www.talkcyprus.org

[erolz]

Osmosis is a bad word and a bad analogy imo.

In it's literal meaing it means the movment of solvent from a solution of low concentration of solvent to one of high concentration of solvent accross a barrier that lets some solvent but not solution through.

So in analogy terms what are we saying ? What is the barrier ? What makes one communites 'solution' (culture?) a 'higher concentration' (this actually imples that one culture is stronger than the other if the 'solution' we people (solvents in analogy terms) are disolved in - itself a non constructive idea imo).

So lets be more direct and honest shall we and not use analogies that are not good ones and can easily be interpeted in negative ways.

We should all become less Greek or less Turkish and more generically Cypriot. However osmosis implies only one sides 'moves / changes', the one in a weaker solution concentration (weaker culture?) and the other remains as it is. Can you see why Turkish Cypriot might reject this interpretation of what 'osmosis' is about ?

Is this what you mean by osmosis Stav. That Turkish Cypriot must change / move and Greek Cypriot not ? Because Greek Cypriot culture is the 'higher concentration' one (ie the stronger / better one) ?

How would I, as a Turkish Cypriot, have to behave to be considered to have been a sucsessful subject of 'osmosis'? Would I have to not care if a majority of Cypriots , who just happen to all consider themselves Greek, seek for Cyprus objectives that are essentialy Greek objectives even upto the destruction of Cyprus as a state and nation in preferance to Greece, to have been a suscsessful subject of this 'osmosis' process that you talk off? Is this what you mean by osmosis?

The more I try and think what osmosis might actualy mean in analogy terms the less clear it is to me what it does mean.

So what do you mean by osmosis Stav? What would I / Turkish Cypriot have to do to 'effect it'. What would you / Greek Cypriot have to do (if anything)? Can you explain it to me in these terms ?

[repulsewarrior]

Errol, osmosis is not a bad word. It is natural, therefore for us, the reasoning animal, it is a question of engineering.

You are correct, osmosis is the process of transfer.
there is a barrier over which pass concentrations, per your example. I suggest that in communities over the whole span of the island, that this is possible. being bizonal, you will be walking down a "Turkish" street, or a "Greek" street. And being bicommunal you will know that all its citizens are Cypriots, but that within their State, they identify themselves as Turcophones, or Grecophones (each with a minority(es) they recognise and respect).

What is wrong with a Constitution which provides for this view?

two concentrations of solutions have to mix, not too much, not too little for the organism to stay vital, as well as healthy.

[erolz]

repulsewarrior wrote: Errol, osmosis is not a bad word.

It is not a bad word in itself, it is a bad concept as an analogy.

repulsewarrior wrote:
You are correct, osmosis is the process of transfer.

It is a process of ONE WAY transfer and that is why it is not a useful concept in terms of Cypriot solutions imo. What Cyprus needs is reciprocal action / change / movement from BOTH communities, not change / movement / action by one alone, moving towards the other that remains as it is - and this is what osmosis infers conceptually and why in my view it is the wrong concept to use.

If we are to use osmosis as an analogy then the analogy should be that what individuals in both communities need to do equally is create a strong CYPRIOT (not greek and not turkish) 'solution' into which members of both communities can be 'drawn' into across the semi permeable barrier of their existing cultural divisions. However I do not think that is what most people understand about the use of the concept of osmosis in a Cypriot context - the creation of a NEW, as yet non existing, 'strong solution' that is different from both the exist Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot 'solutions' in which we swim.

In these terms then we see that the problem is not peoples 'resistance' to osmosis, but the failure of Cypriots to create the right Cypriot 'solution' in the first place. The question should not be why do Turkish Cypriot fear osmosis, but why has osmosis not occurred and the answer to that is that we have failed to create a solution / environment into which both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot will be naturally drawn. As a natural process osmosis can not be resisted at all. Either the conditions are such that it happens or they are not. So in Cyprus terms it clearly has not happened and that tells us not about 'resistance' but actually about a failure to create the right conditions for it to occur. That is what we SHOULD be talking about imo.

