www.talkcyprus.org

[cypezokyli]

i read this news in three different newspapers today.


athens is proposing in short the return of famagusta for trade for the Turkish Cypriots.
among other things athens appears to be proposing :

1. trade
all ports in the north come under a temporal control of the EU in order to facilitate trade.

new "green line" regulation , with the purpose of minimizing the trade barriers that are present in the existing one

2. return of famagusta
famagusta to be return under the EU
to be completely demilitirised
an EU-police will keep the order
refuggees will have the right to return
the EU will promote infrastructure projects
a final decision for famagusta will be taken after a comprehensive solution to the cyppro

3. stopping the constraction on Greek Cypriot properties


at the moment in greek (sure it will be translated soon )

http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=110,id=14685100

do you consider this as a serious proposal , or is it just a counter proposal , to the denial of turkey to open its ports to cyprus arguing the isolation of Turkish Cypriots ?

[cannedmoose]

I would say that it has positive elements, albeit mixed with proposals that they know will not be accepted - the obvious one being that all ports in the north would come under EU control... the counter to this is why all ports in the south would not similarly come under EU control for the benefit of all Cypriots.

A better proposal is to place Famagusta port under joint control of an independent Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot committee (selected from members of the respective shipping authorities north and south), facilitated and advised by the EU. This committee would be jointly responsible only for the operation of the port, with no remit for political decisions whatsoever. In the event of disputes within the committee, the EU would provide arbitration to find a solution.

As for port security, I think a force operated through Europol would be the best solution.

As for Varosha (which I assume you mean when you talk about the 'return of Famagusta'... no-one will return to Varosha until much of the place has been levelled and rebuilt. Maintenance on the buildings has not taken place for more than 30 years now and they are visibly crumbling and the beach is slowly being washed away and needs repair. So talk of an instant return to Varosha is pie in the sky. It will be at least 5 years before some people could return.

As for construction, I think we all wish that this would stop, it would be the ultimate CBM from the Turkish Cypriot side and show a real desire to work on the greatest issue that divides the island. Somehow though, I don't see this being accepted anytime soon. Too much money is being made from selling land and building property to stop now.

[Kifeas]

cannedmoose wrote: I would say that it has positive elements, albeit mixed with proposals that they know will not be accepted - the obvious one being that all ports in the north would come under EU control... the counter to this is why all ports in the south would not similarly come under EU control for the benefit of all Cypriots.


This is an absolutely ridicules and illogical argument, not only for those expressing it, but also for those that give it any merit.

It is nothing short of saying, why don't we also derecognise the Republic of Cyprus, -since the "TRNCy" is not recognised, so that we put everybody on an even level!

I cannot believe that someone with Moose’s intelligence have tried to insinuate its usage!

[Dhavlos]

One question.....when people move back to varosha, what are they gona do about employment? i mean will there be jobs and stuff for them to go back to/ supermarkets, food, where will they get this all from? who is going to sell it? ....

basically, i mean, how can people livein varosha, if the infrastructure is not there to sustain it?

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas wrote: cannedmoose wrote: I would say that it has positive elements, albeit mixed with proposals that they know will not be accepted - the obvious one being that all ports in the north would come under EU control... the counter to this is why all ports in the south would not similarly come under EU control for the benefit of all Cypriots.


This is an absolutely ridicules and illogical argument, not only for those expressing it, but also for those that give it any merit.

It is nothing short of saying, why don't we also derecognise the Republic of Cyprus, -since the "TRNCy" is not recognised, so that we put everybody on an even level!

I cannot believe that someone with Moose’s intelligence have tried to insinuate its usage!

Its ok for us but not for you? typical Greek Cypriot mindset, its called a level playing field you will have to get used to it, if you really want to share the island or is that not your real aim?

[Kifeas]

Viewpoint wrote:

Its ok for us but not for you? typical Greek Cypriot mindset, its called a level playing field you will have to get used to it, if you really want to share the island or is that not your real aim?

VP, of course the facts that you give absolutely no regard, and show absolutely no respect for international legality, are well documented ones! This is what makes an outlaw -this complete expressed lack of respect of the law, and not that you live in the occupied north or that you are a T/C by default.

However, regardless of what little regard you have about international legality, fortunately the rest of the international community prefer to abide by it, and do not intent to violate it easily, as you would like to see them doing.

If you want a level playing field, you should instead be asking for the withdrawal of the illegal Turkish troops that occupy this country and stole and hold as hostage the properties of 200,000 G/Cs, and to ask for the immediate re-instatement of everyone’s property and other human rights. This would have been an even playing field, and not to hold people's properties with the use of illegal troops as hostages so that you blackmail a solution on your side's terms!

[cannedmoose]

Kifeas wrote: This is an absolutely ridicules and illogical argument, not only for those expressing it, but also for those that give it any merit.

It is nothing short of saying, why don't we also derecognise the Republic of Cyprus, -since the "TRNCy" is not recognised, so that we put everybody on an even level!

I cannot believe that someone with Moose’s intelligence have tried to insinuate its usage!

Kifeas, if you read the tone of my post correctly, then you would realise that I would not support such a move, because in legal terms it would be meaningless (given that the Republic of Cyprus's ports are recognised under international treaties). My point in noting this was to pre-empt the argument of some Turkish Cypriots who would raise this point (and have raised it before on this forum).

[cannedmoose]

Dhavlos wrote: One question.....when people move back to varosha, what are they gona do about employment? i mean will there be jobs and stuff for them to go back to/ supermarkets, food, where will they get this all from? who is going to sell it? ....

basically, i mean, how can people livein varosha, if the infrastructure is not there to sustain it?

