old enough to have lived in a "mixed" village you will know that the villagers lived cooperatively, and that they had refined this lifestyle long before Toad Lane. As for the seperate neighbourhoods, i would say that this was common, so too the chances that these villagers having their yards adjoining. also i would like to add that if you love this island as much as i do, there is nothing that keeps us apart except ignorance, because as far as I know all Cypriots of whatever origin have the same basic wants and needs, with the same dignity, and respect for reason and goodwill.

welcome murataga

Firstly, thank you for the welcome.

Secondly, since you have asked, yes I do love Cyprus very much. That is why, in your anology, I want: (1) our "yards" to be side by side but seperate; and (2) me to to have the right to decide what I will do with my "yard" without you dictating it to me because you have more people living in your "house". I want this because we can be friends and partners as long as we respect and embrace our choices as two different communities rather than try to forcefully shape the other`s through any sort of a perverted political system.

Cooperation and friendship as two entities will work; trying to force one to abide by the other`s political will based on the the lethal assumption that we are the same will not.

I would like to add... that "Turks" and "Greeks" are the same, do you mess in your neighbors' yards, then as now, neither messes in each others yards as you put it, Cypriots are civilised people whose past is an example of Human tolerance longer than most, sustaining themselves as this island's dwellers, under the subjugation of one or another interlocutors' plunder and their math, until the end of their isolation with the coming of the Modern Age.

murataga, I hope you will focus your attention on another tact. "Us"and "Them" is old, we need a BBF and my suggestions are clear enough to debate. Bicommunal needs three entities for your idea to work. {[united], [(Us), (Them)]} And I may add that while you can represent yourself as a majority, there will be, in Cyprus, a reciprocal Assembly to be your counterpart, and a Government that is Sovereign overall, in providing service to its citizens in a manner where a minority, or minorities are respected, recognised, and accomadated.

The reconstitution of the State, is necessary. Please help, it is not a "Greek" "Turkish" thing (that is mutually exclusive). It is an act we must commit as people, and for the betterment of Humanity, despite these identities, as Cypriots, in favour of identities in general.

[stavrizatz]

Quote: Stav what is feared is the 'mixing' together results in there simply being a Greek Cypriot entity left and no Turkish Cypriot. If there was a certainty that it would result in a 'mixing' that resulted in a new entity that was different from either of the ingredients that retain a discernible flavor of both then the fear would be low. However any chef will tell that when you mix 80% of one strong flavored ingredient with 20% of another ingredient then you risk loosing all the flavor of that ingredient and end up with a dish that is in essence no different from one that is 100% the other ingredient.

Erolz, I like your analogy but certainly disagree...it happened that I have a passion with cooking/gastronomy, in fact I am in the hospitality industry professionally and I can assure you that the food blended with different ingredients has much richer flavour and ingredients (especially spices) with 20% can give a lot of flavouring to the food. In my multi-cultural Cyprus as I want it to be it will have strong flavours from all the different ingredients that exist in Cyprus to create a rich flavour - the richest of the world!

I know perhaps it sounds too idealistic. I don't want to deny the fears of Turkish Cypriots, sorry if it comes across that way. I believe the fear is that Greek Cypriots will take advantage of as propotionate majority and dominate Turkish Cypriots. But I don't think that will happen, not because Greek Cypriots are saints but because Turkey is too powerful and Greek Cypriots wouldn't even dare again to do the same mistakes as they did in the pre 74 period.

Once you mentioned the fears of the Turkish Cypriot community, I tell you our fears, at least my fear if we continue the way are going. The fear is that the North will become entirely Turkish, the south will be mixed, Greek and Turkish Cypriot, and there will be further claims by Turkey in Cyprus. There could be another invasion this time more deadly with more refugees and an island that will become entirely Turkish.

Quote: Cyprus is not 'another' country for me. It is MY country (as much as it is yours). I do not want to be view, regarded or have the same status as a 'foreigner' living in 'another' country in MY OWN country.

I didn't mean Cyprus is another country for you or me or anyone who choses to be Cypriot as well as Greek, Turkish, Maronite etc. 'Another' I mean other that the motherland. If you chose to be Cypriot other may chose to be Turks of Cyprus, can you tell them " no your not Turkish but your Cypriot" It is their right to be Turks of Cyprus instead of Turkish Cypriots of just Cypriots who speak turkish. I hope I am clear this time.

[Dream_Merchant]

So Osmosis is not good, the opposite is Active Transport. Treaty of Lausanne did that..did it any good? I doubt it.

So either way it is not good? Then we choose the lesser of two evils.

[repulsewarrior]

Osmosis comes from a mechanical aspect which we do not have. it's simple, where is the inventor for the machine?

[Chapfallen]

There is not problem with osmosis and this was going to happen through a-plan or any solution that will allow people to solve their differences and mix in a natural way and not by an immediate cultural and social rape coming from the sky.

Of course this could happen after a long time but eventually in the cultural limitations of the modern world and Europe this was unavoidable.

[Chapfallen]

Basically as a person that I’m not suffering from a religion based introvert “culture”, I supported from the very beginning a working solution (from when I was 16 years old, even if I was nationalist-Hellenist back then, I was believing in osmosis and the superiority of the Greek culture that could win any stupid cultural “war”, with out of course knowing the osmosis word) of any kind, but of course I was living in illusions because I didn’t fully understand that the cultural damage that the Judaism introversion did, transformed the Greek people into brainless apes with no cultural id.

But even after I realize the cultural shit hole we are into I believed what a working solution of any kind can produce through osmosis a multi-cultural uniqueness that could be example for the world and the east-west civilization cultural conflict and even knowing the fact that our people had no real cultural identity, I consider the fact of the lost cultural id as a great opportunity to build on that unique in the modern and cultural free world.

I believed in Klirides, I believed in a solution that a wise person can lead us into, even if I did know what our people are lambs and passive to nationalistic and religion bullshits, I believed what the left people in Cyprus along with the minority of reasonable people that actually have some active mentality could lead us in a solution through a representative democratic way. When Klirides lost the elections from this lunatic i was so pissed of with the stupidity of people and the left winger apes of Akel where this ridiculous situation drive me to bed for a week with high temperature.

But now I do not fucking care because if this is the best they can do, this is what they deserve and this is it.