[repulsewarrior]

indeed.

sweet,erolz

sorry to harp but bizonal and bicommunal is where it's at. you are right it requires "Greeks" to seperate themselves from the Republic of Cyprus as have the Turkish Cypriots. Then, can these elements flow through a barrier in a manner which is fructful, in sustaining their State.

[murataga]

-mikkie2- wrote: Here we go again! Domination by one or the other community. Fear of ones 'culture' being swamped. Turkish this, Greek that.

We are bloody Cypriots for Gods sake and our culture is essentially the same. Its only because of this bloody division that we are being changed to being more Greek or more Turkish. We are being taught to hate eachother even more as time passes.

We are the same and yet we are being split apart.

The same moronic and pathetic arguments keep coming up in these forums.

Cyprus is in a mess and we deserve what we get. Only yesterday, Talat proclaimed that the population of the north would be 500,000 if the settlers and their families were give 'citizenship'. Think about that and see what 'culture' is going to prevail in Cyprus. It won't be the Cypriot culture, thats for sure.

If you want to go there, Greece and Turkey are all Mediterraneans. They have similar food, their physical features look alike, they are both similarly emotional people, they have many similar traditions, they have similar dance figures, and etc... Actually, I will go as far claiming that Greeks are similar to Turks more than they are similar to the people of any EU member country.

Similarity is one thing but forcing that similarity as being one is another. We as Cypriots are not one, never have been and any effort to force us to be one is nothing less than a severe violation of our most fundamental human right. Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have never had intermarriage, never mingled more than they have to, and have never established a single major venture, be it educational, trade or any other purpose. All villages were separate and the so-called "mixed villages" had their Turkish Cypriot neighborhoods and Greek Cypriot neighborhoods. Oh I`m sorry, we did have a partnership establishment once called the Republic of Cyprus... but we all know how that went.

So, yes we are all Cypriots, but that does not make us the same or one, nor does it mean that we are to be ruled by the majority like we are one people. We are Turkish Cypriots and you are Greek Cypriots and the reality is that we are as similar as Spanish are similar to Italians or Greeks are to Turks. This differentiation in cultural aspects is even more pronounced in political identification and aspirations. Any type of settlement in this island shall be based on the will of these two people to live by their own tradition, culture, political interests and self-administration. This does not mean they have to be enemies. On the other hand, forcing the will, legitimacy or rein of one over the other in any form (call it whatever you like) is the guarantee of ethnic clash and bloodshed in Cyprus.

[repulsewarrior]

if you are old enough to have lived in a "mixed" village you will know that the villagers lived cooperatively, and that they had refined this lifestyle long before Toad Lane. As for the seperate neighbourhoods, i would say that this was common, so too the chances that these villagers having their yards adjoining. also i would like to add that if you love this island as much as i do, there is nothing that keeps us apart except ignorance, because as far as I know all Cypriots of whatever origin have the same basic wants and needs, with the same dignity, and respect for reason and goodwill.

welcome murataga

[Kifeas]

murataga wrote: -mikkie2- wrote: Here we go again! Domination by one or the other community. Fear of ones 'culture' being swamped. Turkish this, Greek that.

We are bloody Cypriots for Gods sake and our culture is essentially the same. Its only because of this bloody division that we are being changed to being more Greek or more Turkish. We are being taught to hate eachother even more as time passes.

We are the same and yet we are being split apart.

The same moronic and pathetic arguments keep coming up in these forums.

Cyprus is in a mess and we deserve what we get. Only yesterday, Talat proclaimed that the population of the north would be 500,000 if the settlers and their families were give 'citizenship'. Think about that and see what 'culture' is going to prevail in Cyprus. It won't be the Cypriot culture, thats for sure.

If you want to go there, Greece and Turkey are all Mediterraneans. They have similar food, their physical features look alike, they are both similarly emotional people, they have many similar traditions, they have similar dance figures, and etc... Actually, I will go as far claiming that Greeks are similar to Turks more than they are similar to the people of any EU member country.

