www.talkcyprus.org

[Birkibrisli]

I just read a very sad column by Hurriyet writer Bekir Coskun...
The writer seems to have lost all hope that Turkey will ever be admitted to the EU.Here are some of his reasons for his despair.It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Turkey and Turkish society.So if you are very sensitive to that you might like to stop reading now:


Coskun's Turkey:

A lawless country where democracy has not blossomed;

an economy based not on Production but hit_and_run;

full of unskilled and unemployed masses;

no population or birth control plans;

a million neglected, unschooled children;

Bribery,Nepotism,Pillage: 3 primary driving forces for state affairs;

a stupid mentality that brings reactionaries to power in order to advance Western values (plans to have all female parks,multiple marriages,alcohol prohibition,undoing of secularism etc);

an army of mollahs (imams) to run state departments,together with their Iranesque family photographs...to take us towards Europe...

Coskun's sad conclusion: goodbye to hopes of joining the EU...

What do you think?Is Bekir Coskun being too harsh on his country???

[alexISS]

Birkibrisli wrote: What do you think?Is Bekir Coskun being too harsh on his country???

Yes he is. The reason is that this article is meant to be read by the people of Turkey, not foreigners. "Internal" critiscism is, and should always be, harsher than normal. Similar articles are written all the time in Greek press, that doesn't mean that Greece really is a third world country as many Greek columnists often say

[zan]

Quote: Coskun's Turkey:

A lawless country where democracy has not blossomed;

an economy based not on Production but hit_and_run;

full of unskilled and unemployed masses;

no population or birth control plans;

a million neglected, unschooled children;

Bribery,Nepotism,Pillage: 3 primary driving forces for state affairs;

a stupid mentality that brings reactionaries to power in order to advance Western values (plans to have all female parks,multiple marriages,alcohol prohibition,undoing of secularism etc);

an army of mollahs (imams) to run state departments,together with their Iranesque family photographs...to take us towards Europe...

Coskun's sad conclusion: goodbye to hopes of joining the EU...


I will not use Greece as a comparison but UK and will also add that I am not going to defend these faults but put them in perspective. Coskuns comments show that he is a hopeless romantic as are most people when they actually stop to look at the country they live in and wish for it to become a utopia.


The so called democracy in the UK is very quickly beginning to turn in on its’ self. Rather than blossoming it seems to be wilting. This is something that is not only happening nationally but at a local level as well. There has been a law passed that will allow local councils to come into your home and photograph every room and space there in order to TAX you properly. Not only things they think you should be paying tax on already but also other new things like double-glazing and having a patio. You work to improve your home and they see it as a means to raise revenue. Democracy or big brother type dictatorship.



Economy based on production. What production. The entire production industry disappeared years ago. The only thing that the UK has to boast about any more is its cottage industries. The UK has now become a service provider.


(There is no need to even change the next point).
Quote: Full of unskilled and unemployed masses;
The skills have to be imported from Eastern Europe in the guise of illegal immigration. In my trade, which is of the building game and I am an electrician, apprenticeships were stopped by Margaret Thatchers regime. I was one of the ones that suffered from that policy in the seventies and one of the last. Now they try to solve it by social engineering.

Why would population limitations be of utmost urgency. This is some thing I don’t really understand.

The UK has some of the worse schools in Europe at the lower end. The inner city schools are a complete mess. There will be more than a million unskilled children coming out of these schools. Just to be able to provide places for children in schools is not enough to take them out of the real statistics.


I can say nothing to cancel out the bribery in Turkish politics except for you to think how governments such as the USA conducts its’ international business and the ludicrous amounts of money they offered Turkey in the fight against Iraq. Corruption and coercion seem only a paper width apart. Having said all of that and constantly reading it in the British news papers in such things as cash for peerages and other corrupt practices and having worked with local authorities for over 30 years to see low level corruption, I have to take this with a pinch of salt.


Quote: a stupid mentality that brings reactionaries to power in order to advance Western values (plans to have all female parks,multiple marriages,alcohol prohibition,undoing of secularism etc);

I need more information on this one?

Quote: an army of mollahs (imams) to run state departments,together with their Iranesque family photographs...to take us towards Europe...

Again with this one I do not quite get it. Is he just plainly against the way they dress, the democratic power they hold or their inability to adapt to the demands of Europe. All very xenophobic if you ask me. Christianity is at the very heart of Europe but Islam can never change? A poor interpretation of Islam and sensationalist comments. There again, he is a reporter.


If the EU cannot accommodate and legislate for the inclusion of an Islamic state and needs solely for this state to conform to Christianity then it is not a case of goodbye to hopes of joining the EU but a case of not fitting into the Christian club. Segregation is the issue here. If it is only open to whites then black men need not apply. It is highly insulting to take a religion and place it at a disadvantage just because it is different to yours.

