www.talkcyprus.org

Birkibrisli · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 1409 Location: Australia

SP wrote: Oops, sorry Birkibrisli

I re-read your post and it occurred to me you may have been being sarcastic.

:oops:

:D Cheers,SP

Dream_Merchant · Joined: 19 Jun 2006 Posts: 422 Location: Limassol

Mete wrote: I really do not see how Armenian genocide is at all related to Turkey's EU membership. Social, economic reforms, I'm all for it. Solution to Cyprus problem, I'm all for it but how the hell that something happenned 90 years ago is relevant to Turkey's EU membership.

Directly it would appear nothing. But on a deeper level it means that Turkey has to reconcile with itself its own past, particularly the unpleasant and purposefuly ignored parts. This form of self-recociliation is an ethical stepping stone, and an important one, for modern Turkey to be recognised for what it would like to be, a country which champions the European values.

sophisticatedbeggar · Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 71 Location: Athens, Greece

depurple wrote: Did this surprise anyone: NOT ME!
I have been saying this for years: Being part of the EU MEANS cleaning up the past: Or any doubts with the past:
METE:
It all has to do with saying SORRY: I just hope they also do this with the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot one day:
What I would really like is getting these clowns to go the same!!!!!!
Greece
Turkey
Britain
The USA
Russia
to say SORRY to the poor Cypriots who they have manipulated for so many years and then sat back and reaped in all the benefits:
cheers

It would be nice if you avoided words like 'clowns' or at least be more specific when you criticize. Personally (as a 28 y.o. female Greek) I feel your pain but I don't feel responsible for any of my fellow Cypriots (Greek or Turkish) misfortunes... It's the politicians that screwed up big time (mostly yours, -Makarios anyone?- and some of ours) but me and the average Greek, sorry "kalamara" as you enjoy calling us, have nothing to do with this...

Also it would be nice if you slowed down with your constant 'reproach' about Turks and Greeks. I get the impression when I read your messages that all we (Greeks and Turks) do is wrong and Cypriots (mostly Greek of course) are always right... Have you talked to a psychiatrist about this? :shock:

Issy1956 · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 10

Sophisticatedbeggar,
You are quite right-we Cypriots are largely the authors of our own misfortunes (in 80:20 ratio ofcourse).
As far as apologising for the past goes did France apologise for Algeria, Italy for Ethiopia, Belgium for the Congo, Portugal for Angola, Greece for invading Turkey in 1922, or even for the 74 Cyprus coup etc etc etc or is this condition only for Turkey?
Please explain

Cyprus rules! · Joined: 11 Jun 2006 Posts: 668

sophisticatedbeggar wrote: depurple wrote: Did this surprise anyone: NOT ME!
I have been saying this for years: Being part of the EU MEANS cleaning up the past: Or any doubts with the past:
METE:
It all has to do with saying SORRY: I just hope they also do this with the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot one day:
What I would really like is getting these clowns to go the same!!!!!!
Greece
Turkey
Britain
The USA
Russia
to say SORRY to the poor Cypriots who they have manipulated for so many years and then sat back and reaped in all the benefits:
cheers

It would be nice if you avoided words like 'clowns' or at least be more specific when you criticize. Personally (as a 28 y.o. female Greek) I feel your pain but I don't feel responsible for any of my fellow Cypriots (Greek or Turkish) misfortunes... It's the politicians that screwed up big time (mostly yours, -Makarios anyone?- and some of ours) but me and the average Greek, sorry "kalamara" as you enjoy calling us, have nothing to do with this...

Also it would be nice if you slowed down with your constant 'reproach' about Turks and Greeks. I get the impression when I read your messages that all we (Greeks and Turks) do is wrong and Cypriots (mostly Greek of course) are always right... Have you talked to a psychiatrist about this? :shock:

Hi sophisticatedbegger, I Think people don't realize that it was the Junta that caused problems in Cyprus, the Junta that the majority of Greeks opposed completely...I can understand you saying that it was the politicians that 'screwed up', but I still don't understand why people place nearly all the Blame on Makarios's shoulders...I mean the man wasn't perfect, he sure made mistakes, but I don't think he was that bad, well from what I've seen He wasn't...although, again I could be wrong...

Peace! :)

Mete · Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 1150 Location: Boston

Dream Merchant wrote:
Directly it would appear nothing. But on a deeper level it means that Turkey has to reconcile with itself its own past, particularly the unpleasant and purposefuly ignored parts. This form of self-recociliation is an ethical stepping stone, and an important one, for modern Turkey to be recognised for what it would like to be, a country which champions the European values.

As you said, this is an ethical stepping point. EU is a political and economical union. It's not Vatican , at least it doesn't claim to be. Certain economic and political reforms were asked from Turkey in order to join to the EU and Turkey should perform those duties as outlined. Only condition for Turkey to join to the EU should be these requirements outlined before and nothing else. Something that happenned 90 or so more years ago in an empire that preceded Turkey will not make today's Turkey less European once Turkey fulfills its duties.