Similarity is one thing but forcing that similarity as being one is another. We as Cypriots are not one, never have been and any effort to force us to be one is nothing less than a severe violation of our most fundamental human right. Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have never had intermarriage, never mingled more than they have to, and have never established a single major venture, be it educational, trade or any other purpose. All villages were separate and the so-called "mixed villages" had their Turkish Cypriot neighborhoods and Greek Cypriot neighborhoods. Oh I`m sorry, we did have a partnership establishment once called the Republic of Cyprus... but we all know how that went.

So, yes we are all Cypriots, but that does not make us the same or one, nor does it mean that we are to be ruled by the majority like we are one people. We are Turkish Cypriots and you are Greek Cypriots and the reality is that we are as similar as Spanish are similar to Italians or Greeks are to Turks. This differentiation in cultural aspects is even more pronounced in political identification and aspirations. Any type of settlement in this island shall be based on the will of these two people to live by their own tradition, culture, political interests and self-administration. This does not mean they have to be enemies. On the other hand, forcing the will, legitimacy or rein of one over the other in any form (call it whatever you like) is the guarantee of ethnic clash and bloodshed in Cyprus.

Utter rubbish! Nonesense!

Split Turkey in 2, or even 3 and 4, because the Kurds are not one people as the Turks of Turkey, or because the kemalists have a completely different cultural orientation than the islamists!

Spit the US in 1,000 pieces, because there are 1,000 different ethnic people living on its soil, split Australia, split Bulgaria, split almost every single country on earth, because nearly all of them are made out of various sub-ethnic or cultural groups!

Garbage Murat_Aga, garbage! You always talk rubbish, and you will never change until you die! You are a fanatic pan-touranist, nationalist, neo-ottoman kemalist! "One Turk equals the whole world!" That is what is in your mind all the time, since they poisoned you in the perverted kemalist madras, like your hero Rauf Denktash!

[Kifeas]

Murat_Aga, how many portraits of Mustafa Kemal have got hanging from the walls of your house, with slogans such as " Bir Türk Dünyaya Bedeldir" and “Ne mutlu Türküm diyene,” written below them?

Oh, you are such a joke Murat_Aga!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Listen Murat_Aga! If you want to split Cyprus, here is a formula for you!

Your community is the 18% of the people, with 400 years of history in Cyprus, and the Greek Cypriots the rest, with 3,500 years of history in Cyprus!

400 years divided by 3,500 years, make your history only a fraction of 11% to that of the Greek Cypriots! Now, multiply the 18% of your population with your 11% of your historical and heritage rights in this country, and this will give you only 2% of weighted rights in Cyprus! Go and get your 2% of territory that you are entitled to, and make your own mini-Turkish state only in this little part of Cyprus! And do not give me again the garbage little stories that your Turkish state’s size should be enough to make it economically viable, and all the rest, because I will remind you again that Malta is only 3% of the size of Cyprus, it has no water nor trees or other natural resources other than plenty of “paputsa” cactus; yet it has a population of 400,000 people and an economy almost at par with the Republic of Cyprus and certainly much higher than your current “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” economy!

Since you want to split Cyprus because you think you are a different people, get your 2% and shut up becasue that is as much as you are entitled to; for one day you will more certainly lose even that very little, if you continue with the brains you carry!

[murataga]

repulsewarrior wrote: if you are old enough to have lived in a "mixed" village you will know that the villagers lived cooperatively, and that they had refined this lifestyle long before Toad Lane. As for the seperate neighbourhoods, i would say that this was common, so too the chances that these villagers having their yards adjoining. also i would like to add that if you love this island as much as i do, there is nothing that keeps us apart except ignorance, because as far as I know all Cypriots of whatever origin have the same basic wants and needs, with the same dignity, and respect for reason and goodwill.

welcome murataga

Firstly, thank you for the welcome.

