www.talkcyprus.org

[turkcyp]

I have opened this subject in the other forum as well, but it got no attention. Let's try it here this time.

You can reach and download the 1960 Constitution from here....

http://www.freefileupload.net/file.php?file=files/100306/1142029665/1960_ing.doc

Let's see your idea of changes and and improvements so that this constitution can be made better.

[turkcyp]

And I am starting with Makarios famous 13 points.

Makarios wrote:
1. The right of veto of the President and the Vice-President of the Republic to be abolished.

The right of veto of president and Vice-president should be limited. They should be able to return laws back to parliament for reconsideration but if the law is approved without any change then it should be required by the president and vice-president to be approved, living the possibility of challenging the law in Supreme Court open.

Also “line-item veto” should be possible as well.

Makarios wrote:
2. The Vice-President of the Republic to deputise for or replace the President of the Republic in case of his temporary absence or incapacity to perform his duties. In consequence, therefore, all the constitutional provisions in respect of joint action by the President and the Vice-President of the Republic to be modified accordingly.

Accepted, but this should not hinder the constitutional provisions in respect of joint by president and vice-president of the republic when both president and vice president exist in capacity, so modification of those constitutional provisions are not accepted.

Makarios wrote:
3. The Greek President of the House of Representatives and its Turkish Vice-President to be elected by the House as a whole and not as at present the President by the Greek Members of the House and the Vice-President by the Turkish Members of the House.

The Greek president of the House of Representatives and its Turkish Vice-president to be elected by the house as a whole but should require majority approval of each community’s MPs.

Makarios wrote:
4. The Vice-President of the House of Representatives to deputise for or replace the President of the House in case of his temporary absence or incapacity to perform his duties.

See answer 2.

Makarios wrote:
5. The constitutional provisions regarding separate majority for enactment of Laws by the House of Representatives to be abolished.

Rejected. Kills the pareto optimality condition.

Makarios wrote:
6. The constitutional provision regarding the establishment of separate Municipalities in the five main towns to be abolished. Provision should be made so that: (a) The Municipal Council in each of the aforesaid five towns shall consist of Greek and Turkish Councillors in proportion to the number of the Greek and Turkish inhabitants of such town by whom they shall be elected respectively. (b) In the Budget of each of such aforesaid towns, after deducting any expenditure required for common services, a percentage of the balance proportionate to the number of the Turkish inhabitants of such town shall be earmarked and disposed of in accordance with the wishes of the Turkish Councillors. 7. The constitutional provision regarding Courts consisting of Greek Judges to try Greeks and of Turkish Judges to try Turks and of mixed Courts consisting of Greek and Turkish Judges to try cases where the litigants are Greeks and Turks to be abolished.

Rendered irrelevant by today's conditions on the ground. If we end up having mixed towns as a result turning back to 1960 agreements then it can be discussed at that point.

Makarios wrote:
8. The division of the Security Forces into Police and Gendarmerie to be abolished, (Provision to be made in case the Head of the Police is a Greek the Deputy Head to be a Turk and vice versa).

Accepted.

Makarios wrote:
9. The numerical strength of the Security Forces and of the Army to be determined by Law and not by agreement between the President and the Vice-President of the Republic.

Rejected. Armed forces should be abolished completely.

Makarios wrote:
10. The proportion of the participation of Greek and Turkish Cypriots in the composition of the Public Service and of the Forces of the Republic, i.e. the Police and the Army, to be modified inproportion to the ratio of the population of Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

Accepted. Even further there should not be a provision for quotas for separate ethnicity. Instead read below answer 11.

Makarios wrote:
11. The number of the members of the Public Service Commission to be reduced from ten to either five or seven.

Accepted in the reduction in number but composition should be of equal numbers, say 3 Greek Cypriot and 3 Turkish Cypriot.

Makarios wrote:
12. All the decisions of the Public Service Commission to be taken by simple majority. If there is an allegation of discrimination on the unanimous request either of the Greek or of the Turkish members of the Commission, its Chairman to be bound to refer the matter to the Supreme Constitutional Court.