If you still don't agree, then we should ask the French to apologize Algerians, British apologize to its former colonies, Spanish apologize to Incas and Mayas, and the list goes on...

Dream_Merchant · Joined: 19 Jun 2006 Posts: 422 Location: Limassol

Mete wrote: Dream Merchant wrote:
Directly it would appear nothing. But on a deeper level it means that Turkey has to reconcile with itself its own past, particularly the unpleasant and purposefuly ignored parts. This form of self-recociliation is an ethical stepping stone, and an important one, for modern Turkey to be recognised for what it would like to be, a country which champions the European values.

As you said, this is an ethical stepping point. EU is a political and economical union. It's not Vatican , at least it doesn't claim to be. Certain economic and political reforms were asked from Turkey in order to join to the EU and Turkey should perform those duties as outlined. Only condition for Turkey to join to the EU should be these requirements outlined before and nothing else.

This is EXACTLY the thing which I fear from Turkey the most.

The EU is not the Vatican and it is not Mecca. The EU is the EU. But the EU is as much defined by the treaties and agreements that are written on paper as the spirit of cooperation and humanity which sets its goals.

Yes, the entry requirements are political, economical and social. The armenian genocide is neither ( although one could argue that in Turkey this sort of propagandist brainwashing is a social disease ) and hence it is understandable why there was no such clause in the text. However Turkey, and I stress this point, if it wants to be regarded as an upholder of European values, is obliged to clean also its ethical house, even though it is not required to.

But I fear the problem is much deeper than this. Turkey has no intention of being a European country. It only wants the benefits of being an EU member. This form of bazaaring has always been Turkish foreign policy and will continue to be so. Turkey wants to join the EU so it can do its dirty work, unfettered by anyone with giving as little as it can. And yes, on the paper it can do so because the EU on paper is defined by its treaties and aggreements. But is this the goal and ideal of the EU? To be a beaurocratic syndicate?

I don't think so. And as long as Turkey differs from this goal, I don't see it being a member of anything other than pro-American military alliances where this sort of foreign policy belongs.

Xenos 2Fan · Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject:

Dream_Merchant wrote: Mete wrote: I really do not see how Armenian genocide is at all related to Turkey's EU membership. Social, economic reforms, I'm all for it. Solution to Cyprus problem, I'm all for it but how the hell that something happenned 90 years ago is relevant to Turkey's EU membership.

Directly it would appear nothing. But on a deeper level it means that Turkey has to reconcile with itself its own past, particularly the unpleasant and purposefuly ignored parts. This form of self-recociliation is an ethical stepping stone, and an important one, for modern Turkey to be recognised for what it would like to be, a country which champions the European values.

...and just exactly what are Eurpean values Dream Merchant. Are you talking about the values where Europe raped the world for 500 years? After they got everything in the world (by force), filled their coffers, they became civilised? You became civilised at the expense of other cultures, lands and peoples you manipulated, used and in some cases destroyed. You "Europeans" started two world wars in the past century alone and caused the death of countless of millions of people. Are these the values you talk about. After raping other cultures you became wealthy and now you want to dictate to us Turks how to behave and what civilised behavior is? Its about time you got off your high horse and take a look in the mirror and deal with some and realities and face the fact that your shit does indeed stink like any other's. European values my ass!

Dream_Merchant · Joined: 19 Jun 2006 Posts: 422 Location: Limassol

Noone is dictating anything to anyone. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a democracy, it would be called a dictatorship. Turkey may opt out at any time.. noone is begging either, so don't feel any 'compulsions' to stay for our sake.

Now, let me outline yet another deep-rooted Turkish problem which you so profoundly exhibit.

"How can they judge us if they are criminals themselves. Since they can't it means we can do whatever we want, and heck we can do worse since they are saying that they are better than us.. after all we are Turkish and we Turkish have always had a rough side"

I know exactly what I am talking about, it is you who should clear up your understanding of it.

You want me to tell you what are European values? Why don't you tell yourself what are European values? Or don't you know what are European values?

Is Turkey playing it dumb or is it dumb? Decide already!

My high horse is where I remain. Because it is something of real value and of real effect. It is you and the rest of the like-minded individuals that need to lift your face off the dirt long enough to see that there is more in this world than horse excrement.

Instead of trying to lower my expectations so that they match with yours, try raising your own so that they match with mine and who knows we may find something somewhere in between.

Chapfallen · Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 464

Quote: ...and just exactly what are Eurpean values Dream Merchant. Are you talking about the values where Europe raped the world for 500 years? After they got everything in the world (by force), filled their coffers, they became civilised? You became civilised at the expense of other cultures, lands and peoples you manipulated, used and in some cases destroyed. You "Europeans" started two world wars in the past century alone and caused the death of countless of millions of people. Are these the values you talk about. After raping other cultures you became wealthy and now you want to dictate to us Turks how to behave and what civilised behavior is? Its about time you got off your high horse and take a look in the mirror and deal with some and realities and face the fact that your shit does indeed stink like any other's. European values my ass!