Secondly, since you have asked, yes I do love Cyprus very much. That is why, in your anology, I want: (1) our "yards" to be side by side but seperate; and (2) me to to have the right to decide what I will do with my "yard" without you dictating it to me because you have more people living in your "house". I want this because we can be friends and partners as long as we respect and embrace our choices as two different communities rather than try to forcefully shape the other`s through any sort of a perverted political system.

Cooperation and friendship as two entities will work; trying to force one to abide by the other`s political will based on the the lethal assumption that we are the same will not.

[murataga]

Kifeas wrote: murataga wrote: -mikkie2- wrote: Here we go again! Domination by one or the other community. Fear of ones 'culture' being swamped. Turkish this, Greek that.

We are bloody Cypriots for Gods sake and our culture is essentially the same. Its only because of this bloody division that we are being changed to being more Greek or more Turkish. We are being taught to hate eachother even more as time passes.

We are the same and yet we are being split apart.

The same moronic and pathetic arguments keep coming up in these forums.

Cyprus is in a mess and we deserve what we get. Only yesterday, Talat proclaimed that the population of the north would be 500,000 if the settlers and their families were give 'citizenship'. Think about that and see what 'culture' is going to prevail in Cyprus. It won't be the Cypriot culture, thats for sure.

If you want to go there, Greece and Turkey are all Mediterraneans. They have similar food, their physical features look alike, they are both similarly emotional people, they have many similar traditions, they have similar dance figures, and etc... Actually, I will go as far claiming that Greeks are similar to Turks more than they are similar to the people of any EU member country.

Similarity is one thing but forcing that similarity as being one is another. We as Cypriots are not one, never have been and any effort to force us to be one is nothing less than a severe violation of our most fundamental human right. Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have never had intermarriage, never mingled more than they have to, and have never established a single major venture, be it educational, trade or any other purpose. All villages were separate and the so-called "mixed villages" had their Turkish Cypriot neighborhoods and Greek Cypriot neighborhoods. Oh I`m sorry, we did have a partnership establishment once called the Republic of Cyprus... but we all know how that went.

So, yes we are all Cypriots, but that does not make us the same or one, nor does it mean that we are to be ruled by the majority like we are one people. We are Turkish Cypriots and you are Greek Cypriots and the reality is that we are as similar as Spanish are similar to Italians or Greeks are to Turks. This differentiation in cultural aspects is even more pronounced in political identification and aspirations. Any type of settlement in this island shall be based on the will of these two people to live by their own tradition, culture, political interests and self-administration. This does not mean they have to be enemies. On the other hand, forcing the will, legitimacy or rein of one over the other in any form (call it whatever you like) is the guarantee of ethnic clash and bloodshed in Cyprus.

Utter rubbish! Nonesense!

Split Turkey in 2, or even 3 and 4, because the Kurds are not one people as the Turks of Turkey, or because the kemalists have a completely different cultural orientation than the islamists!

Spit the US in 1,000 pieces, because there are 1,000 different ethnic people living on its soil, split Australia, split Bulgaria, split almost every single country on earth, because nearly all of them are made out of various sub-ethnic or cultural groups!

Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots are two politically equal communities (defined by the U.N.), a fact which you refuse to accept by heart. Republic of Cyprus`s birth certificate bears the signature of the Turkish Cypriot and the Greek Cypriot leader, period. Your examples above are meaningless as none of those countries were established as Republic of Cyprus (date, associated agreements, prior conflicts, historical relevance and/or background, participation, legal structuring, sociological facts, ethnic relations, will of the people, international recognition and etc.) therefore none have the constitution we had in Republic of Cyprus that reflected our unique circumstances. Republic of Cyprus existed because we as the Turkish Cypriot element, like you, allowed it to and put our signature in to it under only very specific political structuring. You accepted the constitution and later used elements that were in your advantage to distort it and devastate the Turkish Cypriot partner for refusing what you had in mind for Cyprus.

