www.talkcyprus.org

[Kifeas]

The lies of the Turkish side and the brainwashing against the Turkish Cypriot public!

One of the major standard Turkish propaganda claims (lies) and of the nationalist historical Turkish Cypriot leadership under the master of manipulation and lies, Mr. Denktash, is the one referring to the size of the Turkish Cypriot enclaves during the period of 1964-1968, during which they exploited the intercommunal violence which they (TMT, the Turkish Cypriot leadership and mainland Turkish secret services) equally provoked and invited (according all serious foreign researchers and authors,) in order to set up the foundations of invasion and partition. They claim that the Greek Cypriots “squeezed” them to an area of less than 3% of Cyprus, a lie they continue trying to pass around up until this day, and they even post maps in their propaganda web-sites, in order to “prove” their propaganda allegations.

One such map with the relevant false comments /allegations appears in one of the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” websites, in the following link.

http://www.trncinfo.com/TANITMADAIRESI/2002/ENGLISH/DOCUMENTS/24.htm

Based on the scale of the same map in which they claim that the areas painted in red, represent the 3% of Cyprus, I have calculated the size of the area that would truly represent the 3% of Cyprus, which I embedded as a green box at the upper right part of the same map appearing below.



The size of Cyprus is equal to 9,251 sq. kms. The 3% of the island is consequently equal to 277.5 sq. kms. The square root of 277.5 is equal to 16.66. Therefore, an area equal to 277.5 sq. kms (3% of Cyprus) corresponds to a rectangular box with dimensions of 16.66 kms times 16.66 kms (16.66 x 16.66,) which is exactly the size of the green box I drew in the above map, based on the scale of the map.

Compare the green box with the entire areas painted in red in the above map, and you will obviously realize that they constitute a much bigger area.

I spend over 1 hour using another software package that I downloaded from the internet, Global Mapper 7, which has the power to calculate marked areas of a map, based on a scale, and tell you the size of an area in units of square meters or kms. The total area in the above map that is painted with a red color (Turkish Cypriot enclaves,) came out to be 1561 sq. kms, close to 17% (16.874%) of Cyprus.

[erolz]

Kifeas wrote: ..., during which they exploited the intercommunal violence which they (TMT, the Turkish Cypriot leadership and mainland Turkish secret services) equally provoked and invited (according all serious foreign researchers and authors,)...

You talk of lies and then come out with this ? Yes there were elements on both sides seeking to perpetrate violence and provoke violence - but was this equal? In what sense was it 'equal'? Where are these serious foreign researchers and authors that talk of this 'equality' of perpetrating and provoking violence?

Who cares what the % of the enclaves were? The fact is that 1/3 of the entire Turkish Cypriot population was driven from their homes by Greek Cypriot violence and fear of it - much of it organised and planned by senior members of the Greek Cypriot leadership. Homes that Turkish Cypriot fled from were looted and burnt. Turkish Cypriot ended up in crowed enclaves - sleeping in tents and caves for periods. Access of people and goods in and out of these enclaves was controlled by Greek Cypriot leadership including basic goods like building materials and medicines. Electricity and telephony was often cut off.

All this apparently represents to you today is an opportunity to present Turkish Cypriot as liars who have made up stories of Greek Cypriot oppression that are not true. You apparently care nothing of the very real and very planned oppression of the Turkish Cypriot community by Greek Cypriot in this period - that it was done and why it was done and by whom it was done are all irrelevant to you. The very real pain that the Turkish Cypriot community suffered at the hands of a numerically dominant Greek Cypriot population in control of all the organs of state and backed up by 10,000's of Greek mainlanders shipped into Cyprus is nothing to you. All this period of history means to you today is a chance to paint Turkish Cypriot as liars because of some meaningless figures. You behave like this and then wonder why I and the Turkish Cypriot community lacks trust of Greek Cypriot as a group?

The simple reality is that the Greek Cypriot leadership at this time representing the numerically larger community believed it was powerful enough to force acquiescence on the Turkish Cypriot community by oppressing and using violence against it - and this is what it tried to do. No serious observer or author or journalist disputes this. However this is not worthy of mention or comment by yourself - what really matters is how accurate the figure of 3% is - for that is (according to you) the real issue.

