www.talkcyprus.org

[s300]

Personally I feel that this a small but important step as Tpap has never suggested anything in form of a solution in the past.I've only read about this in the Turkish Nationalist press. Apparently Germany the new EU presidency was in on the game. I'm interested how far this will get in the UK given the poms' ongoing policy of divide & conquer to maintain pommy bases in Cyprus.

Obviously trade through Limassol will not suit Turkish extremists who want to work towards two separate states and hark on about the need to remove the UN imposed embargo against the occupied areas a stepping stone to legalizing /institutionalizing Taksim.

Genuine Turkish Cypriot Business people who want to export their goods to EU countries need to seize this as a positive step.

The EU Courts would review any genuine problems Turkish Cypriot exporters have in dealing with the port authorities of the Republic of Cyprus.

[erolz]

s300 wrote: I'm interested how far this will get in the UK given the poms' ongoing policy of divide & conquer to maintain pommy bases in Cyprus.

This is such nonsense. The British bases are secure and have been since the 60's agreements were signed. There is no legal way that the Republic of Cyprus can 'remove' these bases. Of course they could try the 'old' argument - we signed the agreements under duress, so we can ignore those parts we unilaterally do not like whilst insisting on the legal validity of those parts we do. Of course no Greek Cypriot leadership had ever been stupid enough to try such an argument and approach against the UK , cause it knows it would get no where with it - not in any court and not by force. Such an argument and approach was for use against Turkish Cypriot community. The UK does not need cyprus to be divided to secure its bases. If anything instability in Cyprus threatens the bases not makes them more secure. As far as the UK has an agenda today it is to support Turkish EU accession because it believes that a reforming Turkey brought into the EU fold is good for the UK, the EU the region and the world. The idea that they want to keep Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot at each others throats in order to secure their already secure bases in Cyprus is ludicrous imho.

s300 wrote:
Obviously trade through Limassol will not suit Turkish extremists who want to work towards two separate states and hark on about the need to remove the UN imposed embargo against the occupied areas a stepping stone to legalizing /institutionalizing Taksim.

Er this offer is nothing we do not already have. We can trade to the rest of the EU and world via the green line , as long as we are prepared to accept that the Republic of Cyprus controls such and authorises such. The fact is most Turkish Cypriot do not want to accept such , for they do not feel (with very good reason) that the Republic of Cyprus as it exists today represents them or their needs as individuals or a community. Not wanting to be blackmailed into accepting an all Greek Cypriot administration, that has never been concerned with Turkish Cypriot welfare and has at times launched violent and illegal attacks against the Turkish Cypriot community, is not the perspective of 'turkish extremists' bent on maintaining partition, but is in fact the perspective of many ordinary Turkish Cypriot that want a solution but not if that solution means accepting the Republic of Cyprus as it exits today, giving up all their rights under the agreed constitution that were taken from them. This is no 'offer' from TP at all. It is just the same old reheated attempts to bypass having to actually negotiate a settlement at all.

s300 wrote:
Genuine Turkish Cypriot Business people who want to export their goods to EU countries need to seize this as a positive step.

Any Turkish Cypriot business people who want to export their goods to the EU AND are prepared to accept that in order to do so they have to accept that Republic of Cyprus as it exits today as the controlling authority for such export can do so ALREADY. That they can do so already is because the EU made the Republic of Cyprus do this and doing it in line with current Greek Cypriot leaderships objectives of trying to force Turkish Cypriot into accepting the Republic of Cyprus as their valid government, thus bypassing the need to negotiate a settlement. So whats new with this offer? Exactly nothing as far as I can see ?

s300 wrote:
The EU Courts would review any genuine problems Turkish Cypriot exporters have in dealing with the port authorities of the Republic of Cyprus.

The EU courts already have such jurisdiction. So whats new?

[Khan]

I can see it being a bumpy ride with the Germans.

[Xenos 2Fan]

Khan wrote: I can see it being a bumpy ride with the Germans.

It ain't gonna be pretty.

[pg]

erolz, you mean that the reason not to accept trading via Limassol is mainly political, and nothing to do with the trade itself, or?