You ARE a community in Cyprus, NOT the nation of Cyprus. Accept this and the limitations on your rights associated with it and we`ll solve the Cyprus problem in 6 months. Until you do that all bets are off.

[stavrizatz]

Erolz, perhaps osmosis is not the right world but I only hear from Turkish Cypriots who say "all Greek Cypriots want is osmosis" and when I asked what is osmosis, they told me it is when two people mixed together to become one! And I thought if that is osmosis then what is the problem?


turkcyp wrote:
I am not against osmosis in general.

It depends what I am osmosing (I dont even know if this is a word, but you get the point) into. If the Republic of Cyprus ceases to be Greek state but becomes a state with no or minimal ethnic and religious character like say USA, then I have no problem.

In a state where there is no or minimal ethnic character then I will feel safe that my heritage is not under threat or my democractic rights are not going to be curbed because of my language or background. But current Republic of Cyprus is way far from that state so hence our dislike for policy of osmosis.

The current Republic of Cyprus is making enormous efforts to allow the multicultural character of the island prevail but our ethnic problem makes it difficult. eg Turkish Cypriots being allowed to elect be elected when they live and pay their their taxes to an illegal regime, or Turkish Cypriots claiming their properties when they allready occupy Greek Cypriot properties in the North. I am not supporting the stand of the government, all I am saying is that there are some fine issues that the government has been dealing with and there is still room for improvement. But I am sure that in case of a solution we not be talking about a Republic of Cyprus at todays standards. It won't make sense for Turkish Cypriots to accept a solution that will discriminate against them so ofcourse when we are talking about osmosis type solution is not a type of solution where one group dominates another but a unitary state that reflects the character of the society.

Erolz wrote: You say there was never an attempt to force Turkish Cypriot to become Greek. All I can say is that if enosis had been acheived by nationality I would be Greek, my passport would be a Greek one, the state to which I would have citizenship would have been Greece. That may not represent 'being' Greek to you but to me it does.

Getting Greek passports doesn't mean that you are forced to become Greek. I am sure there are many Turks with Greek passport and many Greeks with Turkish passports and that does not make any of them Greek or Turkish. Unless I am very ignorant, Exhellinism didn't occur as opposed to Exislamism. In fact it a human right to have multiple identities and to retain your cultural identity while living in another country.

Erolz wrote: If you can not understand why Turkish Cypriot feared and opposed enosis then clearly you also will not be able to understand why Turkish Cypriot fear and oppose osmosis into a Greek dominated state.

I feel that not accepting enosis or osmosis or a solution that represents so called Greek domination is an excuse to justify partition and the Turkish strategy to Turkify the whole of, or part of Cyprus. That is my general feeling, correct me if I am wrong

[stavrizatz]

murataga wrote: Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots are two politically equal communities (defined by the U.N.), a fact which you refuse to accept by heart. Republic of Cyprus`s birth certificate bears the signature of the Turkish Cypriot and the Greek Cypriot leader, period. Your examples above are meaningless as none of those countries were established as Republic of Cyprus (date, associated agreements, prior conflicts, historical relevance and/or background, participation, legal structuring, sociological facts, ethnic relations, will of the people, international recognition and etc.) therefore none have the constitution we had in Republic of Cyprus that reflected our unique circumstances. Republic of Cyprus existed because we as the Turkish Cypriot element, like you, allowed it to and put our signature in to it under only very specific political structuring. You accepted the constitution and later used elements that were in your advantage to distort it and devastate the Turkish Cypriot partner for refusing what you had in mind for Cyprus.

You ARE a community in Cyprus, NOT the nation of Cyprus. Accept this and the limitations on your rights associated with it and we`ll solve the Cyprus problem in 6 months. Until you do that all bets are off.

Murat mou, all communities are equal in Cyprus, there is no doubt about that. It is your right to practice your cultural practices just like it is the right of every Cypriots. It is your right to be adressed as Tutk of Cyprus, Turkish Cypriot or just Cypriot. A truly unitary state respects all cultures and identities. Whether if the two cultures are extremely similar or extremely different, it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that human rights in Cyprus are violated. Once you reffered to UN, I will like to remind you that UN declared that the Turkish invasion was illegal, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a spurious entity and it should immediately be revoked. As for the last paragraph, I think it has been accepted long time now that we are a community and not the nation. Now what?