[Kifeas]

Since when does your side’s leadership truly care for compassion on the part of the Greek Cypriots, for what your community suffered? Since when does your side truly care for an apology from the part of the Greek Cypriots, for whatever mistakes we (some of us) committed in the past? Since when does your side truly care for any help or assistance from the part of the Greek Cypriot community, so that we together get out of this messy deadlock?

All your official side and elite cared and care about is how to more effectively and efficiently use the (largely manipulated) past as a benchmark -a vaulting horse, onto which to base, forward and consolidate its illegitimate ambitions and aims in Cyprus, all in the expense and the legitimate rights of the Greek Cypriots!

If you truly cared for the Greek Cypriot’s apology, sympathy, compassion and assistance, you would have been more sincere, objective and truthful regarding the past, but you do not! You want to use the past for the present and the future, and you would even use an apology from the part of the Greek Cypriots for precisely the same purpose!

[zan]

It seems more than just the Turkish Cypriots thought it was 3% regardless of what Kifeas' dodgy calculations say. :roll:


Quote: Glafcos Clerides, now the President of the Greek Cypriots, said at the time "we the Greek Cypriots are in full control of the Government. All the Ministers are Greeks. Our government is the only one recognised internationally - why should we bring the Turks back in? The Turks today control only 3% of the land. They have no rich resources and they are living through difficult times from an economic point of view. They will ultimately have to accept our point of view - or go."




http://www.konsey.org.uk/

[Birkibrisli]

Surely this must depend on what one means by "controlling" the land.
If it means the land lived on by Turkish Cypriots,it surely could not have been just the 3% of Cyprus.I was in Nicosia in 1963 but I know that my village in Paphos and the other 3 Turkish Cypriot villages around it stayed put.All the other villages my father tought at up until 1963 (Yalia in Paphos,Aytotro in Larnaca,Sinde in Famagusta and Kandu in Limassol) also stayed put.Just these villages alone would probably account for more than 3% of the land in Cyprus.

But if by "controlling" one means having the means to defend it by force of arms,that would only apply to the Turkish Cypriot part of Nicosia plus a narrow corridor towards and including Ortakoy.That area would probably not be more than 3 % of the land...

[Get Real!]

Erolz...
Quote: Who cares what the % of the enclaves were?

Your attempt to dismiss Kifeas' research and evidence presented, that one or more Turkish Cypriot websites falsifies facts with regards to the enclaves, by sidetracking into irrelevant emotional support in favor of the Turkish Cypriot community is NOT an appropriate reply.

Kifeas should be congratulated for his work while offering everyone else the opportunity to counter his findings with evidence against... something yet to be done.

[erolz]

Get Real! wrote: Erolz...
Quote: Who cares what the % of the enclaves were?

Your attempt to dismiss Kifeas' research and evidence presented, that one or more Turkish Cypriot websites falsifies facts with regards to the enclaves, by sidetracking into irrelevant emotional support in favor of the Turkish Cypriot community is NOT an appropriate reply.

Kifeas should be congratulated for his work while offering everyone else the opportunity to counter his findings with evidence against... something yet to be done.

I dismiss the idea that what is relevant about that period is not the Greek Cypriot state sponsored oppression of the Turkish Cypriot community but actually what % of Cyprus was under Turkish Cypriot community control and 'how Turkish Cypriot admin lies'. This 'research' by Kifeas is clearly an attempt to divert attention from the blantant lie of TP - presented in black and white only a couple of years ago whilst he was the President of the Republic of Cyprus.

I will present evidence of how flawed Kifea's 'research' is but I do so with no real expectation that it will mean anything to people like yourself, for clearly you have no interest in the truth of what happened and why it so that lessons can be learned and a better future built. All you care about is what propaganda can be extracted from it and you really do not care how flawed the basis for that propaganda may be.

The following is from UN document S/6102 - which is the UNFICYP report to the security council for the period 10 September to 12 December 1964. Of course figures from the UN that was actually there during the period concerned can and should be ignored in favor of Kifea's figures produced by flawed method using a graphical image map on a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus webiste - should propaganda require it.