[pg]

double post

[city]

Khan wrote: I can see it being a bumpy ride with the Germans.

sorry, but I had to laugh at this expression..... :D :D

[s300]

Quote: this offer is nothing we do not already have. We can trade to the rest of the EU and world via the green line , as long as we are prepared to accept that the Republic of Cyprus controls such and authorises such

SO why do you keep moaning about "isolation". You basically just admitted that the only reason"direct trade" is being pursued is to legalize the Occupation/ethnic cleansing.

Is someone with no warped political agenda and a genuine desire to do business with the EU going to give a shit if he or she can successfully export his products through port A or port B.

The claim of isolation is a farce.

[Viewpoint]

The Turkish Cypriot exporters would have used the ports in the Greek Cypriot south when the green line regulations came about but the the levels of trade going across is comical and the risk is to high. There is also Greek Cypriot intransigence to buy anything produced in the north for fear of retribution, this has also been evident to the Americans who are trying to encourage trade between the north and south via the Edge program.

The potatoes shipment is a prime example, only last week the head of the Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce gave details of how truck loads of potatoes were examined by EU experts especially flown in to ensure smooth transit, only to find that Greek Cypriot authorities delayed this produce at the border for 5 days creating unnecessary problems thus allowing the produce to go bad. These are the tactics our exporters are up against and they will not risk attempting shipment to and through the south, exposing themselves to the demeaning and bigoted treatment of Greek Cypriot officials who have been given the order to cause as many problems as possible to deter any trade from the north so as to restrict economical growth. The only positive outcome of such Greek Cypriot antics which we Turkish Cypriots are used to from the 1960s is that EU officials are on hand to document for themselves what trade through the Greek Cypriot south really means.

[erolz]

s300 wrote: SO why do you keep moaning about "isolation". You basically just admitted that the only reason"direct trade" is being pursued is to legalize the Occupation/ethnic cleansing.

I admit no such thing. The economic , political and cultural isolation of the Turkish Cypriot is real. It is not total but it is real. The UN recognises this , the EU recognises this , everyone recognises this - except of course people like yourself. That we can end such isolation by giving into the Greek Cypriot aggression and illegalities of 60-74 and accept an all Greek Cypriot administration that sought to impose things on us against our will, against all legality and using violence and force , does not mean that our reluctance to do so means we are seeking to legalise the results of 74. It means that we are seeking a solution to these issues along with those created by the actions of 74, and that if we have supported the international efforts to achieve such a solution , we should not then be punished because of Greek Cypriot intransigence to such efforts. We want a comprehensive solution that address your issues AND ours. You want a piecemeal solution that addresses only your issues and when we refuse such approaches you accuse us of seeking to legalise the results of 74.

s300 wrote:
Is someone with no warped political agenda and a genuine desire to do business with the EU going to give a shit if he or she can successfully export his products through port A or port B.

Is someone with no warped political agenda and a genuine desire to be able to travel to and visit and stay (and even reside) in the north going to give a shit about having to show their ID/passport in order to do so?

s300 wrote:
The claim of isolation is a farce.

It is a farce to you because it does not affect you and it suits your political agenda to perceive it and portray it as a farce. The fact is it is real and accepted by all as real. The Republic of Cyprus has put its signature to an EU document thats states that the agreed EU policy is a determination to end the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community. The real farce is a Republic of Cyprus leadeship signing and agreeing one thing and then pursuing exactly the opposite. Are you going to claim that this signature of the Republic of Cyprus was made 'under duress' and thus the Republic of Cyprus can ignore it at will ?

[depurple]

Erolz can I say one thing mate:
Isolation of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus?
1: Turkey did this by invading Cypurs during the agreed UN cease fire and dividing it:
2: Ask Denktash about the isolation of the so called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus!
This reminds me a lot about China and Taiwan: Taiwan broke away and formed its own country which the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus has tried BUT failed: (If we have failed come to the North and see our failure):
On one hand you want a separate country state or what ever and this is a NO NO by the UN and then say WHY are we isolated:

Make a united Cyprus and then there is no isolation BUT how can you do this after the corruption in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus by Denktash, the Settlers and the POMS and others?
So my Friend it is a catch 22 situation isn't it!
How can a country invade another take 32% of it and turn it in to a separate state or country and then get recognition and non isolation?
Now let me think about that one!
They cant legally BUT keep trying!
OH YES i forgot!
You voted Yes to Annan Plan!
cheers and keep trying to sell a stolen CAR WITH a guarantee from the manufacturer!

