www.talkcyprus.org

[cannedmoose]

It seems we're ignoring this particularly difficult issue for some reason. Here are my own thoughts on it, which I'm sure won't go down well with some of you, nonetheless, hopefully it will get a debate going on how to deal with the settlers. This debate excludes any mention of settlers living in pre-1974 Greek Cypriot-owned properties as that is another issue.

1. Turkish nationals residing in Cyprus between 1964 and 2002 would be given the option of adopting Cypriot citizenship. Those that choose not to do so would be given 12 months leave to remain before being required to leave the island. Those failing to leave after this time would be subject to normal deportation procedures.
2. Those who acquired residency after 2002 would be offered 12 months leave to remain before being required to leave the island. Where these individuals demonstrably provide an economic benefit to the island (i.e. through ownership of businesses employing X number of people), they will have the right during this period to apply for a business visa allowing them leave to remain in the country. Those failing to meet the criteria would be required to leave the island.
3. Children of Turkish nationals born in Cyprus after 2002 would be eligible to apply for citizenship, however, this eligibility would not apply to their parents.
4. The cost of repatriation of settlers would be met equally by the Turkish government, with matched funding from the EU.

These are just a few points that I've come up with so far. Any perspectives welcome. I know it's a touchy issue so I'll be interested to hear what you think. Please remember that Property is another issue entirely, we're simply talking about the settlers presence as human beings here, not the property that some are living in, that should be a different thread.

[detailer]

cannedmoose, I didnt get your proposal well. do you you suggest to give citizenships to everyone who came before 2002?

[cannedmoose]

detailer wrote: cannedmoose, I didnt get your proposal well. do you you suggest to give citizenships to everyone who came before 2002?

I propose to offer citizenship to everyone who came before 2002 yes. If they don't take it, they would be required to return to Turkey.

[brother]

I find the 2002 date a little to near the present and would prefer a maximumof say 1998 maybe at best.

[cannedmoose]

I chose 2002 because that was the year the 1st AP was proposed unless I'm mistaken on dates.

To be honest, I think many of the recent settlers might take advantage of the Cypriot citizenship offer in order to gain the right to settle elsewhere in the EU since Cypriot citizens aren't subject to the same quotas as other new member states or indeed the restrictions on Turkish citizens migration.

[brother]

I understand your ideas moosey but i am also pragmatic enough to accept upto a certain time but 2002 is just not doing it for me.

[detailer]

moose, I dont' think Turkish Cypriot will oppose this but Greek Cypriot will not like it definetely.

[cannedmoose]

I know, but I think it's highly unlikely that any solution where all, or even the majority of the settlers have to leave, will be accepted by either the Turkish Cypriots or Turkey.

[Dhavlos]

my idea is that only settlers who have married Turkish Cypriots and their children should be given cypriot nationality.

All the rest, from 1974 onwards either:
a) given financial incentives to go back to turkey, paid for by turkey(as they are the reason most are there- i may be wrong correct me if so)

OR

should be given work permits for X years(2 or 3) during that time, they can apply for cypriot citizenship through the correct channels, and it should give them enough time to do so. They can get all the benefits of being economic migrants etc... but not as asylum seekers or actual cypriot citizens until they get their cypriot passport, so-to-speak.


I think this is acceptable to the Greek Cypriots, its more of a compromise than what most of 'em beleive(that they should all go back to turkey)

[magikthrill]

WHAT will be rejected by Greek Cypriots will be the amount of settlers who have priority in living in their (Greek Cypriot) homes over the Greek Cypriots themselves. If settlers are on th ebottom of the list then it shouldnt be as big of a problem.

Also I would suggest a late 80s deadline/ early 90s for allowance of citizenship. all others would be allowed work permits and able to apply.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Cannedmoose,

I don't think that adopting a "Settlers should stay" approach is the way to solve it ...

Leaving aside for a moment what is popular and what is not, the departure of settlers would make sense on pragmatic grounds.

Firstly, it is impossible to grant Greek Cypriots the right of return so long as the settlers remain. Almost all settlers live on Greek Cypriot properties. Where will we get the settlers to live, if not on Greek Cypriot properties? In the forests and mountains?

Secondly, if settlers remain there will inevitably be social friction and probably also violence, between the Greek Cypriots and the Settlers. Such is human nature ...

Thirdly, if the settlers stay, and Greek Cypriots also relocate to their allotted percent in the Turkish Cypriot component state, then the true Turkish Cypriots would be a minority within the Turkish Cypriot component state: Settlers 30%, Greek Cypriots 30%, Turkish Cypriots 40%.

Fourthly, if the settlers stay there would also be excessive competition in the job market, leaving many people without a job - again, probably the Turkish Cypriots, since the settlers will have the competitive edge in agricultural labour and the construction industry, while the Greek Cypriots will have the competitive edge in white collar jobs - once they become bilingual.

Allowing the settlers to stay would only "work" in a plan where the Turkish Cypriot component state remains purely Turkish in terms of ethnic origin - like the Annan Plan. If you also want to allow for the return of Greek Cypriots and a mixing of populations, then I don't see there being room for the settlers as well ...

[Dhavlos]

in answer to MTs question about priority of housing, i feel the settlers should come last in the ladder. Greek Cypriots/Turkish Cypriots get their homes, and the settlers/'occupiers of housing(eg Greek Cypriots/Turkish Cypriots who moved after 74 into the houses of people who were 'forced' out)' should be put into the kind of refugee houses that some Greek Cypriot have been living in/lived in in the south.

[detailer]

Quote: Firstly, it is impossible to grant Greek Cypriots the right of return so long as the settlers remain. Almost all settlers live on Greek Cypriot properties. Where will we get the settlers to live, if not on Greek Cypriot properties? In the forests and mountains?