Quote: s/6102

REFORT BY THE SECRETARY-GENERAL ON THE UNITED NATIONS
OPERATION IN CYPRUS
(For the period 10 September .to 12 December 1964)


(ii) Positions occupied by the Government and Turkish Cypriot Forces

143. In the period under review, there has been little change in the disposition of Government and Turkish Cypriot forces from the positions which they occupied at the time of the report of 10 September 1964. The Turkish Cypriots continue in control of several widely scattered areas, which include the northern part of Nicosia City, its north-western suburbs and the region to the east and west of Kyrenia road up to the southern edge of the town of Kyrenia; the town of Louroujina; the Turkish quarters of Famagusta and Larnaca; an enclave comprising Lefka, another around Kalyvakia, and the two beach-heads at Kokkina and Limnitis. These areas are administered by the Turkish Cypriot community, under the authority of the Vice-President's office, and are defended by positions manned by
Turkish Cypriot fighters. In the aggregate, these Turkish Cypriot areas cover approximately 54 square miles, or 1 l/2 per cent of the total area of the country, with a population of about 59,000, including13,600 refugees. Access to them is effectively interdicted to Greek Cypriots in general, and to Government troops, police and. administrative agents in particular, except for travel on the Kyrenia Road and across Limnitis bridgehead under UNFICYP escort. Roadblocks, trenches, fortified posts, and sandbag emplacements on the ground or behind windows or on the roofs of buildings, are the visible marks of this situation.

146. It should be noted that there are substantial Turkish Cypriot communities in such places as Ktima and Limassol, as well as a number of Turkish Cypriot villages, which are under the military, police, and administrative control of the Government. Some of these, notably Ktima (occupied on 4-7 March) were militarily subdued by the Government forces during the disturbances which took place prior to the establishment of UNFICYP. These should not be counted among the areas under actual control of the Turkish Cypriot leadership in Nicosia, although in practice the Turkish Cypriot community leaders in such places follow the political line of their compatriots in Nicosia, while Greek Cypriot civilians prefer to avoid straying into them.

Like I have already said arguing about if Turkish Cypriot controlled 1.5%, 3% or 6% in this period is an exercise in pointlessness, that could only have value to those that do not want to deal with the reality of what occurred in this period. I could show the sections from this same UN report that talk of the 3,000 Turkish Cypriot refugees living in tents at Hamid Mandres or the 800 refugees in Kokkina who had made their homes in caves or holes in the hillside in need of relief in the form of basic foodstuffs and clothing. I could mention how the UN forces talk in this report about trying to persuade the Greek Cypriot leadership to ease restrictions on things like wollen clothing and tents into these refugee areas with winter approaching - as such items were on the Greek Cypriot leaderships prescribed list of goods not allowed to enter Turkish Cypriot areas. I could quote the sections dealing with the UN efforts to let through to the suffering Turkish Cypriot refugees red crescent aid - held up and blocked by the Greek Cypriot leadership. But of course no of this is of any relevance is it - what really matters ans should be the only subject of our discussion today is trying to prove that Turkish Cypriot are liars.

[pg]

Let's agree on something!

The % of land controlled by Turkish Cypriot armed forces (meaning government officials or Greek Cypriots could not access it), is not the same % as the land that Turkish Cypriot lived on.

Is it not nice to agree on things now and then?

Something else: There has been a lot of suffering among Cypriots. Can we agree on that too?

[Khan]

Perhaps if we could acknowledge that suffering in a respectful manner we would be all the better. Look at Kifeas's response to the unearthing of Turkish Cypriot bodies, to come here with his map (which he spent an hour on no less) and accuse our community of being liars, how we orchestrated the violence ourselves, and how our only intention in bringing these issues to light is so we can consolidate our "illegitimate ambitions and aims in Cyprus"...

If they found 40 Greek Cypriot bodies in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, i would be asking more questions about how they got there, who was responsbile and how it will be handled, as opposed to launching a political tirade on the "ambitions" of the Greek Cypriot community. But that is Kifeas for you.

[Birkibrisli]

pg wrote: Let's agree on something!

The % of land controlled by Turkish Cypriot armed forces (meaning government officials or Greek Cypriots could not access it), is not the same % as the land that Turkish Cypriot lived on.

Is it not nice to agree on things now and then?

Something else: There has been a lot of suffering among Cypriots. Can we agree on that too?

