www.talkcyprus.org

[Dhavlos]

Here goes.....im sort of talking off the top of my head, so some of it may not make sense.
I studied politics at school for my a-levels, and we styudied the different ideologies that have shaped modern politics, eg liberalism, conservatism, socialism, nationalism, communism, feminism.

Of all of them, i found nationalism one of the most entriguing. It made me think about where cyprus could ever have a single 'nation', all be cypriots rather than Turkish Cypriots/Greek Cypriots.(i know many support the idea of everyone being 'cypriot', but inevitably, most people identify themselves as Greek Cypriot/Turkish Cypriot, and imo, has been a contributing factor to the current situation in cyprus.)

many 'nationalist' thinkers, have come up with a simple list, although it is up for questioning, as to what constitutes a nation. the blueprint for a nation differs widely, but simplified:

To be a nation, it is commonly considered that a group of people must fullfill some, if not all, of these criteria.

1)common language
2)common religion
3)shared geographical area
4)common culture
5)common race
6)shared history/tradition

For each of these, i have commented on them for cyprus, if they have not been satisfied by 'cypriots' then i have put a way this could be acheived.

1) Not really(simple solution, make sure everyone can speak Turkish and Greek, then they share two languages, not just one)
2)no(very tricky one, however i think that cyprus, like most of europe is becoming more secular in its thoughts, and the State should be secular....the role of the church and mosque should not be in politics, and i think they would not be so much of an obsticle as they once were)
3)obviously yes...the island of cyprus
4)maybe(culture is usually made up from religion/religious festivals, but as we have seen in one of the other topics....some of the things we do are the same- also, non-religious festivals would help to bring a sense of common culture)
5)Again, like in one of the other topics, we can see we are more similar than we thought!
6)yep, shared history, but sadly a modern one of conflict. Im sure there are things that were good though!

so i think cyprus could really be 'one nation' if we tried! Most of the points have been satisfied(even if people cant immediately see it), and the rest can easily be acheived, if both 'sides' are willing to agree.
Ultimately if cyprus wants to unite successfully, then a sense of nationhood, common fraternity needs to be instilled, rather tahn one of division.

I hope you all agree with me.....

[Xenos 2Fan]

Dhavlos wrote: Here goes.....im sort of talking off the top of my head, so some of it may not make sense.
I studied politics at school for my a-levels, and we styudied the different ideologies that have shaped modern politics, eg liberalism, conservatism, socialism, nationalism, communism, feminism.

Of all of them, i found nationalism one of the most entriguing. It made me think about where cyprus could ever have a single 'nation', all be cypriots rather than Turkish Cypriots/Greek Cypriots.(i know many support the idea of everyone being 'cypriot', but inevitably, most people identify themselves as Greek Cypriot/Turkish Cypriot, and imo, has been a contributing factor to the current situation in cyprus.)

many 'nationalist' thinkers, have come up with a simple list, although it is up for questioning, as to what constitutes a nation. the blueprint for a nation differs widely, but simplified:

To be a nation, it is commonly considered that a group of people must fullfill some, if not all, of these criteria.

1)common language
2)common religion
3)shared geographical area
4)common culture
5)common race
6)shared history/tradition

For each of these, i have commented on them for cyprus, if they have not been satisfied by 'cypriots' then i have put a way this could be acheived.

1) Not really(simple solution, make sure everyone can speak Turkish and Greek, then they share two languages, not just one)


I like this idea. I know it's not going to happen overnight but if both languages were taught at schools it would be a step closer. Perhaps as an elective initially.

2)no(very tricky one, however i think that cyprus, like most of europe is becoming more secular in its thoughts, and the State should be secular....the role of the church and mosque should not be in politics, and i think they would not be so much of an obsticle as they once were)
3)obviously yes...the island of cyprus
4)maybe(culture is usually made up from religion/religious festivals, but as we have seen in one of the other topics....some of the things we do are the same- also, non-religious festivals would help to bring a sense of common culture)
5)Again, like in one of the other topics, we can see we are more similar than we thought!
6)yep, shared history, but sadly a modern one of conflict. Im sure there are things that were good though!

so i think cyprus could really be 'one nation' if we tried! Most of the points have been satisfied(even if people cant immediately see it), and the rest can easily be acheived, if both 'sides' are willing to agree.
Ultimately if cyprus wants to unite successfully, then a sense of nationhood, common fraternity needs to be instilled, rather tahn one of division.

I hope you all agree with me.....

[Dhavlos]

what do you mean an elective?

[Crash Test Dummy]

By making one 'mixed' community you will be erasing 2 old ones. This is not good. How can you cherry pick certain aspects of a culture?

[Dhavlos]

not cherry pick and then ignore some of each othres culture, but emphasise things that are in common.

eg, there once used to be an 'orange festival' before 74 in larnaca that was not 'religious', or the boat-ceremony thing in kyrenia, which was celebrating cypriot history. These kind of things are what should be celebrated/emphasised, and not things like OXI-day or the Greek independance....they are not cypriot celebrations imo, they are for greece.