Why not?

Can't they stay if they built their own houses or they have money to build now or if Turkey pays for them?

Quote: Secondly, if settlers remain there will inevitably be social friction and probably also violence, between the Greek Cypriots and the Settlers. Such is human nature ...

Quote: Thirdly, if the settlers stay, and Greek Cypriots also relocate to their allotted percent in the Turkish Cypriot component state, then the true Turkish Cypriots would be a minority within the Turkish Cypriot component state: Settlers 30%, Greek Cypriots 30%, Turkish Cypriots 40%.

This is our problem.

Quote: Allowing the settlers to stay would only "work" in a plan where the Turkish Cypriot component state remains purely Turkish in terms of ethnic origin - like the Annan Plan. If you also want to allow for the return of Greek Cypriots and a mixing of populations, then I don't see there being room for the settlers as well ...

Turkish Cypriot component state was not going to be pure Turkish Cypriot state in Annan plan. Why do you say that?

[Alexandros Lordos]

detailer wrote: Quote: Firstly, it is impossible to grant Greek Cypriots the right of return so long as the settlers remain. Almost all settlers live on Greek Cypriot properties. Where will we get the settlers to live, if not on Greek Cypriot properties? In the forests and mountains?

Why not?

Can't they stay if they built their own houses or they have money to build now or if Turkey pays for them?

If properties are purchased in the free market for the settlers, either by them or by Turkey, there is no problem in that. But I don't see it as acceptable to expropriate state land so that settlers can be relocated, at a moment when state land will already have to be expropriated in an unprecedented way to make new homes for Turkish Cypriots that will relocate and perhaps for Greek Cypriots who will not be entitled to their own homes. There is just not enough state land (at least not in locations appropriate for residential building), and in the end, even without the settlers, the state will be forced to expropriate private land as well, in order to relocate just the Cypriots.

detailer wrote: Quote: Secondly, if settlers remain there will inevitably be social friction and probably also violence, between the Greek Cypriots and the Settlers. Such is human nature ...

Quote: Thirdly, if the settlers stay, and Greek Cypriots also relocate to their allotted percent in the Turkish Cypriot component state, then the true Turkish Cypriots would be a minority within the Turkish Cypriot component state: Settlers 30%, Greek Cypriots 30%, Turkish Cypriots 40%.

This is our problem.

Yes, it is our problem ...

Especially the issue about social friction and potential for violence - how can you say that this is just your problem, and "none of our business"?

As for the Turkish Cypriots becoming a minority in their own constituent state - that's your own look out. If after all these years of struggling for self-determination, you can accept to be "sandwiched" in this way between the Greek Cypriots and the settlers - well, that is indeed your own look-out ...

detailer wrote: Quote: Allowing the settlers to stay would only "work" in a plan where the Turkish Cypriot component state remains purely Turkish in terms of ethnic origin - like the Annan Plan. If you also want to allow for the return of Greek Cypriots and a mixing of populations, then I don't see there being room for the settlers as well ...

Turkish Cypriot component state was not going to be pure Turkish Cypriot state in Annan plan. Why do you say that?

My friend, the Annan Plan was designed to appear as if Greek Cypriots would return to the Turkish Cypriot component state, but it contained innumerable obstacles to block such relocation from ever taking place. For the first 18 years, extremely strict residence rules would apply. By the end of that period, most refugees will be dead and the desire for return will be extinguished with them. In the Annan Plan, it was also not possible for a Greek Cypriot to buy any property whatsoever in the Turkish Cypriot component state - not even a flat from a Turkish Cypriot property developer - for the first 15 years after the settlement. There were no provisions for the cultural rights of Greek Cypriots in the Turkish Cypriot component state, except in the Karpasia region. Greek Cypriots living elsewhere in the Turkish Cypriot component state, would be obliged to live "as Turkish Cypriots", going to the same schools as Turkish Cypriots etc. It was also not clear if the Greek Cypriots would have the right to use their churches for worship, in areas of the Turkish Cypriot component state beyond Karpasia.

Pure Turkish Cypriot state was what Denktash always wanted. Over years of negotiation he managed to gradually impose his opinions on the development of the Plan. Clerides didn't put up much of a defense, because he never really believed that the return of Greek Cypriots to the Turkish Cypriot component state was a feasible option anyway.

[magikthrill]

I'm sorry but I felt the need to have this rewritten in a bold note. Maybe our friend Bananiot would notice it. Of course something tells me he already knows this.

Alexandros Lordos wrote:

My friend, the Annan Plan was designed to appear as if Greek Cypriots would return to the Turkish Cypriot component state, but it contained innumerable obstacles to block such relocation from ever taking place. For the first 18 years, extremely strict residence rules would apply. By the end of that period, most refugees will be dead and the desire for return will be extinguished with them. In the Annan Plan, it was also not possible for a Greek Cypriot to buy any property whatsoever in the Turkish Cypriot component state - not even a flat from a Turkish Cypriot property developer - for the first 15 years after the settlement. There were no provisions for the cultural rights of Greek Cypriots in the Turkish Cypriot component state, except in the Karpasia region. Greek Cypriots living elsewhere in the Turkish Cypriot component state, would be obliged to live "as Turkish Cypriots", going to the same schools as Turkish Cypriots etc. It was also not clear if the Greek Cypriots would have the right to use their churches for worship, in areas of the Turkish Cypriot component state beyond Karpasia.

Pure Turkish Cypriot state was what Denktash always wanted. Over years of negotiation he managed to gradually impose his opinions on the development of the Plan. Clerides didn't put up much of a defense, because he never really believed that the return of Greek Cypriots to the Turkish Cypriot component state was a feasible option anyway.