I think any logical thinking person would agree with both your premises,pg.Lets drop pointless point scoring against each other.We (rather our fathers and gandfathers with lots of outside help) have stuffed up big time,some paid with our lives ,others in worse ways.
Lets work to find as many missing persons remains as possible to give some closure to their relatives. Does anyone know why not even one missing Greek Cypriot person's remains have been found by Turkish Cypriot authorities in all these years?Surely not all eyewitnesses have died or became senile??? :(

[stavrizatz]

Analysis of the post of the web link provided by Zan:

Misrepresentation #1:
Quote: There has never been a Cypriot nation and Cyprus has never been part of the Greek State.
Among with two other points this is the most common argument why Enosis was illegitimate. Purpose of the above statement is to encourage the reader believe that Cyprus was never Greek, never Cypriot therefore the demand for enosis or as independent unitary state is illegitimate. Yes Cyprus was never part of the Greek state only because the Greek state was found in 1830 however Cyprus was Greek for approximately 2500 years and further 800 its mainly Greek population struggled to free Cyprus from the foreign occupiers and be part of a Greek state.

Misrepresentation #2
Quote: Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots have each lived in the island for more than 400 years.
History of Cyprus does not start with the invasion of the Ottoman empire in Cyprus. Greek culture was assimilated on the island for more than 3000 years as opposed to 436 years of Turkish.

Misrepresentation #3
Quote: Visitors to Northern Cyprus today, enjoying the welcome of their Turkish Cypriot hosts and the beauty and tranquility of OUR land will find it hard to imagine the terrible suffering we endured only a few years ago, which made it necessary to have a Turkish Cypriot State in the North and a separate Greek Cypriot State in the south.
Part of history of remembering and forgetting, especially the word OUR land,
I don’t really want to comment further on this as the lies are obvious.

Misrepresentation #4
Quote: However, within three years the Greek Cypriots threw the Turkish Cypriots out of all our official positions by force of arms
Turkish Cypriots withdraw from their positions; they were not forced by Greek Cypriots.

Misrepresentation #5
Quote: They attempted genocide against us three times - in 1963, 1967, and 1974.
If the death of few hundred people during a conflict constitutes genocide then what was the invasion of 1974? A holocaust!!!

Misrepresentation #6
Quote: Turkey was unable to land troops in 1963 and 1967, but sent its soldiers to rescue us in 1974…
‘Rescue us’ from what? At the time that the conflict was clearly between Greek Cypriots and Greek Cypriots.

Misrepresentation #7
Quote: "On 20th July 1974 Turkey intervened under Article IV of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee"
The perfect answer is given by Rebecca A. Millouras:
“Firstly; Article IV of the Treaty of Guarantee did not authorize "force" when it authorized "action." The Treaty does not mention the word "force." Secondly, Cyprus became a member of the United Nations in 1960, and at that time all provisions of the London-Zurich Agreements in conflict with or inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations became null and void pursuant to article 103 of the United Nations Charter. If an interpretation of Article IV of the Treaty of Guarantee could justify the use of force, then Article IV is in direct conflict with article 103 of the United Nations Charter and, is illegal, thus void ab initio.”

Misrepresentation #8
Quote: WHY ARE TURKISH SOLDIERS STILL IN CYPRUS?
Because international guarantees, including a guarantee from Britain, and the actual presence of UN troops in Cyprus since 1964 failed to protect the Turkish Cypriots, we have concluded that the only effective guarantee for the safety of our families is to ask Turkey to keep its troops in the northern part of Cyprus for so long as may be necessary.
The purpose of the army in the North evidently is not defensive but offensive. The Turkish army is not there to protect Turkish Cypriots but to fulfill and agenda (this view was expressed to me by many Turkish Cypriots themselves)
Besides: “The pioneers of peace are the people who refuse to take up arms” – Albert Einstein.

Misrepresentation #9
Quote: WHAT ABOUT PROPERTIES AND MISSING PERSONS?
As a result of the appalling behaviour of the Greek Cypriots many innocent people on both sides have disappeared and have lost their property. Pending a settlement, Turkish Cypriot property in the south is occupied by Greek Cypriots, and vice versa. Turkish Cypriots have accepted that our missing persons were killed, but the Greek Cypriots keep this issue alive for political reasons.
Properties and missing people are human rights issues, yes many of the missing people died but a number of them were taken as prisoners of war by Turkey in 1974.

