www.talkcyprus.org

[Mete]

According to Afrika newspaper today, in Omonia-APOEL game, Omonia supporters opened up a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus flag in order to provoke APOEL fans! Omonia fans also opened up "Istanbul 1453" signs.

Did anyone hear this? If it's true it's crazy!

[stavrizatz]

Just for those who are aware but Omonoia is a team affilliated with AKEL (not officially) Most of them think they are communist, but most of them are stupid. They follow orders from the party and they don't use their common sense to make decisions of what is right and wrong.

Anyway the APOEL fans are not much better. Even so I am one of them some of the things that I hear in the stadium, I feel embarased... we are pro-enosis (which is not a bad thing) but I don't understand why in a stadium we need to sing "Cyprus is Greek". Additionally we are labelled as the nationalists and a minority of Apoel fans even bear the Svastinga of Hitler!

Anyway back to the topic... the leftist (Omonoia)who were the creators of the Enosis petition in the 1950s are the moved to wave of anti-hellinism and now to a wave of pro-China and pro-Turkey. In the stadium the had Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus flags, Greek flags with red cross over, Greek flags with the china flag replacing the cross, a paner that stated "fuck your nation" and another one "Instabul since 1453". Also what i fail to understand is why on one hand they say we are not Greek but on the other hand they study in Greece for free, supported Greece during Euro 2004. Also on the one hand they like Kazatzidis but when you tell them what about Kazatzides song "Cyprus is Greek" they reply ... "Did he write such song"? They love Papakonstantinou but they don't realise that he is also Greek!

Anyway I am not pissed of of the Omonoia funs they have always been rediculous... what I am pissed off is that Apoel lost at the time that we could off cleared the game from the first leg.

But we are still the CHAMPIONS and lets hope that Anorthosi (the team that kicked the arse of Trapezounta/Tranzospor in 2005) wins the Cup and let the poustokoumounia empty handed.

[Mete]

Quote:
In the stadium the had Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus flags, Greek flags with red cross over, Greek flags with the china flag replacing the cross, a paner that stated "fuck your nation" and another one "Instabul since 1453".

I think this is extremely stupid but good to see the freedom of speech/expression. I can't imagine anyone doing something like that to a Turkish flag in the north.

[pg]

Here are some photos:
http://www.apoel.net/apoel/news/pages/2007/0426b.shtml

[pg]

First of all let me say that I do not associate with any of these teams (but will win the cup in two weeks), and I do not think any of the groups are behaving in a way that should be supported - but the whole ordeal is rather interesting to follow...

Obviously the symbols were there more to piss of the APOEL fans than to give voice to their inner feelings - but it is refreshing that they are willing to step outside the fold a bit...

stavrizatz wrote: Also what i fail to understand is why on one hand they say we are not Greek but on the other hand they study in Greece for free, supported Greece during Euro 2004.

One can study for free, or almost free, in most of Europe and most likely their Greek is better than their German, French or Danish - nothing wrong with choosing Greece to study in as far as I can see.

Personally I work for a company with Greek owners, I often work with Greeks in the mother company who many times are more professional than Cypriots, I probably spend majority of my holidays in Greece, even prefer Greek food to Cypriot, etc, etc, but it is clear to me that Cyprus is not Greece and I think there would be great progress if more Cypriots realize this - APOEL fans too.
I see the relationship between Cyprus and Greece more like that of Canada/USA and Germany/Austria - in short, same language, shared culture, shared history, but different countries.

There is no reason to dislike the the other country just because one think we are and should be separate countries.

[pg]

stavrizatz wrote: I don't understand why in a stadium we need to sing "Cyprus is Greek".

Time to change name to APOKL. :wink:

[Kifeas]

pg wrote: Here are some photos:
http://www.apoel.net/apoel/news/pages/2007/0426b.shtml

Pg, you may transfer this message to your friends in Apoel, from an Omonia supporter.

The banners and "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" flags that made their appearance among the Omonia funs last Wednesday are of course despicable, shameful and provocative, regardless of the fact that they do not come from organized Omonia funs.

However, equally despicable, shameful and provocative is the long dated manipulation, pandering and exploitation by the organized Apoel funs of the Greek flag.

Indeed, the moral perpetrators of those despicable scenes of last Wednesday are the organized Apoel funs! Why do you have to carry the Greek flag in the stadiums, every time you play a game against another Greek Cypriot team? Which other team funs in Greece identify with the Greek flag, and carry it in the stadiums when they play against other Greek teams? The answer is none! Why then you?