Some things are different, i agree, and they should not be forgotten, but we must emphasis the things that are similar.

[Crash Test Dummy]

stuff like the orange festival is fine but if the people what to celebrate Greece,Turkey or India they should be allowed. Dont give disproportional funding to a certain celebration.

[Dhavlos]

Im not making myself clear.
yes, people can celebrate Greece/Turkey/Papua New Guinea, but what i mean is that Bank/Public Holidays should be ones like the orange festival, and not things like OXI-day, which i think they do at the moment.

Public/Bank holidays should be ones that are for CYPRUS, eg independance, some religious holidays, NOT things like OXI day/Turkish independance etc..

that is what i mean...hope that makes sense.

[brother]

Dhavlos wrote: Im not making myself clear.
yes, people can celebrate Greece/Turkey/Papua New Guinea, but what i mean is that Bank/Public Holidays should be ones like the orange festival, and not things like OXI-day, which i think they do at the moment.

Public/Bank holidays should be ones that are for CYPRUS, eg independance, some religious holidays, NOT things like OXI day/Turkish independance etc..

that is what i mean...hope that makes sense.


I think dhavlos is onto something here, we need to get rid of the unnecessary holidays that promote the division or are completley 'out of order' or offend the other part of our people.

Why should we be celebrating 'eoka heroes' or the 'turkish intervention' are two that springs to mind for example.

[Dhavlos]

Quote: I think dhavlos is onto something here, we need to get rid of the unnecessary holidays that promote the division or are completley 'out of order' or offend the other part of our people.

you dont know how long i have been thinking about this....it just makes sense....and the whole, greek nat. antherm being the same as the cypriot one....gosh it annoys me no end

[brother]

Quote: you dont know how long i have been thinking about this....it just makes sense....and the whole, greek nat. antherm being the same as the cypriot one....gosh it annoys me no end

The north is no better, i remember singing the turkish national anthem every day at school in cyprus.

[cannedmoose]

Folks, the issue is this... you can tell people not to celebrate things like oxi day, or the Turkish invasion, but chances are that for a generation, they will... the more you tell people not to celebrate something, particularly when it relates to 'who they are', the more you will encourage mass celebration of it - even if it is not an official state day. I see no issue with allowing people to celebrate different holidays, or even allowing both communities holidays on national days. However, it's the mass marches celebrating nationalist holidays that are the real issue - as they have been in Northern Ireland. If you can make these nationalist days simple holidays as opposed to state-sponsored marching pagents, I'm sure that most people will choose a day at the beach rather than attending a march. Rather, state support should be for those national days that both communities can celebrate - such as religious holidays and 'reunification' day.

As for the language issue, I see the way forward as teaching both Greek and Turkish to children from the earliest stage possible, i.e. as soon as they enter school. Even if schools choose to concentrate on one language or another, at least you will have an entire generation who are at least able to basically converse in each others language. I also believe that English should also be taught as a third language to all children. There is no difficulty in encouraging trilingualism, it is commonplace in many countries and if taught from an early age becomes a simple fact of society, rather than a political issue. It's something I suggested on the other forum, yet some people seemed to dismiss it as being potentially confusing for people - somewhat underestimating the capacity of most children to soak up new languages like sponges.

[gabs]

what makes a nation?

those who group together within internationally recognised borders for their own individual common good

[brother]

Quote: As for the language issue, I see the way forward as teaching both Greek and Turkish to children from the earliest stage possible, i.e. as soon as they enter school. Even if schools choose to concentrate on one language or another, at least you will have an entire generation who are at least able to basically converse in each others language. I also believe that English should also be taught as a third language to all children. There is no difficulty in encouraging trilingualism, it is commonplace in many countries and if taught from an early age becomes a simple fact of society, rather than a political issue. It's something I suggested on the other forum, yet some people seemed to dismiss it as being potentially confusing for people - somewhat underestimating the capacity of most children to soak up new languages like sponges.

I agree and completely support this idea, most children have no problem learning two languages and a third would be no skin of their noses.

[Dhavlos]

moose, youve said what i meant a lot clearer. Thanks!

[Bullika]

Quote: To be a nation, it is commonly considered that a group of people must fullfill some, if not all, of these criteria.

1)common language
2)common religion
3)shared geographical area
4)common culture
5)common race
6)shared history/tradition


does that mean the turkish cypriots are a nation?

assuming you mean cyprus in general, then we fulfill four out of six, thats encouraging. however thats not enough, how about a common sentiment of belonging to that nation? if 90% of cypriots say i am turkish / greek and do as their "motherlands" instruct them, obey ankara / athens not nicosia, then how will this nation develop into a nation-state? my guess is it will never happen unless there is sentiment.