Misrepresentation #10
Quote: IS THERE A "GOVERNMENT OF CYPRUS?" - No.
Well…

Misrepresentation #11
Quote: WHAT ARE THE PROSPECTS FOR AN AGREED SETTLEMENT?
The UN started a new round of talks in 1999, but the prospects are not good. In 1986 the Turkish Cypriots accepted the UN proposals, which both Britain and the UN described as a good basis for settlement. They were rejected by the Greek Cypriots. Again, in 1992 the Turkish Cypriots accepted the UN plan but it has become clear that the Greek Cypriots will agree to nothing which would prevent them gaining domination over the whole island at some time in the future. The Turkish Cypriots will not of course agree to anything which would leave that possibility open. We have proposed a Confederal structure for the future.
Turkish Cypriots rejected all past proposals with the exception of Anan plan.

Misrepresentation #12
Quote: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE STATUS QUO?
There is nothing unjust or unreasonable in two separate states in Cyprus, as it is abundantly clear that the two peoples cannot for the foreseeable future live together.
There is nothing unjust with ethnic cleansing, nothing unjust with stealing properties, nothing unjust with destroying cultural heritage….nothing unjust with the powerful imposing its will against the human rights of the weak.

AND MAY THE HISTORY WAR BE CONTINUED



.

[stavrizatz]

ps
Quote: SHOULD CYPRUS JOIN THE EU?

Neither the Greek Cypriots nor the Turkish Cypriots have any right alone to commit the island to membership of the EU. This can only be done by a joint application after a settlement, which we would welcome. Until a joint application is made, Britain would be in breach of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee if it failed to veto the unilateral application made by the Greek Cypriots.

The same person argues the above when earlier said that the 1960 constitution was destroyed in 1963 :?: :?

[Khan]

Stavriatz,

Quote: I don’t really want to comment further on this as the lies are obvious.

What lies are you referring to? That Turkish Cypriots endured suffering?

Quote: Greek culture was assimilated on the island for more than 3000 years as opposed to 436 years of Turkish.

So what? What if you found out you actually have more Arab, Persian, Venetian and Ottoman blood in you than Greek? This idea that the Greek Cypriot's have been around for 3,000 years and it should be used as an argument for a political solution in the 20th century is simply ridicolous.

Quote: Turkish Cypriots withdraw from their positions; they were not forced by Greek Cypriots.

I think you'll find it was a combination of voluntary and forced withdrawal.

Quote: ‘Rescue us’ from what? At the time that the conflict was clearly between Greek Cypriots and Greek Cypriots.

Rescue us from Ionnadies, who said he wanted to eradicate Turks from the island, rescue us from Sampson, who said he wanted to "wipe the stench of Turks away." If any such person is made head of state, a known murderer, then I believe Turkey had a reasonable ground to intervene.

Quote:
The purpose of the army in the North evidently is not defensive but offensive. The Turkish army is not there to protect Turkish Cypriots but to fulfill and agenda (this view was expressed to me by many Turkish Cypriots themselves)

Perhaps you can tell me then, when a Turkish soldier has ever crossed the Green line and launched offensive operations in the 30 years they have been here?

Quote: Turkish Cypriots rejected all past proposals with the exception of Anan plan.

No they did not. There has only ever been one referendum on the island and we know who rejected that.

[Mete]

Khan wrote:
So what? What if you found out you actually have more Arab, Persian, Venetian and Ottoman blood in you than Greek? This idea that the Greek Cypriot's have been around for 3,000 years and it should be used as an argument for a political solution in the 20th century is simply ridicolous.

I agree, Khan. This idiotic argument is used by many Greek Cypriots as if it has any relevance to the political problems of today or as if Turkish Cypriots should have any less rights because they have been on the island 400+ years and not 3000 years.

[Get Real!]

Mete and Khan...
Quote: I agree, Khan. This idiotic argument is used by many Greek Cypriots as if it has any relevance to the political problems of today...

You'll find that these issues only arise when the indigenousness of the people of Cyprus is foolishly questioned.

As if Cyprus was vacant until 1571 when Turks suddenly invaded who found Cypriot cities, conveniently built overnight by undetermined people, ready for the taking!