www.talkcyprus.org

Taskin · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

The sooner one set of people stop attempting to dominate the other, and finally accepts and indeed supports the legitimate equal rights of all of us to live under our own governance, then the the very need or reason to fight and argue is simply taken away. The more you try to control someone, regardless of any good intentions you may have, the harder he will fight back for his independance from you.

The next logical step in this process is intergration. This can clearly seen with the progression from the destruction of World Wars I & II to the current situation with the EU. Who would have envisaged sharing anything with the Germans after their particular history? Countries that once fought each other are eventually drawn together once any perceived threat to their existance is removed. And especially when each side stands up and accepts its errors.

This is what is needed in Cyprus. Recognition of both sides ruling themselves until the perceived threats simply disappear. Admission of past wrongs and formal acceptance and apologies to those affected.

With time future generations will see no reason to be separated. However, this needs to be done at the natural pace of the people. Pushing too quickly will only atagonise and could possibly set us back to where none of us wishes to return.

In a Utopian finale the borders will cease to exist. Not just in Cyprus, but everwhere.

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"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

cypezokyli · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 2344

interesting idea

Quote: In a Utopian finale the borders will cease to exist. Not just in Cyprus, but everwhere.

1. are we really talking about this process being applicable everywhere ? :wink:

2. what does socialism has to say about a) the rights of refugees , and b) the (extreme nationalistic i would say) practise that was common in the beggining of the century of the "exchange of populations". it would be interesting to see a "left" perspective on the above practise.

Taskin · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

Thank you Cypezokyli,

I do see the process applicable everwhere, although wether it comes to pass is a different question.

As for the last quote by Bill Shankly, thats not mant to have any bearing on the idea. Just something I like. Much like you and your birds :-)

Taskin · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

depurple · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 2875 Location: Australia

Taskin let me add my couple of extra bits to your solution:
1: No Greek and Turkish Flags:
2: No Firearms and weapons on the island at all:
3: Our National Anthem:

And if there is going to be 2 states: Let the all the people live under that state in peace:
Example:
Let me live under the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus on my land as long as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is under EU laws like the Republic of Cyprus and vise verse:
If it was so I would go live there tomorrow:
I live with 1001 different nationalities in Australia now and living with the Turkish Cypriot would be difficult for me? No way!
BUT 2 separate states with no freedom of movement is NOT a EU criteria!
If you live in Italy and want to move to Britain 1000klms away ALL you do is just pack up and go:
But moving from Limassol to live in Lapithos 80klms away is NOT allowed?
I don't think the EU will agree to this: The EU is trying to take down the boarders NOT put more up:
cheers
See you in Lapta!

Taskin · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

Flags - Agreed
Weapons and troops - Agreed
Anthem - Whetever, but no lyrics, Turkish or Greek

Each state would be independant and sovereign for the time being and so naturally there would be borders and restrictions on who moves there. But this need not be permanent. Once people get used to that and feel safe with each other again, then we intergrate peacefully in our own time. It should be a natural progression.

Pushing a settlement on each other simply doesnt work. Look at the results of the last referendum and the damage done since, or more importantly look at the result of the 1960 settlement. It got us where we all are today.

Greek Cypriots are worried about losing their wealth to support the North and Turkish Cypriots are worried about being drowned in the stampede from the South and becomming servants to the wealthier Greek Cypriots.

We have to be realistic. The current situation has lasted 30 years and cannot be changed overnight. It will take time.

As for Lapta, the borders are open. Come whenever you want.

Dhavlos · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 4697 Location: Birmingham

One major problem i can see with a two state solution would be an inevitable 'arms race' between the north and the south, so that each side feels protected from the other. And any time the north and turkey would perform joint military operations (and same with teh south) it would cause great controversy, andaccusations of 'preparation for war' etc.

it may sound a bit OTT, but it probably would happen.

Taskin · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

I think we got over that one after the S300 missile crisis.

Id be more than happy to have an absolute minimum of arms for both sides, although I think arms and indeed the number of troops will always remain an issue until we learn to trust each other. Thats why I suggest the above. It will all take time.

