www.talkcyprus.org

[turkcyp]

I did not know where to open this topic, so I decided to open it here because it is not directly related to Cyprus problem but is more general but have implications on Cyprus problem.

Quite frankly I am getting bored of the same lines going on and on over the Cyprus forum about Cyprus Problem. That is why I guess I jumped into discussion with Birkibrisli, and Khan about nation vs. individual or state vs. individual. I guess I am hungry for some sort of intellectual discussion other than the old Cyprus Problem.

Take a break. Trust me when we come back it still will be there.

Please debate frankly and for everybody's sake please do not relate it to Cyprus Problem directly so we do not have another slug fest.
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The issue is Collectivism VS. Individualism
The issue is J.J. Rousseau VS. H.D. Thoreau
The issue is state, nation, society, community, VS. individual

The issue is where do we draw the line between collective behavior (in the form of submitting to the will of larger civic unit like state, nation, community) vs. individual behavior (self-sufficiency, self-interest, self-preservation).

[The Cypriot]

In my view an adult individual, of sound mind, should have the right to act as he chooses, so long as that right does not impact on the rights of others to do likewise.

[Dhavlos]

Personally, i do not like the rugged individualism that neoliberalism has promoted...and has lead us to the societies we are in today(although i understand that other reasons are for it too, it is my beleif that it is the neoliberals that has exasperated it).

Personally, i would liek to see a more 'collective' approach to social affairs, however, the individual shold be free to do as they wish.

People as individuals should act as they like, but have some kind of responsibility to society and the 'collective' to act responsibly and put something back in.

[CY]

I share similar views with Dhavlos on this one. Sadly though, the more countries are influenced by "super powers" like USA and "turbo-charged capitalism" the more popular individualism becomes.

Collevtivism is such an attractive idea, and I think people should try to achieve this more, because I think solidarity to an extent is actually an important feature of human nature. Sadly, it's always alot easier to think about yourself and your immediate family and this is understandable too.

[Dhavlos]

I think it is because all we have ever known is a neoliberal individualist world...there is not cold war or 'socialist' representation anymore....i think in years to come, we may see a backlash from our generation against teh neoliberal 'ideals'...hell, its kind of happening now with the whole aniti-globalisation/USA thing.

[turkcyp]

The collective activity is a major component in our current life. Even though the necessity of collective activity can be debatable in every aspect of our lives).

The question is whether we draw the line between the balances between collective behaviors vs. individual one.

Even the most sophisticated establishments of so called evil capitalism needs collective activity for their survival. Unlike many thinks capitalism is not against collectivism. But it rather tries to limit the collectivism to context of individual benefit. In other words collectivism is justified on the grounds that it benefits its constituents individually.

But I believe there should be a line drawn to this collectivism. Because the institutions we form collectively like communities, states, capitalist companies, nations etc. etc. after some time start loosing their purpose and instead of serving the individuals that founded them they serve themselves or in other words they serve the few among those founded them that can control the collective institution.

The states we form start imposing its own will (or let’s say the views of those who control it) over its citizens and curb individual liberties. The nations we found impose their version of reality on us. The capitalist companies we found impose the will of those who control the company (mainly managers and some shareholders) over the others.

The line should be set very delicately that we neither kill the collective spirit of human beings but at the same time prevent him/her be enslaved by the system as well.

In this aspect J.J Rousseau views seem to be opposing to that of mine, but in reality he is one thinker that I believe is misunderstood most. I think people managed to distort his views about human beings and society so much that those same views are now used to support collective ideas like nationalism, socialism, etc. etc.

Either his views are contradictory to each other or distorted by some. He claims that men is very peaceful in nature by society brings the worst in him. But at the same time he seemed to claim that for peaceful existence one should submit to the will of society. I see a major contradiction in this. Also his views are very at odds with John Locke who actually probably started the enlightenment with his views about legitimacy of government, and the need for social contract. That is why I think the later (that his views are distorted) is more probable.

On the other hand I think the views of Thoreau in “Civil Disobedience” is very clear to me, and I found myself very drawn to those views.

[Dhavlos]

Im not questioning capitalism...rather , i dont like the aspect, of biritsh society at least, of a lack of 'community'...whenther it be on your road, in your town, or as a nation as a whole.

I beleive, that since the 1980s, the balance towards the individual has tilted too much, and this needs to be readdressed, by no means do i mean a return ot Trade union vs government, but merely, a return to more 'community' values. Where you resepct your community, your elders and people around you, rather than the dog-eat-dog world, that Britain, at least, has become.

[thebrix]

Dhavlos wrote: Im not questioning capitalism...rather , i dont like the aspect, of biritsh society at least, of a lack of 'community'...whenther it be on your road, in your town, or as a nation as a whole.

I beleive, that since the 1980s, the balance towards the individual has tilted too much, and this needs to be readdressed, by no means do i mean a return ot Trade union vs government, but merely, a return to more 'community' values. Where you resepct your community, your elders and people around you, rather than the dog-eat-dog world, that Britain, at least, has become.

As someone who came from a small town where everyone knew everyone else, including those who had no business doing so, I know there is a dark side to "community". (All the flaps and panics about identity cards, CCTV and whatever else always amuse me; the collective - with no government in sight - is a far more efficient tyranny).

Hurrah for the anonymity and privacy of London!

[turkcyp]

Dear Dhavlos,

You see I guess that is where I differ. I understand the nice sentimental attachment of nice community values, and appreciate and support them, but only if those values could come without attachments to them.

Why can't you have those values but at the same time refuse the social stigmas that the same community imposes on you. You see it is the same communities or social networks that gives you those good values and the bad ones that promotes things like gender inequality or homophobia or ethnic division.

We have to find a way of achieving those nice values and clean the bad ones. But the collective group’s attitude towards those individuals is like “Take it or leave it. It’s all or nothing.”

And there lies our dilemma. I think many people like me are very drawn to some of those nice values but at the same time do not want to carry the baggage that comes with it and therefore decides to reduce their participation into collective activities to essentials, and try to achieve those values through self-improvement rather than imposition from collective community or nation.

The question remains whether we can achieve those values through self-improvement. I believe we can but the effectiveness of this approach I agree is debatable.

[Crash Test Dummy]

Turbo-Charged Individualism help a country move forward. You either join in or get left behind. The vast majority join and economically the country is better off, thus increasing the standard of living.

I know people get exploited but there are even more people who from being poor, neglected and exploited made it to the big time.

Plus the more you work the more you get, no time or space for scroungers