Accepted, but any member of the commission can take the discrimination issue to Supreme Court without a need of unanimous consent.

Makarios wrote:
13. The Greek Communal Chamber to be abolished".

Rejected. Kills the bicommunal nature of the republic.

[cypezokyli]

as you ve said in another thread turkcyp, with some pareto adjustments it can be accepted imo by the Greek Cypriots. i cannot speak about Turkish Cypriots (what about the (increased) bizonality ? ) .

simple return to the 1960 doesnot solve core aspects of the cyppro as they exist today : refuggees, settlers, armies..
(or ...are you reffering only to the constitution itself , and not the whole cyppro? if that was the purpose, then sorry for complicating.. we can forget it )

[turkcyp]

cypezokyli wrote: as you ve said in another thread turkcyp, with some pareto adjustments it can be accepted imo by the Greek Cypriots. i cannot speak about Turkish Cypriots (what about the (increased) bizonality ? ) .

simple return to the 1960 doesnot solve core aspects of the cyppro as they exist today : refuggees, settlers, armies..
(or ...are you reffering only to the constitution itself , and not the whole cyppro? if that was the purpose, then sorry for complicating.. we can forget it )

I am not trying to find a comprehensive solution here...

Of course any comprehensive solution has to address many other problems like refugees, property, settlers, etc. etc.

I am simply thinking the constitutional aspect of things. We have to start from somewhere and we do not have to start from scratch. I was going to offer to change AP5 to acceptable levels but knowing the Greek Cypriot resistant for that I chose 1960 Constitution as a starting basis to work on.

If people can start just listing the points they want to change in 1960 constitution then we can comment on them in detail. Instead of working on vague solutions that is been proposed here over and over.

We can do some sort of give and take...

For example some people may desire bizonallity inscribed as two states they can make those recommendations and see if it is acceptable or not.

[repulsewarrior]

Here are my observations:


Quote: Makarios wrote:

5. The constitutional provisions regarding separate majority for enactment of Laws by the House of Representatives to be abolished.


A Bi-cameral Legislature, where there is a chamber to represent the population proportionally, having a speaker, and agreeing by consensus, as well as a governing chamber where there are an equal number of seats from each community to fill.

IMO, by demographics, in the very long run, it is the Greek speaking community, who in the future will benefit from this set of chambers.


Quote: Makarios wrote:

6. The constitutional provision regarding the establishment of separate Municipalities in the five main towns to be abolished. Provision should be made so that: (a) The Municipal Council in each of the aforesaid five towns shall consist of Greek and Turkish Councillors in proportion to the number of the Greek and Turkish inhabitants of such town by whom they shall be elected respectively. (b) In the Budget of each of such aforesaid towns, after deducting any expenditure required for common services, a percentage of the balance proportionate to the number of the Turkish inhabitants of such town shall be earmarked and disposed of in accordance with the wishes of the Turkish Councillors. 7. The constitutional provision regarding Courts consisting of Greek Judges to try Greeks and of Turkish Judges to try Turks and of mixed Courts consisting of Greek and Turkish Judges to try cases where the litigants are Greeks and Turks to be abolished.

I would not dismiss this article so lightly, because from another point of view it holds valueable principals from which to work out a new article, the reintegration of returning Cypriots, and the potential for new settements on government land will be necessary. To spot the island with the people who so desire, as a minority in one state or the other, they will also be served by their own community in another communitiy close by. In our committment to the right of return, there is a wide potential for the development of our return to peaceful co-habitation, in that, in each zone there will be a need for specialised services, and the desire for settlement of these newly created territories, town/satelite.


I believe the Communal chambers should be radiated to be government authorities themselves, who will collect the bulk of the taxes from its electors, administering their affairs, and their provision, in accordance with the individual rights that the central government protects, sovereign, for all the people.

Also, I do not believe it is necessary for the President to be Greek. The President is the leader of the Party which fills the greatest number of seats in the upper house that I described, elected Universally by each citizen voting twice for one Greek representative and one Turkish repsesentative.

[pg]

turkcyp wrote:
Let's see your idea of changes and and improvements so that this constitution can be made better.

In general it depends on what would happen with the property issue and bi-zonality. Meaning, if we assume full right of return and skip the bi-zonality, then there would be one set of changes.

BTW, here are also some background thoughts from Makarios for the 13 points http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/13_points.htm - it makes interesting reading. I may point out I have never been a fan of Big Mak, but reading the background argumentation I think the following points make sense:

1, 2, 4, 5 (because of the last sentences of the explanations), 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (but make it less political and more professional).

I do not agree with point 13.

No strong point of view on point 3, since I do not think they have much power anyway.

That was some thoughts with relation to those points, since you brought it up. It seems it is mainly on point 5 we differ. It may be useful to look at this:

Quote: Article 6 [No Discrimination of Communities]
Subject to the express provisions of this Constitution no law or decision of the House of Representatives or of any of the Communal Chambers, and no act or decision of any organ, authority or person in the Republic exercising executive power or administrative functions, shall discriminate against any of the two Communities or any person as a person or by virtue of being a member of a Community.

See also article 51. Note that what we are talking about is article 78.

Quote: Article 78 []
1. The laws and the decisions of the House of Representatives shall be passed by a simple majority vote of the Representatives present and voting.
2. Any modification of the Electoral Law and the adoption of any law relating to the municipalities and of any law imposing duties or taxes shall require a separate simple majority of the Representatives elected by the Greek and the Turkish Communities respectively taking part in the vote.

There is a general clean-up needed too in the constitution, like article 2.7, 4, 5, , but perhaps we can leave those to last...

[Birkibrisli]

I like the idea of not starting from scratch,turkcyp...
The 1960 consititution and the 13 points are a good point to start from.
As you say it wouldn't be difficult to change these proposals to make them acceptable to both sides. I bet you if right of return is guaranteed and people are given a choice of return or compensation for their properties,the numbers in reality would be such that they could be accommodated without too much trouble,even considering the settler issue.So perhaps following the lead of Big Makarios we could let him guide us out of our present mess.With a bit of courage,a bit of more trust,and plenty of faith in our humanity will see us through,imho.

[repulsewarrior]

Quote: 13. The Greek Communal Chamber to be abolished. ... This provision appears to have its origin in the concept that the Republic ought not to interfere with religious, educational, cultural and other cognate matters, the administration of which should be regarded as a safeguarded right in the case of the minority. When this concept was extended to the Greek majority the result was to place the entire education of the country outside the sphere of government economic and social policies and to create financial problems and other difficulties for the Communal Chambers, reflecting adversely on the State. With a view to minimizing these difficulties the Communal Chambers should be abolished and a new system should be devised providing/or their substitution by appropriate authorities and institutions. ... In conclusion I would stress that it is not my intention by any of these proposals to deprive the Turkish community of their just rights and interests or proper safeguards. The purpose is to remove certain causes of friction and obstacles to the smooth working of the State. The main object of a Constitution should be to secure, within its framework, the proper functioning of the State ...

ARCHBISHOP MAKARIOS, President of the Republic of Cyprus

This is the most significant article of the thirteen. It is the biggest flaw, and I believe it reveals a big error in Makarios's policy as the leader of the Republic.

Historically, it is easier to look back. There never was a Greek Communal Chamber, if there had been this level of government, the bureaucracy serving the T/C today would have much more credibility. and G/C would have a tool to place them even closer to the elected who they would want to represent their aims.

It is not too difficult to imagine under today's circumstances the island divided in two States, or Provinces, or Communal Authorities, subject to the superior authority of the Central Government, which exists to be a strong defender of the individual citizen, as a Nation. their
representation Internationally.

Most importantly, the modern state requires its freedom from ethnicity. If anything, in our political context, the two ethnicities provide for us a means to test the impartiality of our leaders, in our highest level of government, above all, for Basic Human Rights, with a governing chamber, of equal seating, by votes of majority, each representative having won his/her election by Universal Suffrage, as I had suggested in the past.