Why then do you have to do it in Cyprus? Isn’t it because you are trying to suggest to the funs of the other teams that you are the Greek spirited ones, and they are not? Well, you got your answer last Wednesday! And their answer was that if you think you are the Greeks, then they are the Turks! After all, this is football, and the two “perennial opponents” were playing against each other, just like the Turks and the Greeks! And because they are not the Turks, neither you are the only Greeks! Therefore, stop exploiting the Greek flag and identifying it with your team, if you do not want to see such banners and flags among the stands of the opponent team! You started this flag war, with your capitalization and pandering of the Greek flag, and it is about time you stop it!

[stavrizatz]

pg wrote:
Quote: One can study for free, or almost free, in most of Europe and most likely their Greek is better than their German, French or Danish - nothing wrong with choosing Greece to study in as far as I can see.

You miss the point... Cypriots could study in Greece for free since ever, why? because Greece and Cyprus are the same, should be one country but the foreigners and AKEL did a good job in creating the trend of Cypriotism.

We had a conversation the other day... there were 2 Calamaraes, 2 Cypriots and one guy who was from Thrace (I will talk about that in another thread) said "for me Cypriots are just like Cretans, Vlahoi, ktl we all the Greeks and and for instance there are more differences from Atheneoi and Thessalonikioi than from Cypriots and Cretans." The other Cypriot guy said but no we Cypriots, we have our own government, our own currency. And I felt like telling him " re vlaka, re kathisterimene giati opote se simferi ise ellinas je opote se simferi ise Kypreos".

Pg wrote:
Quote: but it is clear to me that Cyprus is not Greece and I think there would be great progress if more Cypriots realize this
and I think you are arguing the same stupid thing-imo.

Cypriot nationalism is not progress, freedom to say you are what feel you are is progress. I am sure there are people who genuinly feel they are Cypriots and not Greek and that is perfectly fine, but I believe the extreme majority of those who say that they only do so to fit in a category they want.

Kifeas wrote:
Quote: Why do you have to carry the Greek flag in the stadiums, every time you play a game against another Greek Cypriot team?
Tell me about it, I cannot understand it either. Why would you carry any sort of natioal flag (in game where the national team is not playing). Why would people chant "EOKA B ksanaktipa" in game, I don't know either.

Saying that the 'kouloufkion' in APOEL is no where close to the 'kouloufkion' of Xomonoia.

[pg]

Kifeas wrote:
Pg, you may transfer this message to your friends in Apoel, from an Omonia supporter.

For the record, I am not in or with APOEL, and will never be.


On the road to work this week there has been someone who from their balcony has had the Omonia flag and the Republic of Cyprus flag flying - and it made me realise how rare it is to see someone privately flying the Cypriot flag.

This afternoon I got stuck in the traffic of the APOEL fans going from the club house towards the stadium - there was about 100 Greek flags in the parade and not a single Cypriot one as far as I could see.


In general I suspect the kids just have a general lack of role-models and Cypriot heroes. Attention seekers.

[pg]

stavrizatz wrote: pg wrote:
Quote: One can study for free, or almost free, in most of Europe and most likely their Greek is better than their German, French or Danish - nothing wrong with choosing Greece to study in as far as I can see.

You miss the point... Cypriots could study in Greece for free since ever, why? because Greece and Cyprus are the same, should be one country but the foreigners and AKEL did a good job in creating the trend of Cypriotism.


I still do not get the point...

One can study for free in Greece, in AKEL circles it is/was more common to study for free in Bulgaria or Moscow. The EU is since many years running the ERASMUS program, etc, to tie youth together.

I can still not understand why someone that promotes Cypriotism can, or should, not get a good education in Greece.

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: Cypriot nationalism is not progress, freedom to say you are what feel you are is progress. I am sure there are people who genuinly feel they are Cypriots and not Greek and that is perfectly fine, but I believe the extreme majority of those who say that they only do so to fit in a category they want.

I would just say that if one does not believe in Cypriot nationalism and the concept of a Cypriot nation made up of ALL cypriots regardless of ethnic background, then there is and can be no hope of ever creating a unitary inclusive Cypriot nation.

[pg]

erolz wrote: stavrizatz wrote: Cypriot nationalism is not progress, freedom to say you are what feel you are is progress. I am sure there are people who genuinly feel they are Cypriots and not Greek and that is perfectly fine, but I believe the extreme majority of those who say that they only do so to fit in a category they want.

I would just say that if one does not believe in Cypriot nationalism and the concept of a Cypriot nation made up of ALL cypriots regardless of ethnic background, then there is and can be no hope of ever creating a unitary inclusive Cypriot nation.

I do not think that any nationalism is productive orbring much good - mainly because it generally is exclusive. When I use the word Cypriotism it is not meant to mean Cypriot nationalism - not meant to be anything like Greek or Turkish nationalism with different colors; how could it...

[erolz]

pg wrote: erolz wrote: stavrizatz wrote: Cypriot nationalism is not progress, freedom to say you are what feel you are is progress. I am sure there are people who genuinly feel they are Cypriots and not Greek and that is perfectly fine, but I believe the extreme majority of those who say that they only do so to fit in a category they want.

I would just say that if one does not believe in Cypriot nationalism and the concept of a Cypriot nation made up of ALL cypriots regardless of ethnic background, then there is and can be no hope of ever creating a unitary inclusive Cypriot nation.

I do not think that any nationalism is productive orbring much good - mainly because it generally is exclusive. When I use the word Cypriotism it is not meant to mean Cypriot nationalism - not meant to be anything like Greek or Turkish nationalism with different colors; how could it...

The use of nationalism is to aid building a nation. If we have no concept or support for Cypriot nationalism then how do we build a Cypriot nation ? We either believe that a thing called the Cypriot nation exists , not just on paper but in our hearts or minds, or we do not. If we do believe it exits then that is an expression of cypriot nationalism. If we do not believe it exists then we can not hope to build a cypriot nation.

[pg]

erolz wrote: pg wrote: erolz wrote: stavrizatz wrote: Cypriot nationalism is not progress, freedom to say you are what feel you are is progress. I am sure there are people who genuinly feel they are Cypriots and not Greek and that is perfectly fine, but I believe the extreme majority of those who say that they only do so to fit in a category they want.

I would just say that if one does not believe in Cypriot nationalism and the concept of a Cypriot nation made up of ALL cypriots regardless of ethnic background, then there is and can be no hope of ever creating a unitary inclusive Cypriot nation.

I do not think that any nationalism is productive orbring much good - mainly because it generally is exclusive. When I use the word Cypriotism it is not meant to mean Cypriot nationalism - not meant to be anything like Greek or Turkish nationalism with different colors; how could it...

The use of nationalism is to aid building a nation. If we have no concept or support for Cypriot nationalism then how do we build a Cypriot nation ? We either believe that a thing called the Cypriot nation exists , not just on paper but in our hearts or minds, or we do not. If we do believe it exits then that is an expression of cypriot nationalism. If we do not believe it exists then we can not hope to build a cypriot nation.

I do not think we have the same understanding of what we mean with nationalism.

Wikipedia has nice short deliberations on the subject too. Still, IMHO the nationalism we have in this time and place is intervened with chauvinism and bordering on fascism, We do not need that with Cypriot colors to build a country.

The nationalism we have now should most likely be called ethnic nationalism, while what I think we can use is possibly closer to civic nationalism - which IMHO is in many ways the opposite of ethnic nationalism. What we need is based on rationalism and liberalism - far away fro chauvinism, etc.

In Cyprus we may not share a common religion, and nowadays less a common language; neither do we have a long history as a nation. However, we do share a common history and certainly we do have a common future. Most important though is that is that our future is clearly tied into our international interaction, whether those mean tourism, international business services or trade. In this future a multilingual and multi-ethnic country has great strength, and luckily it corresponds well to Cyprus' past. Combine this with the fact that the country is easily defined by its shores, nationalism has little value to add in building this country.

Many European countries that were once built using nationalism are now struggling trying to adapt to being a multicultural society. For Cyprus there is no need to first go the old way of building country based on nationalism and then trying to remove its negative parts.

We should instead base our country on securing the best possible future for all of us, as I mentioned based on rationalism and liberalism - which fortunately also is the basis of the European Union.

[erolz]

I think we are in agreement.

All I was saying really is that if as a cypriot you do not believe you are a cypriot but are in fact a greek or a turk that happens to reside in Cyprus, then there is no chance of building a unitary inclusive Cypriot nation. This can only be done if you believe you are a Cypriot who happens to have an ethnic connection as a Cypriot with Greece or Turkey. I say these things in response to the suggestion that "Cypriot nationalism is not progress, freedom to say you are what feel you are is progress." At the end of the day unless we believe in the idea of Cypriotism as a national identity seperate from and over Turk and Greek then we have no ability or chance to build a Cypriot nation.