This is pure nationalistic behavior, the thing with Armenians is meaningless but there are many issues of human rights and free speech that must be solved in order to can Turkey be more civilized.

Like I’m expecting for example from my Taliban president to respect some values of free speech I’ve to expect the same thing from Turkey to reach some European standards, otherwise they don’t have any place to Europe and the whole situation stink more than your ass.

This is my third warning??? :)

I’ve already bored from this forum you will make my life easier if you kick me out so I will not have to answer to bullshits.

Xenos 2Fan · Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject:

Quote: Dream_Merchant wrote: Noone is dictating anything to anyone. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a democracy, it would be called a dictatorship. Turkey may opt out at any time.. noone is begging either, so don't feel any 'compulsions' to stay for our sake.

The EU has set forth certain rules and regulations that "DICTATE" how Turkey can join the club. Human rights, freedom of speech etc.. etc.. and other shortcommings that "EUROPEANS" feel that Turkey shows.

Quote: Now, let me outline yet another deep-rooted Turkish problem which you so profoundly exhibit.

The only "Deep-Rooted Problem" that Turks have is that people like you try to do a hatchet job on anything Turkish.

Quote: "How can they judge us if they are criminals themselves.

Could not have said it better myself. Again, after 500 years of rape, pillage, war and death you suddenly wrote the book on civilisation?

Quote: Since they can't it means we can do whatever we want, and heck we can do worse since they are saying that they are better than us.. after all we are Turkish and we Turkish have always had a rough side"

There you go again with your generalisations. Let me tell you something. Turkey is a big country with a large population. The EU talks have only just begun. You expect Turkey to change overnight? Reforms are going to take time and they will happen especially when know-it-alls like yourself would stop harrassing us at every corner with your superiority complex.

Quote: I know exactly what I am talking about, it is you who should clear up your understanding of it.

You don't know shit. Just because you have nice vocabulary doesn't make an expert on international affairs nor an Einstein on different cultures.

Quote: You want me to tell you what are European values? Why don't you tell yourself what are European values? Or don't you know what are European values?

Let me refresh your memory Sparky:
Rape
Pillage
War
Killings of millions
Colonisation
Genocide

Quote: Is Turkey playing it dumb or is it dumb? Decide already!

Turkey is playing it the way they should. Have you ever been to Turkey? Have you spoken to Turks? Or are you one of those idiots that forms their opinions on things simply by reading about them?

Quote: My high horse is where I remain. Because it is something of real value and of real effect.

Perhaps in your own mind but it is offensive to some of us.

Quote: It is you and the rest of the like-minded individuals that need to lift your face off the dirt long enough to see that there is more in this world than horse excrement.

The only horse excrement around here is in your head.

Quote: Instead of trying to lower my expectations so that they match with yours, try raising your own so that they match with mine and who knows we may find something somewhere in between.

More of your superiority complex. I doubt you and I will find anything "in between". You're a hypocrite.

Xenos 2Fan · Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Quote: I’ve already bored from this forum you will make my life easier if you kick me out so I will not have to answer to bullshits. [/quote]

Don't let the doorknob hit your ass on the way out.

Chapfallen · Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 464

You have a psychology problem of subordinateness and if you don’t like European values you can easy go in you stupid Mongolian way and stop pretending European.

You are a coward and you can’t accept what you are far behind and there is no fucking place for you in Europe.

You already said by your whole bullshit what you are not belong to Europe and I really hope what you will stop to be so stupid barbarian and get real and I really hope what you are not representing majority or what there is a chance for you to change or go to your Taliban way and leave us in peace.

Get used to the idea what we are coming from the apes and what people can be evolved because this is our nature. If you think what you are ok by being an ape then stay there and eat your bananas.

Xenos 2Fan · Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:

Chapfallen wrote: You have a psychology problem of subordinateness and if you don’t like European values you can easy go in you stupid Mongolian way and stop pretending European.

You are a coward and you can’t accept what you are far behind and there is no fucking place for you in Europe.

You already said by your whole bullshit what you are not belong to Europe and I really hope what you will stop to be so stupid barbarian and get real and I really hope what you are not representing majority or what there is a chance for you to change or go to your Taliban way and leave us in peace.

Get used to the idea what we are coming from the apes and what people can be evolved because this is our nature. If you think what you are ok by being an ape then stay there and eat your bananas.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is this guy for real?

Chapfallen · Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 464

Ohhh yes I’m for real banana guy I’m the first one that will accuse his own culture where is wrong and I’m the most appropriate person to answer to your imaginations :)