[Kifeas]

murataga wrote: repulsewarrior wrote: if you are old enough to have lived in a "mixed" village you will know that the villagers lived cooperatively, and that they had refined this lifestyle long before Toad Lane. As for the seperate neighbourhoods, i would say that this was common, so too the chances that these villagers having their yards adjoining. also i would like to add that if you love this island as much as i do, there is nothing that keeps us apart except ignorance, because as far as I know all Cypriots of whatever origin have the same basic wants and needs, with the same dignity, and respect for reason and goodwill.

welcome murataga

Firstly, thank you for the welcome.

Secondly, since you have asked, yes I do love Cyprus very much. That is why, in your anology, I want: (1) our "yards" to be side by side but seperate; and (2) me to to have the right to decide what I will do with my "yard" without you dictating it to me because you have more people living in your "house". I want this because we can be friends and partners as long as we respect and embrace our choices as two different communities rather than try to forcefully shape the other`s through any sort of a perverted political system.

Cooperation and friendship as two entities will work; trying to force one to abide by the other`s political will based on the the lethal assumption that we are the same will not.

No problem Murataga, you are free to do whatever you want in your yard, but do not expect the Greek Cypriots to consider Lapithos, Kyrenia, Morfou, Salamina, Kythrea, Karpasia and all the rest of the historically Greek Cypriot areas, towns and villages, as part of your yard! Most of these places that you now occupy illegally do constitute part of the Greek Cypriot's homeland and heritage (their very own yard so to say,) and not your yard -at least not alone! You are so pathetic!

[Kifeas]

murataga wrote:
Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots are two politically equal communities (defined by the U.N.), a fact which you refuse to accept by heart. Republic of Cyprus`s birth certificate bears the signature of the Turkish Cypriot and the Greek Cypriot leader, period. Your examples above are meaningless as none of those countries were established as Republic of Cyprus (date, associated agreements, prior conflicts, historical relevance and/or background, participation, legal structuring, sociological facts, ethnic relations, will of the people, international recognition and etc.) therefore none have the constitution we had in Republic of Cyprus that reflected our unique circumstances. Republic of Cyprus existed because we as the Turkish Cypriot element, like you, allowed it to and put our signature in to it under only very specific political structuring. You accepted the constitution and later used elements that were in your advantage to distort it and devastate the Turkish Cypriot partner for refusing what you had in mind for Cyprus.

You ARE a community in Cyprus, NOT the nation of Cyprus. Accept this and the limitations on your rights associated with it and we`ll solve the Cyprus problem in 6 months. Until you do that all bets are off.

Murataga, not only the Republic of Cyprus continues to exist -in spite of the fact that you have chosen to abandon it for the sake of your own “pan-turanist” irredentist and illegitimate ambitions, but, besides being as we speak a fully fletched UN member nation-state; it is now also an EU member nation-state, and even more; the last time I checked, some 80% of the members of your community have applied and obtained Republic of Cyprus passports and ID cards!

Furthermore, since I am sure you are one of those few that did not apply for a Republic of Cyprus ID or passport (most likely only because you somehow already posses a British one;) do check those Republic of Cyprus IDs and passports that your fellow Turkish Cypriots have obtained, to see that inside the space where nationality is written, it says “Kibrisli /Cypriot” and not “Turkish Cypriot!” Somehow, with the exception of a few pathetic individuals, the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots have accepted already that they are members of the nation of Cyprus, and not a community in Cyprus as you refer to the Greek Cypriots! In case you haven’t realized it, you have become a very laughable individual, with all the nonsense you are talking!

[repulsewarrior]

mr.K., can you explain why the Communal Chamber is unused, and do you consider its opening as a means to develop confidence.