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Dhavlos · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 4697 Location: Birmingham

my map took a little longer!!!

cannedmoose · Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject:

Dhavlos wrote: my map took a little longer!!!

I have to admit, yours confused the hell out of me... :lol:

Dhavlos · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 4697 Location: Birmingham

ah, its quite easy really
if its in teh blue, its greek, if its in the red its turkish and if its in the yelolow, then it is equally shared

Alexandros Lordos · Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 324 Location: Cyprus/Greece

cannedmoose wrote:
The Turkish Cypriot component state could be a defined area (shown on the map below as the area within the red line), within which resettlement by Greek Cypriots would be extremely limited (i.e. <10% of the total population) and subject to approval by an independent body created to facilitate managed migration. This 'red zone' would form the core of the Turkish Cypriot component state and would constitute about 12% of the total area of Cyprus. I've drawn it by referring to the population demographic map of Cyprus circa 1960 (also included below) to incorporate a number of areas traditionally dominated by Turkish Cypriots north-east of Lefkosia/Lefkosa.

The area further contained by the orange line (approximately 13% of the island) would also be under the jurisdiction of the Turkish Cypriot component state, but within this 'orange zone' right of return would be allowed up to 50% of the total population (I'd need a Turkish Cypriot perspective on whether >50% would be an acceptable option, I did think of unlimited right of return in the orange zone, but I'd need other opinions on that), effectively mirroring the population demographic in the area in 1960. This would allow a substantial number of Greek Cypriots from Famagusta, and the Mesaoria and Karpass regions to return if they wished to.

I haven't fleshed out details on voting arrangements etc., perhaps others could help with that. But this might satisfy the demands of both sides, providing for a Turkish Cypriot component state of substantial size, within which an area would essentially be 'reserved' for Turkish Cypriots, albeit with a small Greek Cypriot community if one was reestablished.

Thoughts please folks, is this a goer or a non-starter?

Sorry my friend, I think it is a non-starter. :)

It's not that there is anything particularly wrong with your proposal, but it is too subtle and complex, placing restrictions that will cause a massive emotional backlash in the Greek Cypriot community while offering more demographic protection to the Turkish Cypriots than they really want and need.

If there are going to be limits to relocation within a bizonal system, then it is best if there is a simple maximum percent - say 30% - and then leave things to develop naturally. The Turkish Cypriots will be happy that they will never be the minority in the constituent state overall, while all the Greek Cypriots will have to swallow is a simple number.

Dhavlos · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 4697 Location: Birmingham

alex, what do you think about my one?, its under mooses proposal, with a map attached.

PS welcome back, youve been gone a while!

cannedmoose · Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject:

Alexandros Lordos wrote: Sorry my friend, I think it is a non-starter. :)

It's not that there is anything particularly wrong with your proposal, but it is too subtle and complex, placing restrictions that will cause a massive emotional backlash in the Greek Cypriot community while offering more demographic protection to the Turkish Cypriots than they really want and need.

If there are going to be limits to relocation within a bizonal system, then it is best if there is a simple maximum percent - say 30% - and then leave things to develop naturally. The Turkish Cypriots will be happy that they will never be the minority in the constituent state overall, while all the Greek Cypriots will have to swallow is a simple number.

Thanks for the perspective Alex... think I'll stick to security plans in the future :D :D Land and property are too contentious :shock:

Alexandros Lordos · Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 324 Location: Cyprus/Greece

cannedmoose wrote: Alexandros Lordos wrote: Sorry my friend, I think it is a non-starter. :)

It's not that there is anything particularly wrong with your proposal, but it is too subtle and complex, placing restrictions that will cause a massive emotional backlash in the Greek Cypriot community while offering more demographic protection to the Turkish Cypriots than they really want and need.

If there are going to be limits to relocation within a bizonal system, then it is best if there is a simple maximum percent - say 30% - and then leave things to develop naturally. The Turkish Cypriots will be happy that they will never be the minority in the constituent state overall, while all the Greek Cypriots will have to swallow is a simple number.

Thanks for the perspective Alex... think I'll stick to security plans in the future :D :D Land and property are too contentious :shock:

Lol, I didn't mean to discourage you ... :)

Actually, you proposed a map some while ago, in which Nicosia, Famagusta, and the various ports/airports would be under Federal jursidiction. I thought that particular map was an excellent proposal.

Maybe there should be another survey, in which people are put before a number of maps, (and a number of flags, since we are at it) so that we can see what the wider public would choose.

brother · Joined: 15 Aug 2005 Posts: 8920 Location: London/Cyprus

Quote: Actually, you proposed a map some while ago, in which Nicosia, Famagusta, and the various ports/airports would be under Federal jursidiction. I thought that particular map was an excellent proposal.

Maybe there should be another survey, in which people are put before a number of maps, (and a number of flags, since we are at it) so that we can see what the wider public would choose.

I can sense another survey coming, go for it alex we love your surveys. :wink:

Alexandros Lordos · Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 324 Location: Cyprus/Greece

Dhavlos wrote:
welcome back, youve been gone a while!

Thanks! I am afraid that, because of my work obligations, the best I can do in this forum is "appear" for a few days, then "disappear" for a few days ...

Dhavlos wrote: what do you think about my one?, its under mooses proposal, with a map attached.

Your ideas remind me of what Turkcyp in the CF was trying to do. Basically, you would have very strong municipalities, freedom of residence, and depending on where each person chose to live it would be either a "Turkish" or a "Greek" municipality. For cities, however, a special regime would apply so that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots would have an equal voice in the selection of mayors. Is this what you are proposing?

Personally, I have no problem with such a proposal, but perhaps the Turkish Cypriots might have security concerns if bizonality was to be cancelled like that. They still feel the Greek Cypriots deep down, and they prefer to have a large region that is "their own" so that they can feel safe within it.

As you have hinted, perhaps your proposal could work as a "final state of affairs", once we have completed the "first phase of re-unification" - inevitably through a bizonal arrangement.

Dhavlos · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 4697 Location: Birmingham

Quote:
Your ideas remind me of what Turkcyp in the CF was trying to do. Basically, you would have very strong municipalities, freedom of residence, and depending on where each person chose to live it would be either a "Turkish" or a "Greek" municipality. For cities, however, a special regime would apply so that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots would have an equal voice in the selection of mayors. Is this what you are proposing?

As you have hinted, perhaps your proposal could work as a "final state of affairs", once we have completed the "first phase of re-unification" - inevitably through a bizonal arrangement.

that is exaclty as i see it.

Dhavlos · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 4697 Location: Birmingham

Alexandros, I read your poll that you did, on your website, that was published in the newspapers. I had compleletly forgotten about it, until i rememebred from something you said earlier in the topic!
It made me feel more confident that a fairer solution is acceptable....even though many Turkish Cypriots may see it as not as good as the annan plan.

The Revised Plan you put at the end....i would be happy to accept rather than the annan plan.
(even though i like my own one to be the final one!! hehe)

cannedmoose · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject:

Alexandros Lordos wrote: Lol, I didn't mean to discourage you ... :)

Actually, you proposed a map some while ago, in which Nicosia, Famagusta, and the various ports/airports would be under Federal jursidiction. I thought that particular map was an excellent proposal.

Maybe there should be another survey, in which people are put before a number of maps, (and a number of flags, since we are at it) so that we can see what the wider public would choose.

I think I've lost the original map, but it's easily created. When I have time in a couple of weeks I will do so and repost it on this forum to see what the collective thinks. If you wish to use that map for another of your survey's you are free to do so Alex. I liked my previous suggestion as well, we just needed to work on the Federal-CS relationship aspects of it.