www.talkcyprus.org

[Dhavlos]

im not sure quite where this goes, so if it is not appropriate here, erol, could you move it please, thanks in advance.

SO, from what ive been reading on this website and CF(dare we say the name anymore hehe) is that the solution would need to encompass for Turkish Cypriots these points:

1. An area for them to call their own(ie the Turkish Cypriot component state in the A-plan)
2. Protection from Greek Cypriot domination(politicaly and militarily)
3. the ability to live safely/securely/prosperously under a cypriot state

have i missed anyhting out....i know it is simplified but is this correct?what else?

Greek Cypriots want these points satisfied, generally:

1. Right of Return
2. Freedom of Movement and other rights inshrined in the ECHR(european convention of human rights)
3. No Turkish Troops on the island

what else?. if we can keep it simple, then the points can be safisfied in a solution that we can all accept....can you see what im doing here? If we have one place where we can all go to see what each side wants from a solution, i think it can clear some confusion up, a little.

[erolz]

All in all that seems a pretty reasonable summary to me. You might add economic domination to number 2 for Turkish Cypriots as well possibly.

I also personaly think there is no problem in saying that the ultimate objective is to build a single cypriot nation with no need for any specical provisions for either community, as long as this is done with consent of the two communites and not imposed via some sort of timetable. That is to say upfront that the solution is not an end goal in itself but a means of creating an environment where the end goal (of a true single cypriot nation) can be worked towards in partnership by both communites.

[Saint Jimmy]

I think an importany point is left out of the list, Dhavlos.

I think most Turkish Cypriots wish for the 'area for them to call their own' to be not only 'their own' on paper, but to be inhabited by Turkish Cypriots in the majority. I think this is a tough one to swallow for Greek Cypriots. And quite frankly, I don't understand it.

[Dhavlos]

yeh jimmy, i know what you mean, i was wondering whether Turkish Cypriots would only want one large area, like in teh A-plan, or whether they would accept lots of smaller areas, which would not encompass lots of greek villages(if right of return was satisfied)

[cannedmoose]

As loath as I am to countenance two 'ethnically pure' states, I think as a starter in Cyprus that might be necessary. Most of the people of both the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and Republic of Cyprus have no experience of actually living side-by-side with their peers from the other community. Here's a tester of a possible solution that would provide for a substantial Turkish Cypriot component state (about 25%), yet would also provide for a Turkish Cypriot component state within which Turkish Cypriots would be the vast majority, yet many Greek Cypriots would be permitted right of return.

The Turkish Cypriot component state could be a defined area (shown on the map below as the area within the red line), within which resettlement by Greek Cypriots would be extremely limited (i.e. <10% of the total population) and subject to approval by an independent body created to facilitate managed migration. This 'red zone' would form the core of the Turkish Cypriot component state and would constitute about 12% of the total area of Cyprus. I've drawn it by referring to the population demographic map of Cyprus circa 1960 (also included below) to incorporate a number of areas traditionally dominated by Turkish Cypriots north-east of Lefkosia/Lefkosa.

The area further contained by the orange line (approximately 13% of the island) would also be under the jurisdiction of the Turkish Cypriot component state, but within this 'orange zone' right of return would be allowed up to 50% of the total population (I'd need a Turkish Cypriot perspective on whether >50% would be an acceptable option, I did think of unlimited right of return in the orange zone, but I'd need other opinions on that), effectively mirroring the population demographic in the area in 1960. This would allow a substantial number of Greek Cypriots from Famagusta, and the Mesaoria and Karpass regions to return if they wished to.

I haven't fleshed out details on voting arrangements etc., perhaps others could help with that. But this might satisfy the demands of both sides, providing for a Turkish Cypriot component state of substantial size, within which an area would essentially be 'reserved' for Turkish Cypriots, albeit with a small Greek Cypriot community if one was reestablished.

Thoughts please folks, is this a goer or a non-starter?

Map 1



Click to enlarge - warning large file


Map of CyPop c.1960



Click to enlarge - warning large file

[Dhavlos]

I like the idea, moose, it would be much more reasonanble to Greek Cypriots, but wether Turkish Cypriots would like it, i dont know.

When ive talked about multizones, im not sure if people have understood me, this is what i would mean.



Any one could live where they want, right of return would happen, and displaced people would be rehoused.

in the Red areas(mainly Turkish Cypriot) and in the Blue areas(mainly Greek Cypriot) there would be normal majority voting on issues, but special 'minority rights' would protect the minority. (i beleive this could work because i would not think Greek Cypriots would want to live in historically, Turkish Cypriot villages, vis-versa)
In the yellow areas(the cities/mixed areas) there would be political equality, in the sense both communities would ahve equal voting power,(seats allocated as per population, but each community would ahve to agree 50% in favour for law to be passed)

The central governemnt would have final say over most issues, but the 'zones' would be like a strong local government, maybe like scotlands devolved powers in the UK.

do people see what i mean? maybe the multizonal approach may not work in teh beginning, but eventuially i would think that Turkish Cypriots would move back into their old villages(with financial assistance etc)

[erolz]

Dhavlos wrote: The central governemnt would have final say over most issues, but the 'zones' would be like a strong local government, maybe like scotlands devolved powers in the UK.


