www.talkcyprus.org

[s300]

If Turkey is told to pack up and go home by the EU will it be so bad for Cyprus?

I read that some commentator believed that the failure or at least set back in Turkish EU accession would be an "own goal" for Cyprus.

For most Internally displaced Kyrenians nothing serious is really being proposed. Life in exile will go just as it has for the last 32 years and just as it would have under the Annan Plan or Finnish Plan. Seriously ...Big Deal! Maybe Cyprus will gain more bargaining power as Turkey will see that the ongoing ethnic cleansing & illiegal military occupation has consequences.

Didn't some former British PM say something like Cyprus will be an albatross aroubd Turkey's neck for centuries.

Provide a serious proposal or remain like Borat's Kazakhstan.



[/i]

[Xenos 2Fan]

s300 wrote: If Turkey is told to pack up and go home by the EU will it be so bad for Cyprus?

I read that some commentator believed that the failure or at least set back in Turkish EU accession would be an "own goal" for Cyprus.

For most Internally displaced Kyrenians nothing serious is really being proposed. Life in exile will go just as it has for the last 32 years and just as it would have under the Annan Plan or Finnish Plan. Seriously ...Big Deal! Maybe Cyprus will gain more bargaining power as Turkey will see that the ongoing ethnic cleansing & illiegal military occupation has consequences.

Didn't some former British PM say something like Cyprus will be an albatross aroubd Turkey's neck for centuries.

Provide a serious proposal or remain like Borat's Kazakhstan.



[/i]

I beg to differ. If Tpap does not get off his tail and do something constructive the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will become the albatross around the neck of Republic of Cyprus.

The same could be said about the south. How about you guys provide a workable plan instead of tossing the hot potato back in our field.

....And do not worry. Turkey will not be another Khazakstan. But thanks for the well wishes.

[Xenos 2Fan]

s300 wrote:

Didn't some former British PM say something like Cyprus will be an albatross aroubd Turkey's neck for centuries?



[/i]

Just a footnote..

I think there were also some EU MP's who said that it was a mistake to allow Cyprus into the union without a resolution on the island. Now you got an ex-terrorist that leads a country of roughly 800000 who can play with the aspirations of roughly 80 million. I would say "well done" over all.

[stavrizatz]

Quote: I think there were also some EU MP's who said that it was a mistake to allow Cyprus into the union without a resolution on the island. Now you got an ex-terrorist that leads a country of roughly 800000 who can play with the aspirations of roughly 80 million. I would say "well done" over all.
You better open a dictionary and find the definition of terrorist and then condemn people as terrorists.

Turkey in not even a European country not geographically and not demographically so why have EU ambitions I don’t know. You can say the same for Cyprus that geographically is not part of Europe either but at least its Greekness allows it to be European. I don’t think any EU country wants Turkey to join EU but Turkey’s hopes rely on American pressure imo.

[cypezokyli]

allow me to say , that it is absurd to claim that our greekness allows us to be european !!!

[100%cypriot]

Quote: Didn't some former British PM say something like Cyprus will be an albatross aroubd Turkey's neck for centuries.


That same PM admitted that he made an incorrect statement some years later :wink:

[100%cypriot]

I think he said something like " Today cyprus is prisoner to the Turkish Army but Tomorrow the Turkish Army will be prisoner to Cyprus "

[100%cypriot]

They don't look much like prisoners to me

[brother]

stavrizatz wrote: Quote: I think there were also some EU MP's who said that it was a mistake to allow Cyprus into the union without a resolution on the island. Now you got an ex-terrorist that leads a country of roughly 800000 who can play with the aspirations of roughly 80 million. I would say "well done" over all.
You better open a dictionary and find the definition of terrorist and then condemn people as terrorists.

Turkey in not even a European country not geographically and not demographically so why have EU ambitions I don’t know. You can say the same for Cyprus that geographically is not part of Europe either but at least its Greekness allows it to be European. I don’t think any EU country wants Turkey to join EU but Turkey’s hopes rely on American pressure imo.

Terrorisit is a definition given to a person that participated in an illegal organisation that was involved in terrorising, bombing and ultimately killing innocent people to further its ambitions which i believe....nay...i know that Tpap was a member off hence he is and always will be a Terrorist turned leader.

[pg]

In general I think Turkey believes that if it gives up on the EU accession, it is off the hook with regards to Cyprus. I believe it is not that simple.

Turkey still needs the customs union.

[brother]

pg wrote: In general I think Turkey believes that if it gives up on the EU accession, it is off the hook with regards to Cyprus. I believe it is not that simple.

Turkey still needs the customs union.

Agreed and ultimately Turkey will honour it but only when it suits her agenda imo.

[stavrizatz]

Quote: Terrorisit is a definition given to a person that participated in an illegal organisation that was involved in terrorising, bombing and ultimately killing innocent people to further its ambitions which i believe....nay.
Brother, honestly I am wondering where you found that definition!!! Actually there is lack of agreement in defining terrorism and in various occasions is manipulated by governments in order to make a meaning that suits its interests. Eg US department of defense use the definition Quote: the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives." For more about terrorism definitions look at:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html
In all the definitions there are two main elements: 1. Terrorissing / killing innocent people, 2. The intention is not the distruction of the initial target directly but to influense government and achieve political ideological objectives. The targets of EOKA were not innocent people, EOKA didn't have human targets despite the fact that innocent people were killed. EOKA was a liberation struggle and we should separate fighting against colonial powers and terrorism. It seems that you are stuck with the idea that EOKA were terrorists and you cannot get over it! Conclusion: Tpap was not ex-terrorist.

[brother]

stavrizatz wrote: Quote: Terrorisit is a definition given to a person that participated in an illegal organisation that was involved in terrorising, bombing and ultimately killing innocent people to further its ambitions which i believe....nay.
Brother, honestly I am wondering where you found that definition!!! Actually there is lack of agreement in defining terrorism and in various occasions is manipulated by governments in order to make a meaning that suits its interests. Eg US department of defense use the definition Quote: the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives." For more about terrorism definitions look at:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html
In all the definitions there are two main elements: 1. Terrorissing / killing innocent people, 2. The intention is not the distruction of the initial target directly but to influense government and achieve political ideological objectives. The targets of EOKA were not innocent people, EOKA didn't have human targets despite the fact that innocent people were killed. EOKA was a liberation struggle and we should separate fighting against colonial powers and terrorism. It seems that you are stuck with the idea that EOKA were terrorists and you cannot get over it! Conclusion: Tpap was not ex-terrorist.


EOKA was deemed and accepted by international bodies as a terrorist organisation and Tpap was a member of this terrorist organisation and thus a terrorist, there is no grey area on this one.

The way you have summarised it above and with that logic then Hamas, Hezbollah and the Taliban are freedom fighters too trying to get rid of the colonisers/invaders and hence when they bomb civilian targets (like EOKA did many times) they should not be seen as terrorists.

[stavrizatz]

Quote: The way you have summarised it above and with that logic then Hamas, Hezbollah and the Taliban are freedom fighters too trying to get rid of the colonisers/invaders and hence when they bomb civilian targets (like EOKA did many times) they should not be seen as terrorists.

Not true, comparison with Hamas, Taliban and Hezbollah is invalid because these use civilian target. EOKA used gaurilla warfare just like in many revolution. EOKA was a revolution and if you call EOKA, Makarios and Tpap terrorists then we can call Gandhi, Che Guevara, Nelson Mandela and others famous revolutionaries as terrorist. EOKA and other liberation struggles against UK were labeled as terrosist orgs. Don't forget that UK was using this propaganda to justify its action. UK called aboriginies animals so as to be legal to kill them. So we cannot go by UK definition but by the generally accepted definition.

[erolz]

stavrizatz wrote: The targets of EOKA were not innocent people, EOKA didn't have human targets despite the fact that innocent people were killed.

You need to get a more accurate history of that time as clearly your current one is deficent. EOKA targeted 'installations' AND they targeted individuals - many of who were essentially innocent (and many of whom were Greek Cypriot who's murder was nothing to do with 'liberation' of Cyprus but with establishing and maintaining EOKA power through fear).

Try these videos here

http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

and particularly part two of the first documentary at about 1.40 mins in , where the ex EOKA man explains 'of course we shot people in the back, we were'nt going to fight them head on as they had all the advantages' - and then come back and tell me that EOKA did not have human targets !

stavrizatz wrote:
EOKA was a liberation struggle and we should separate fighting against colonial powers and terrorism. It seems that you are stuck with the idea that EOKA were terrorists and you cannot get over it! Conclusion: Tpap was not ex-terrorist.

Here we go again :(

EOKA was not a struggle for the 'liberation' of Cyprus. The stated goal and aim of those that lead EOKA was the changing of colonial power from Britain to Greece. The same people that ran EOKA before 60 were still pursuing this aim after Cyprus had been liberated in 60. They were still using fear intimidation violence and murder and the threat of it after 1960 as they used it before 60 - and in the same cause - ENOSIS.

Of course EOKA were a terrorist organisation. Of course many within EOKA were terrorist. If you use illegal violence fear and intimidation to pursue a political goal your are a terrorist. There should be no discussion or argument about that. You may argue that in certain situations resorting to terrorism is justified - but to deny that people that used terror and fear and illegal violence in pursuit of their political aims are not terrorist is just ridiculous imho. So before you ask yes the ANC was a terrorist organisation - as far as it used terror fear intimidation and violence to pursue political aims. Was the resort to this terrorism justified in the case of south africa? Imho no it was not . Was it justified in Cyprus -definitely not imho. What is indisputable imho is that EOKA was a terrorist organisation.

Let me say (once again) that I understand and know that not everyone within EOKA was 'evil'. That many were honorable and brave individuals that made great personal sacrifices in the pursuit of what they believed was right (as many within TMT did likewise). However this does not change the FACT that EOKA was a terrorist orgnaisation and it was lead by a vicious facist thug that saw illegal execution of those that opposed him as a valid and justified means of achieving their aims