The simple argument is that they can't move back straight away. I've only seen Varosha from some distance, i.e. through a telescope at Deryneia, but even from that distance the scale of the task is evident. When you look at photographs taken close up, the task is even clearer. Many of the buildings were under construction in 1974 and are not structurally sound. Some buildings were badly damaged in the fighting and will also need to be demolished. It is true that some buildings in the residential areas may be ok, but they will all need to be surveyed before anyone can move back - a huge task in itself. Furthermore, the infrastructure (e.g. electricity, water etc.) supplying these houses has not been used since 1974 and will need a complete overhaul, which is another huge task. Furthermore the roads will all need to be relaid.

All in all, Varosha is not currently suitable for resettlement and it will take years for it to be so.

The natural industry in Varosha is as it was before 1974, tourism, but again this cannnot take off without significant investment. Photographs show that without significant repairs and maintenance half the beach has washed away. That will require significant civil engineering to restore to its former glory. We should also hope that any rebuilding is done more sympathetically than the Benidorm-esque towers of 1974. Cyprus is already losing out in the tourism battle to places like Sharm-el-Sheikh and needs high-class tourism to bounce back. Fingers crossed that this is what would resurrect Varosha from its current mess.

[Kifeas]

cannedmoose wrote: Kifeas wrote: This is an absolutely ridicules and illogical argument, not only for those expressing it, but also for those that give it any merit.

It is nothing short of saying, why don't we also derecognise the Republic of Cyprus, -since the "TRNCy" is not recognised, so that we put everybody on an even level!

I cannot believe that someone with Moose’s intelligence have tried to insinuate its usage!

Kifeas, if you read the tone of my post correctly, then you would realise that I would not support such a move, because in legal terms it would be meaningless (given that the Republic of Cyprus's ports are recognised under international treaties). My point in noting this was to pre-empt the argument of some Turkish Cypriots who would raise this point (and have raised it before on this forum).

Okay Moose, I understand and appreciate what you are saying, but the way you left it hanging could have easily given the impression that you somehow also regard it as a worth listening argument.

[cypezokyli]

ok before we continue fighting , it is not that clear what athens means by "taking control of the ports".
perhaps my translation was kind of strong

what was written in the article exactly was :

Quote: Προσωρινή διοίκηση του συνόλου των λιμανιών της κατεχόμενης περιοχής από την Ε.Ε.

Η διοίκηση αυτή (μπορεί να πάρει μορφή οργανισμού ή εταιρείας) θα έχει την ευθύνη εφαρμογής του Κοινού Εξωτερικού Δασμολογίου..

so it would be :

temporal management of all the ports of the occupied areas from the EU.
this management can take the form of organisation or a company , and will have the responsibility of applying the "common foreign duty / tax" (this term might not be exactly correct)

in short i wouldnt say that athens proposes "control" as such, but i would suppose that they mean an EU body to check if the EU-rules are applied.

we ll se exactly what they mean when we have more info.

[cypezokyli]

why do i copy paste sth in greek and i get numbers instead ? :evil:

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas wrote: Viewpoint wrote:

Its ok for us but not for you? typical Greek Cypriot mindset, its called a level playing field you will have to get used to it, if you really want to share the island or is that not your real aim?

VP, of course the facts that you give absolutely no regard, and show absolutely no respect for international legality, are well documented ones! This is what makes an outlaw -this complete expressed lack of respect of the law, and not that you live in the occupied north or that you are a T/C by default.

However, regardless of what little regard you have about international legality, fortunately the rest of the international community prefer to abide by it, and do not intent to violate it easily, as you would like to see them doing.

If you want a level playing field, you should instead be asking for the withdrawal of the illegal Turkish troops that occupy this country and stole and hold as hostage the properties of 200,000 G/Cs, and to ask for the immediate re-instatement of everyone’s property and other human rights. This would have been an even playing field, and not to hold people's properties with the use of illegal troops as hostages so that you blackmail a solution on your side's terms!

The step we are currently trying to take are the ports, the army,settlers properties etc would also be dealt with when trying to establish a level playing field. Currently your ports are purely Greek Cypriot run as ours Turkish Cypriot run, then surely if we are to run them jointly with the EU then yours to should be run in the same fashion that is the level playing field I am talking about, when we address the army then the numbers and conditions should be the same for both communities, all I am asking for is equal treatment, eg you have recognition why shouldn't I? that's another issue where we would have to level out that playing field.... :wink:

[cypezokyli]

why instead of arguing "you should do what i do" , not consider if the perceived benfits of this proposal are higher than the perceived costs ?

i cannot say sth about the exact details of this proposal , but assuming is just an office checking for some rules in return of trade , (in short partial lift of the isolation) , why do we get stuck on matters that are not important?

i mean i could accept the argument that the cost of returning varosia is higher than the benefit on any lift on the isolation - concequently the proposal is rejected.
somehow such argumentation makes more sence to me ....or ? :?

what would the Turkish Cypriots receive if such an office is also present in the south ?
i guess only national pride ....and what price do we put on that ?
i guess thats the big question on all aspects of the cyppro isnt it ?

[Khan]

I guess its the symbolism cypez. Turkish Cypriot's have throughout Cyprus's history claimed an equal role in the foundation of the state, they saw enosis as a way of undermining that. Now 30 years on, Turkish Cypriot's will see such a move as an attempt to place them under Greek Cypriot authority yet again. Regardless of the legalities, this is a mindset that is important to understand.

[pg]

Dhavlos wrote: One question.....when people move back to varosha, what are they gona do about employment?

It is only about 35 minutes from Famagusta to Nicosia...