[Birkibrisli]

Hi,Zan...
Thank you for the trouble to reply.
I agree that Bekir Coskun and most of the columnists at Hurriyet have a pink-shaded sight of the West.But their concerns are very real.They just despair when they see the apparently conflicting political and ideological positions taken by the AKP government in most cases.
I was in Turkey not so long ago and experienced some of these complaints first hand.The irony is that they have a religiously inspired government wanting to join what is essentially a Christian club,but encouraging practices which are very threatening to the West.The problem essentially is one of image at this stage,but that is not for lack of trying on behalf of the government.The infiltration of all government departments and instrumentalities at the top level by people who are only trained as "imams" at religious schools (Imam Hatip) is very worying for people like Coskun.My own family in Turkey share most of these concerns,by the way.

The AKP government is doing whatever they can to introduce Islamic values in all aspects of life,from separate parks and beaches for men and women to discriminating against people in employment for their religious values as exhibited by their dress code and attendance to prayers and fasting etc.Many of the AKP members of parliament have more than one wife (one official plus other's on religious marriages),and their attitude to women leave a lot to be desired.Politics have always been very corrupt in Turkey,but this is reaching new hights apparently.Recently 4 government ministers were photographed attending a funeral in company of an Islamic businessman who is accused of swindling people in Mosques all over Europe of over 1 Billion dollars.Interpol has a warrant for the man's arrest but he seems to be totally free to do what he likes in Turkey with the blessing of government ministers.

Coskun and his friends are particularly worried about the attempts to undermine the secular nature of the Republic.No lesser figure than the president of the Parliament has openly questioned the definition of "secularism" and hinted that the time has come for a new definition and a different application.All this while they are going through the motions of introducing more democratic measures to improve freedom of speech,association,and human rights requirements.

I was very disturbed to see what is happening to the environment and other natural and historical treasures.They are building hotels motels and holiday villages on every available piece of land on the West and South coast,without any planning or environmental considerations.I heard a report while i was there which left me totally dumbfounded. I know this is an extreme example but will give you an idea what I mean.Apparently there was a little town in central Anatolia where people were complaining about the noise birds make,and their droppings on their cars in the main street.The council came up with a brilliant solution:They cut down every one of the hundred year old trees in the street...This is not a joke!

Many people are just shaking their heads,and trying to reconcile the actions of this government and its push for EU membership.
It gives me no pleasure to write all this.And I think you know that.

[cypezokyli]

a prof. here who is specialist on turkey and the middle east , places the question the other way round.
even though his position is that turkey CAN enter the EU, he asks the question IF turkey wants to enter the EU?
and in order to answer that question one should distinguish the different parts of the turkish society and see what they have to gain / loose from a possible EU membership.
dont ask me for the answer... i dont have it yet :wink:

[pg]

Does Russia want to enter the EU?

Most likely not, even though Russia in many ways, culturally and historically is at least as European as many EU members of today.

At the same time I do expect that the EU and Russia will be the best of friends in the medium/long term.

As far as I can understand Turkey should have about the same reasons as Russia not to join the EU... Basically that its circumstances in general are too different, so that it does not really make sense to give away a large part of its sovereignty to "Brussels".

The EU accession process is most likely a great exercise, and the Turkish people will for sure benefit from it in the long run. It could be used as a tool for improvement, however, the 'problem' is that change means change..., and groups with power today will have less power after the change. These groups will not let go of it, and they can use what ever warped arguments to block the change.

Going back to Cyprus, I wish the Turkish Cypriot took time to look after its own house, and I suspect they would realize that all islanders has a common future, most likely not always intervened with the mainlands.
Just as I am happy whenever there is open disagreementt between the Republic of Cyprus and Athens, I hope such signs of health will appear also 'on the other side'.

[stavrizatz]

Quote: Just as I am happy whenever there is open disagreementt between the Republic of Cyprus and Athens, I hope such signs of health will appear also 'on the other side'

What do you mean by that?

[pg]

stavrizatz wrote: Quote: Just as I am happy whenever there is open disagreementt between the Republic of Cyprus and Athens, I hope such signs of health will appear also 'on the other side'

What do you mean by that?

I mean that most of the Cyprus Problem is imported... If all (both) kinds of Cypriot could learn to stand on their own feet we would get quite far. Basically, it is time to cut the biblical cord...

[s300]

Constructive criticism and scrutiny of a country is mandatory for democracy even if it is external/internal or even from your "enemies".

Believe it or not the the republic of Cyprus had to cop alot before it was allowed into the EU. The Embargoed areas did not go through this and perhaps this is the reason why many Turkish Cypriots feel victimised by the EU accession process.

Its like joining a college organisation where you are nominated as a pledge and you have go through a series of challenges to prove yourcommitment to the organisation or even the stone cutters in the simpsons where you have to endure the "paddling of the ass".

What I am saying is that Turkey should not get defensive every time the EU suggests it makes a reform or proposal for modernisation.

It is also in Turkey's interest to be able to absorb and address criticisms regardless of EU accession. Look at Germany which has a history of genocide like Turkey and yet it was able to undergo a catharsis period to deal with its Nazi past. Turkey definitely needs to go through something similar.

[100%cypriot]

just like the turkish and greek cypriots

[Birkibrisli]

I agree that the Cypriots must go through a period of open self examination and acceptance of the horrible crimes they(we) have committed on each other.It frustrates me no end that it always comes down to one side saying "but the other side did worse things/more crimes etc". As if that is an excuse or helps anything.There are murderers from EOKA and TMT still walking around (albeit some on crutches!) with complete immunity from prosecution.Denials,denials,denials.

Lets remember that unless we say "I did a terrible thing,I am very sorry" the other side cannot give us their forgiveness...

If we wait for Turkey to get her house in order we will be waiting forever.
The Erdogan government has no intention of putting into practise any of the reforms they had to introduce to apeace the EU.By its evolution,the AKP is an East looking party.They are not serious or honest in their wish to join the EU in any case.The Greek and Turkish Cypriots,we must take the bull by the horn and do our own dirty work(!) to join the ranks of human beings...

[100%cypriot]

Birkibrisli wrote: I agree that the Cypriots must go through a period of open self examination and acceptance of the horrible crimes they(we) have committed on each other.It frustrates me no end that it always comes down to one side saying "but the other side did worse things/more crimes etc". As if that is an excuse or helps anything.There are murderers from EOKA and TMT still walking around (albeit some on crutches!) with complete immunity from prosecution.Denials,denials,denials.

Lets remember that unless we say "I did a terrible thing,I am very sorry" the other side cannot give us their forgiveness...

If we wait for Turkey to get her house in order we will be waiting forever.
The Erdogan government has no intention of putting into practise any of the reforms they had to introduce to apeace the EU.By its evolution,the AKP is an East looking party.They are not serious or honest in their wish to join the EU in any case.The Greek and Turkish Cypriots,we must take the bull by the horn and do our own dirty work(!) to join the ranks of human beings...

your theory is interesting
:wink:

[RudeGal]

Maybe the writer was having a 'Borat' moment, created an inverted look at what the EU perceives Turkey to be full of and taking the big pee? :lol:

Yes, much is wrong in Turkish public and private life, but no more than any other country. There are some ills common to all societies (e.g. corruption) and those unique to Turkey via its AKP ruling regime are not as prevalent as the author or Birkibrisli suggest (my own experience of Turkey is that it is thriving, having some id issues, but the wave of progress is unstoppable and Western values are deeply rooted in many urbanites at least). Yes, AKP is trying to influence direction and as a Govt it has the means to do its dirty work, but that's what the Turkish military is there for :wink: And with Buyukyanit at the helm (major Ataturk nationalist), I'm sure he'd step in if it was as bad as indicated above...

It could go down that route, but don't believe the hype (or am I the one who's blinkered?)

[SP]

A surprising source of support for Turkey

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20061030&hn=37768

Quote: The Greek Cypriot leader noted that membership talks might be interrupted until Turkey has fulfilled its obligations or suspended on conditions to be determined by the EU; but he also stressed that engagement with Turkey should continue even in the case of suspension.

The opening of Turkish sea and air ports to Greek Cypriots is being demanded not only by them, but also by the EU, Papadopoulos asserted. The port issue was not a priority for them he said, instead, the resolution of the Cyprus issue was what matters most.

I'm confused :shock:

[Birkibrisli]

But we musn't depend on the Military to keep Turkey on the slow march towards the Western civilisation.I am not a great fan of what is happening in most western countries and the USA (rampant capitalism,greed and selfishness,consume till you drop mentality,a the aparent lack of compasion for the underdog etc) but I would like the nation I have an ethnic affinity with to be more open and tolerant and democratic etc.

The last two military coups in Turkey were a disaster for democracy and human rights,let alone the economy,and the next one would only be much worse...Turkish people must learn to become less insular,more openminded,and cherish their freedoms and liverty for their own sake,not because it is required by the EU.

It would also be nice if they paid some attention to nature and the environment,and appreciate the beautiful geography they have been blessed with. I am afaid the only thing the Turkish capitalism has adopted from the west is the profit_at_all_cost aspect.Capitalist principles and ethics have completely bypassed them,which is not entirely their fault of course as those ethics have almost disappeared from the cradle of capitalism as well.

I'd like to think that Turkish people would refuse to go back to an archaic system based on what it says in a book written more than 1300 years ago,and interpreted differently by different people,simply because they have evolved enough in logic,morals and spirit to see the pitfalls.Not because they are afraid the military will step in and force them away at gunpoint... :cry: :cry: