www.talkcyprus.org

[polis]

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[polis]

StelC wrote: I do not know why but a couple of weeks ago I had the desire to go to my university’s library and look for Greek books just to see the collection they have there. I was surprised to see such a big collection since it is a Canadian university. I picked a Greek book called “Αρματωλοί και Κλέφτες”. It is an old book describing the years right before 1821, which I never had the chance to read during school. I read the book within a couple of days, constantly feeling proud of the characters described in the book as I was reading it. As I was returning the book to the library the following day I couldn’t helped wondering. How could I, a person so proud of his Greek descend, ever agree to never fighting back to take what was once “ours” if a solution is ever agreed upon.

I learnt history through my schoolbooks and what people had told me. I knew Turkey and Turkish Cypriots through the fear and hate of those close to me. I came to hate the Turkish and Turkish Cypriots while in the army. I avoided contact with Turkish people at university.

I feel proud of my history, of my people, of my national anthem and flag.

The next book I borrowed had to do with the recent negotiations (prior to 2003). I came to understand both sides-the unreliability and inconsistency of Denktash being a negative factor nonetheless. I now have two more books, a historical one written by Christofis Oikonomides and another describing the sources of nationalism in Cyprus.

Through these books and many more to come, I am slowly getting a grasp of the real facts. Gradually understanding what happened. I always knew that my side had a big share in the troubles which broke out in the 1960s. However, like most of my people, I always thought that Britain was to be blamed for giving too much power to the Turkish Cypriots. For giving them the “right” of having unreasonable demands.

It had never crossed my mind that they had the right of making demands as well. If you think about it, how selfish were the Greek Cypriots asking for a union with Greece if 15-20% of the population did not want that?
We had the chance to settle the problem so many times but we always asked for too much. Which has lead us up to this point, a point where we now know that what we are negotiating for is less than anything else ever been offered to us.

My point isn’t that however. The way I feel about Turkish people, and perhaps Turkish people, arises from whatever I have been taught so far. As I self educate myself on the real facts, the hate is fading away and turning into compassion.

Who is going to educate my side, and your side on what really happened? A solution is nothing if the foundations are not there to support it. The way we feel about our history needs to change. Nationalism needs to dwindle. How is that going to happen though, if we both feel so proud of who we are? If we both feel the urge to pass it on to our children?

Ill try and keep an eye on these forums, for the first time feeling content in engaging in conversations with people from the other side.

Ok, the particular forum member had over two months to develop his post. He did nothing so far, so maybe it's time to revisit the particular thread:

His story is a s follows: About two weeks before the post (around the 22nd February) he went to his college library 'without knowing why' (probably a shy reference to a higher spirit) to look for Greek books. He landed on a book called 'Armatoli kai kleftes' (!) which he spent a couple of days reading 'constantly feeling proud of the characters described in the book'. That brigns us to the 24th February.

Till this date , the author of the post was still 'feeling proud of his history, of his people, of his national anthem and flag' even more than before, having read the 'armatoli' text. So much so, that he had spent the weekend of the 24th and 25th February 2007 wondering how could 'a person so proud of his Greek descend, ever agree to never fighting back to take what was once “ours” if a solution is ever agreed upon'. He still 'knew Turkey and Turkish Cypriots through the fear and hate of those close to him.' So, having only learnt history 'through his schoolbooks and what people had told him' as well as the effect of his military service, he spent that weekend still 'hating the Turkish and Turkish Cypriots and avoiding contact with Turkish people at university'

Then the world just turned upside down! Within a span of ten days (the post was written on the 8th March) he managed to get hold of and read through a book on the Annan plan, another one by Economides (last time I saw the particular book it was being sold at my local corner shop, next to the Lucky Lukes and the potato crisps) and finally a third one by Rebecca Bryant. And suddenly he saw the light: his nationalism simply 'dwindled'; he saw through the 'biases' of 'the Cypriot history recited by both sides', 'understood what happened', realized that 'the way he felt about Turkish people, arose from whatever he had been taught so far, the 'hate' suddenly 'faded away and turned into compassion', he was 'cleansed of a lifetime of being brain washed by 'nationalistic views' and became suddenly aware that 'relying simply on small conferences to “brake the ice” between the two communities' does not work.

What is one to make of this this post? Is one to believe that a lifetime of nationalist brain washing just simply fades away within not as much as a fortnight simply by reading the right book, or is someone just pulling our leg?

[cypezokyli]

even if he is pulling our leg , (bc the time span is too short) .... yes ofcource the right book can change your opinion. or it might pose questions one never thought of posing before....


........
i really dont know why you are on purpose trying to reduce the value of economideis books. what exactly is your problem with what he wrote ?
what exactly would you suggest us to read instead ?

[100%cypriot]

Pose Questions or Give Answers to the Reality's

[polis]

cypezokyli wrote: even if he is pulling our leg , (bc the time span is too short) .... yes ofcource the right book can change your opinion. or it might pose questions one never thought of posing before....


........
i really dont know why you are on purpose trying to reduce the value of economideis books. what exactly is your problem with what he wrote ?
what exactly would you suggest us to read instead ?

I don't think much of Economide's book but that's besides the point. In Cyprus it is quite common for new books to be sold at the local newsagents. A very good book that was published only a few days ago by the former vice chief of Police, Fanis Dimitriou, is also being sold at newsagents (though I got my copy from a bookstore), and that does not reflect negatively on its quality. My point was that Economidi's book was widely available at the time it was published. It is not like Stel had to go all the way to Canada to be able to get hold of the book to see the light.

[Bananiot]

In the book you are referring to, Fanis Demetriou describes the way that murdering animal Sampson executed an English holidaymaker in Kyrenia in 1961, in front of his wife and 2 kids.

By the way, tomorrow is the anniversary of the coup in Greece in 1967.

[polis]

Bananiot wrote: In the book you are referring to, Fanis Demetriou describes the way that murdering animal Sampson...

And you think that somehow using these terms helps built your argument?

[Bananiot]

I have no aspiration to built an argument. If you have something to say, just say it.

[polis]

Bananiot wrote: I have no aspiration to built an argument. If you have something to say, just say it.

I already said it.

[Bananiot]

Why didn't you like Economides's book?

[StelC]

I never came back to the forums because the topics were not what I wanted to read and get involved in. To me, most of these discussions were just touching the surface.

The 3 books I described back then are not the only ones I read since. And certainly not the only place that I have my facts from. I took part in endless debates with my friends and relatives around the issue. To me is the best way to prove to yourself what you really believe in, when you have to support it. The “cleansing” process did not occur through the books but rather began because of them.

Polis, I find it funny you are actually criticizing me as if am 12 years old. So ill tell you what I really believe in.

We can all argue endlessly on the true origin of the bi communal fights leading to the invasion etc. Which is what most of you are doing judging on the threads here.

I ll talk about the Greek Cypriot side which is the one I live in. Every government in power ever since 1974 have reassured our commitment to the solution of the Cyprus problem and have constantly taken “steps” to reach out to the other community.

Last time I checked my brother was still taught more greek history than Cypriot in school. Why isn’t the 60s to 70s period ever discussed even remotely in junior school? If they are not too young to know what happened in 1974 why are they too young to know even the basics of what the 60s and what the difference between a Turk and Turkish Cypriot is. Last time I checked there are 3 official state languages. If thats true, why are students taught English and French at school instead of Turkish? In every bilingual country of the world, government officials are obliged to speak all official languages.
Why did everyone try so desperately to make us believe that Greece cares so much about Cyprus? Have you talked to any Greek people lately? Most of them don’t give a shit and the more educated ones just think that the Cyprus problem is dragging Greece down the road with it.
I still think its funny how DISI keeps the greek flags in their rallies and akel doesnt. Been to an apoel vs omonia match lately? Same shit every year. And they blame the fans instead of the parties.

You speak of pride of the 1955 fight. Lets analyze that pride. The British are responsible for so many bad things that happened in Cyprus. Some would argue they are the cause of all problems. Yet we try our best to attract the british tourists, send our students there, sell them our houses here. A proud person like you should obviously understand the irony of that, no?

I ve educated myself enough on the subject on “whos fault it is” to know that it doesn’t really matter anymore. Simple, uneducated people are to be blamed. But can they really be blamed for things that they could not understand?

I don’t study politics but commerce instead. In an era where economic development depends on the braking down of international borders, you cant possibly be thinking of creating one. And you are more stupid to support that if you are on the Greek Cypriot side. Because our own prosperity lies in a united Cyprus and not in the south, no matter what you ve been taught about the impoverished Turkish Cypriot side. Before 1974, 78% of the economy was based in the north. If their state was ever to be recognized, the tourists would flood their beaches. Not ours.

Reading 3 books back then didn’t change my view on the world. It just stimulated a process inside me to understand whether it matters or not, whatever happened back then. Both sides are to be blamed, and for me, that’s the end of it.

Polis…Pali me xronia me kairous, pali dikia mas 8a ine. Stick to that and keep believing it. And then go discuss it with the people in Greece who do all their shopping there because its cheaper.

Ps. “Is one to believe that a lifetime of nationalist brain washing just simply fades away within not as much as a fortnight simply by reading the right book, or is someone just pulling our leg?”

I found this hilarious. “Lifetime of nationalist brain washing”. Heh. Trust me, if you are at my age, 22, then you have been exposed to the same education and brain washing that I have.