This would also be an issue in a unified state and I belive was one of the reasons fro the Greek Cypriot's rejection of the Anna Plan. Even in the post 1960 Cyprus it remained a stubborn issue. The Cyprus National Guard, which was meant to comprise both Greeks and Turks never took off.

This is why I advocate a slow transition. Once you specify a time, then the closer it comes the greater the pressure. As I siad, look at Europe. It was torn apart by the é World Wars, but independance is now making way for ever closer unification and its all chosen by the people. Thats what we need to aim for and thats why I say its the only solution.

Kifeas · Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:04 am Post subject:

Taskin wrote: Flags - Agreed
Weapons and troops - Agreed
Anthem - Whetever, but no lyrics, Turkish or Greek

Each state would be independant and sovereign for the time being and so naturally there would be borders and restrictions on who moves there. But this need not be permanent. Once people get used to that and feel safe with each other again, then we intergrate peacefully in our own time. It should be a natural progression.

Pushing a settlement on each other simply doesnt work. Look at the results of the last referendum and the damage done since, or more importantly look at the result of the 1960 settlement. It got us where we all are today.

Greek Cypriots are worried about losing their wealth to support the North and Turkish Cypriots are worried about being drowned in the stampede from the South and becomming servants to the wealthier Greek Cypriots.

We have to be realistic. The current situation has lasted 30 years and cannot be changed overnight. It will take time.

As for Lapta, the borders are open. Come whenever you want.

Taskin, you have to be the realistic one!

You come and propose solution ideas that you should know for a fact that they are regarded as an anathema and a complete non-starter for the Greek Cypriots, and expect on top of that that they will take them seriously and bother to discuss with you any further on their basis.

Out of curiosity, how do you understand this "two sovereign state solution?" What percentage of territory do you believe each state should posses? The current occupation status quo, with the north having the 36%, the Annan plan with 29%, or the 82%:18% that represents the demographics of the islands people?

Taskin · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 23

Quite frankly any discussion with dreamers like yourself is quite impossible. You live in a dream world of your Government's making where you are the hard-done-by Greek Cypriots who never did anything to deserve today's situation and you want the world to make amends for you. You reap what you sow my friend, and your Government's history didnt sow very kindly.

If land is to be distributed according the size of the population I suggest Greece, and indeed half the world, stand in line to hand some over too.

For the record, I fully agree that land would need to be exchanged in favour of the Greek Cypriots - I said as much at the start. But the fact remains, that your past and present Governments, and very probably you yourself, would accept nothing less than 100% for yourselves - with that old cliche 'protected minority'. That is where the problem lies.

Your Government needs to accept that we are equal and have full equal rights. The second your Government does that you have a solution.

Kifeas · Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:34 am Post subject:

Taskin wrote: Quite frankly any discussion with dreamers like yourself is quite impossible. You live in a dream world of your Government's making where you are the hard-done-by Greek Cypriots who never did anything to deserve today's situation and you want the world to make amends for you. You reap what you sow my friend, and your Government's history didnt sow very kindly.

Actually I think visionaries and dreamers are the ones that change things to the better, and fanatics and nationalists like yourself only to the worst.

Taskin wrote: If land is to be distributed according the size of the population I suggest Greece, and indeed half the world, stand in line to hand some over too.
Okay then, on what basis shall we distribute it? Should we distribute it based property ownership by the people of the two communities?

Taskin wrote: For the record, I fully agree that land would need to be exchanged in favour of the Greek Cypriots - I said as much at the start. But the fact remains, that your past and present Governments, and very probably you yourself, would accept nothing less than 100% for yourselves - with that old cliche 'protected minority'. That is where the problem lies.

What do you mean we will not accept 100% for ourselves? We only want what legally belongs to us. Each one gets back his properties. We do not want any of your properties.

What does this "old cliché" about "protected minorities" have to do with the issue we discuss here?

Taskin wrote: Your Government needs to accept that we are equal and have full equal rights. The second your Government does that you have a solution.

Of course you are equals, and of course you have full equal rights! Did we ever say that you worth any less than us, because you are Turkish Cypriots?

repulsewarrior · Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 1683 Location: Canada

Taskin, would you accept that satellite communitities can be created for the development of Turkish Cypriots, Cantons if you will, in the south so that at least the population can be distributed over the island, and that some of the displaced can return as communities to their homes in the north.