[erolz]

Look we can still be unrecognised as a state, and still be looking for a comprehensive solution and not be as isolated as we are. The ofical UN and EU lines are that reducing Turkish Cypriot isolation aids the ptotential for future reunification, not hinders it.

I do not want continued partition. I do not want the 'solution' to mean the Turkish Cypriot community just giving in to maximalist Greek Cypriot demands. I think despite the past the reticant party today is the Republic of Cyprus as led by TP and I do not think we and our communitys isolation should be the result of his refusal to settle for anything other than his maximal demands.

The way forward is a comprehensive settlement under the UN. If one party is unwilling to pursue such a solution then the other should not be punished for that reticence.

[depurple]

Erolz can you explain this one to me?
"The official UN and EU lines are that reducing Turkish Cypriot isolation aids the potential for future reunification, not hinders it"
Because I read it as;
Once the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus get recognition OR non isolation WHY should they want unification?
Taiwan would love this as well!
cheers DP

[erolz]

depurple wrote: Erolz can you explain this one to me?
"The official UN and EU lines are that reducing Turkish Cypriot isolation aids the potential for future reunification, not hinders it"
Because I read it as;
Once the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus get recognition OR non isolation WHY should they want unification?
Taiwan would love this as well!
cheers DP

Reducing the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community is NOT the same as international recognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
The rationale of the UN and the EU is that the more economic parity there is between the two communities before a settlement the easier any subsequent reunification will be - for many obvious reasons.

DP you say the Republic of Cyprus has nothing to loose , so why would I not consider the objective of continued efforts of the Republic of Cyprus to ensure the maximal isolation of Turkish Cypriot community (despite them AGREEING a common EU policy to end such isolation) to be to force the Turkish Cypriot community into submission to Greek Cypriot maximal demands ? Clearly what the Republic of Cyprus and all cypriots have to loose by such hard line attitudes is the best ever chance for a solution we have ever had. Yet your view appears to be the Republic of Cyprus should make no compromise, make no moves to agree a comprehensive settlement under UN and do nothing except try and force submission on the Turkish Cypriot community - because they (Republic of Cyprus) have nothing to loose.

Ask yourself what the objective of continued Republic of Cyprus efforts to ensure maximal isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community really is? Is it to aid the brokering of a fair balanced solution based on mutual compromise of both parties under UN auspices? Or is it to try and force the Turkish Cypriot community into submission?

The justification for past isolation (not recognition but isolation - recognition was never on the cards) of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was that it (and Turkey) was not genuinely seeking a solution. That is no longer the case. It is the Republic of Cyprus that is avoiding a comprehensive solution - for such involves compromise and they are (unrealistically) seeking a solution that requires no such compromise on their part, under a false belief that they have 'nothihg to loose' as you put it and that EU entry will allow them to force such a solution on the Turkish Cypriot community as they tried in the past to force enosis on it against its will. The continued isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community in such an environment is no longer justified - and this is why both the UN and the EU official policy is to seek to reduce the isolation of the Turkish Cypriot community (not recognise the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus but reduce the Turkish Cypriot communities isolation). Again I reiterate it is the agreed EU policy - and one that the Republic of Cyprus has put its signature to - for all that counts for anything!

[pg]

I think it should be clear that the isolation is there because Turkey broke all the rules in 1974 - and all years after that:

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/380-600056?OpenDocument

In addition, in order to normalize relations between the Turkish Cypriot community and the rest of the world it would be expected that the Turkish Cypriot community normalizes its handling of, for example, the property rights of civilians (Protected Persons).

In short, as long as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus behavior does not respect all Cypriot civilians, it will most likely not be treated as other recognized not recognized states.