What would stop the 'central government' from deciding to change the laws and rules concerning the the 'devolved' local area administrations, against the will of the Turkish Cypriot community in your system?

[Dhavlos]

Im not too sure, maybe the 'central govt' would ahve to have 50% support from both communities in the central govt for that kind of thing, or maybe have them inshrined in the constitution, so the supreme court would be able to act as a checks and balance against this.
Also, if they took powers away from one 'zone' my idea would be that all the zones were the same, so the power would be taken away from ALL zones. Also, as central govt would be quite weak, all matters, i think, would ahve to be 50% majorities from both communties.

does that make sense or is it in the wrong direction?

[cannedmoose]

Just on my proposal, Erol, you're a good barometer of Turkish Cypriot-ness... what was your opinion on it? Just on the zonal government issue, I've had a bit more time to think through my proposal.

The Turkish Cypriot component state would have permanent right of jurisdiction over the red and orange zones, within a federal arrangement (i.e. most powers would be devolved to the Turkish Cypriot component state, with some such as foreign affairs, defence etc. at federal level). After a period of 15 years, the population living in the orange zone (both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot) would be asked via referendum if they wish the limit on right of return to be abolished, i.e. any Greek Cypriot wishing to settle in the area would be allowed to without any restriction. The referendum would require a majority vote from members of both communities. Should either community vote no, referenda would be held every five years thereafter to ask the same question.

Whatever the result, the orange zone would remain part of the Turkish Cypriot component state in perpetuity. Any boundary revisions would need to be agreed by both Constituent State authorities and by the Federal administration.

Needs fleshing out more, but a bit more detail there.

[erolz]

Dhavlos wrote: Im not too sure, maybe the 'central govt' would ahve to have 50% support from both communities in the central govt for that kind of thing, or maybe have them inshrined in the constitution, so the supreme court would be able to act as a checks and balance against this.
Also, if they took powers away from one 'zone' my idea would be that all the zones were the same, so the power would be taken away from ALL zones. Also, as central govt would be quite weak, all matters, i think, would ahve to be 50% majorities from both communties.

does that make sense or is it in the wrong direction?

Yes this all makes sense. However one has to understand that the Turkish Cypriot community remains cynical about such 'protections' exactly because they failed in the past.

The issue of municipalites is a clear example of this. The 60 consitution had provisions for seperate muncipal administrations in certain big cities enshrined in it. However the Greek Cypriot admin did not want to implement these, despite agreeing the consitituion as they saw them as helping taksim. They simply refused to implement them. When the issue went to the supreme court and the court ruled in favour of the Turkish Cypriot community they ignored this ruling. When the Turkish Cypriot community tried to force them to implement them by blocking the budget using their vetos powers it led to the break down of the bi-communal government entirely.

This is not to say we believe that these kind of things will happen again or that we will not agree any solution with such protections. It does mean however that we fear such protections may once again fail us. For me a solution would need to outline explicitly what would happen in similar circumsatnces.

[Dhavlos]

ah, ok then. I think now, people would be more likely to accept the ruling, and go with it.
also, if the proposal was from the beginning, then it may be more acceptable, than if it was being introduced as in the past, i see what your saying though.

but maybe the EU could have some kind of role....eg, penalising the Greek Cypriot community somehow, with a fine or something if this kind of thing happens.

[Dhavlos]

erolz wrote:
This is not to say we believe that these kind of things will happen again or that we will not agree any solution with such protections. It does mean however that we fear such protections may once again fail us. For me a solution would need to outline explicitly what would happen in similar circumsatnces.

Ok, in my 'solution'. The Prime Minister would be head of Govt, whereas the President would be a 'figurehead'-importantly, with the power to dissolve parliament.
What i think should happen if this kind of issue came up, would be the President could threaten to dissolve parliament if the issue was not resolved by both communites within, say, a 30day period. If the issue had not been resolved by then, then the president would either have the final say(but must be in agreement with his vice president, of the other community). If neither the vice/president could agree, then a general election would be automatically called.

hopefully the threat of a party either loosing power or being threatened with dissolution of govt would lead them to either work for a solution or change/scrap the idea

[cannedmoose]

I guess my test suggestion is a non-starter then, since no-one's commented *sniff* :(

[Dhavlos]

ah, moose, dont be sad! its a nice idea, but i dont hink it would work

[cannedmoose]

I know, just threw it out as a tester for comments and got none other than yours... that map took me all of 60 seconds... :lol: :lol: