www.talkcyprus.org

[Mete]

Bullika wrote:
Turkish cypriots can be their own worst ennemy at times. look for instance at the opposition and criticism i got for pointing out that gibrizlija as a dialect is also a language. basic knowledge of linguistics, i.e the meaning of the word dialect and language and the relationship between the two do not quite fit into peoples nationalist ideals, so like mete they present their gutt reaction, and without thinking things through logically.

Dude, I'm the most unnationalist person you can find in Cyprus. Just look at my posts in this forum. Did I ever make one nationalist remark? I always defended brotherhood of Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. You're labelling me a nationalist just because I don't agree with your silly "Gibrizlija" theory. This is absurd.
Bullika wrote:
if you read what he says, we Londrali" turkish-cypriots dont speak or have any right to claim to speak the turkish-cypriot dialect otherwise known as gibrizlija.

You obviously have an understanding problem...I stressed many times that what you (Londoners) guys speak is also Cypriot Turkish and you mix in some English words in your daily conversations which is OK! The English words don't make you less Cypriot or they don't make you not speak Cypriot Turkish but these ENGLISH words are ENGLISH not Cypriot-Turkish. You get it now or do you want me to repeat again?
Dhavlos wrote:
also, kibrizlija as a seperate language...somehow..i dont think so, i think you arguements are going round in circles...if you can find 'proper' scholars/linguists who agree with you, then i may be inclined to accept what you are saying...otherwise, your just sounding like a madman!

Finally someone makes sense, thanks!
Bullika wrote:
I havent started my PhD yet but I think its absurd to wait until I ve been given this title of Dr before I can be taken seriously.

No you don't need a PhD to be taken seriously but first you have to learn to listen and stop claiming things that I never said. I don't have a PhD in linguistics but what you're claiming (that a dialect of Turkish is a seperate language) is against everything I know of languages. There are thousands of dialects all around the world. Take Chinese as an example. There are so many Chinese dialects and one dialect of Chinese can be very different from another. They are nevertheless all dialects of Chinese.

Same with Cypriot Turkish. 90% of the words we use is Turkish...Yes we pronounce them differently, yes we use some unique Cypriot words but the difference between Istanbul Turkish and Cypriot Turkish is not that much to make Cypriot Turkish a seperate language. If you go in that direction, Karadenizli Turkish (Turkish spoken around Black sea), Dogulu Turkish (Eastern Turkish) are all seperate languages..Is that what you're saying?
Bullika wrote:
I have always got on well with you and liked you but i find this insulting and hurtful. I feel it is a personal attack on me that people like Mete would cheer to and have a laugh at my expense.

Dude, I'm not an evil person waiting to attack people...I have no problem with you. I just completely disagree with your little theory. You're taking it way too personally.
brother wrote:
This said i have to dissagree with mete on that point where the London Turkish Cypriot do mix English with Turkish Cypriot dialect we very rarely manage to transfer it over to the Turkish Cypriot in Cyprus but instead divert back to our original speaking of gibislica.

Hi brother, I didn't mean to offend you or anything. I also don't believe that Londoners transfer English words to Turkish Cypriot dialect in Cyprus. Maybe very little but it's definetely not as much as Mehmet claims. Mehmet was the one who claimed that "Shopping Center", "Jewishcik" and other English words are Cypriot Turkish because Londoners use them in their daily conversations.
Dhavlos wrote:
When i hear you say kibrislija, my immediate comparison in cypriot-greek, which i dont think is a 'seperate' language in its own right...so that my be why im so 'hostile' to the view you hold. In my eyes, cypriot greek, is somewhat of an extension of greek, but is not a seperate language in its own right, so i see kibrislija that way...be me wrong or not.

You can definetely compare the similarity between Turkish and Cypriot Turkish to the similarity between Greek and Cypriot Greek. I talked about this to my Greek Cypriot friends a lot and it's pretty much the same relationship. Greek Cypriots pronounce words differently than Greeks and they have some unique Cypriot words, just like Turkish Cypriots and Turkish.
Bullika wrote:
No worries Dhavlos, its ok, I just hate it when people from Cyprus tell us diaspora Turkish Cypriots that we dont speak Gibrizlija or that we speak "bad" turkish. I find it really annoying.

One last time...What you guys speak is also Cypriot Turkish and it's not bad or anything. However you also mix in some English words in your conversations...these English words are not Turkish just because you claim them to be. Hope you really try to understand what I'm saying this time.
Bullika wrote:
n the north it goes further, it is part of a political struggle to win back our country, identity and culture. language is apart of that culture. talat used to head this campaign i think he still does, but sometimes i m not sure.

I think this is your problem. You see this Cypriot Turkish issue a pure political issue and everytime I say Cypriot Turkish is not a seperate language, you think that I'm attacking your political struggle to be different than Turkey. I also believe that Turkish Cypriots are seperate people from Turkey but I'm not going to come up with a bogus theory like yours for the sake of proving my claim! You don't have to speak a seperate language to be a seperate country..just look at Americans, British, Australians...they all speak English! (Unless you think that American, British and Australian are seperate languages)

Anyway, enough said about this topic...I'm not going to get into more discussions on this topic. I said what I believe is true.

[Bullika]

Quote: You obviously have an understanding problem...I stressed many times that what you (Londoners) guys speak is also Cypriot Turkish and you mix in some English words in your daily conversations which is OK! The English words don't make you less Cypriot or they don't make you not speak Cypriot Turkish but these ENGLISH words are ENGLISH not Cypriot-Turkish. You get it now or do you want me to repeat again?

Yes but these English words are being gradually accepted into Gibrizlija, and after a while they wont be foreign any more. This goes for all languages. Many of the foreign words in English have over-time been accepted as and as English. I stated in my last post that in Cyprus people on television in newspapers and on the street are using alot of English in their Cypriot Turkish dialect, espcially the youth, the future of northern cyprus.

Quote: No you don't need a PhD to be taken seriously but first you have to learn to listen and stop claiming things that I never said. I don't have a PhD in linguistics but what you're claiming (that a dialect of Turkish is a seperate language) is against everything I know of languages. There are thousands of dialects all around the world. Take Chinese as an example. There are so many Chinese dialects and one dialect of Chinese can be very different from another. They are nevertheless all dialects of Chinese.

Same with Cypriot Turkish. 90% of the words we use is Turkish...Yes we pronounce them differently, yes we use some unique Cypriot words but the difference between Istanbul Turkish and Cypriot Turkish is not that much to make Cypriot Turkish a seperate language. If you go in that direction, Karadenizli Turkish (Turkish spoken around Black sea), Dogulu Turkish (Eastern Turkish) are all seperate languages..Is that what you're saying?

It seems to me that you have a poor knowledge of languages and how they work. As I have stated a hundred times (you obviously did not read anyything I wrote), a separate language does not come about by measuring how different it is to the speech of other languages, there are political, historical and cultural reasons why this happens. Example: Serbian and Croatian are the same but two different languages because of religion, Belorussian and Russian for political reasons, and Norwegian and Danish after the independence of Norway from Denmark.

Gibrizlija may or may not be very different to Turkish but the decision to declare it a language is one of right not one of value. People dont sit down and say "oh this dialect spoken by Turkish Cypriots lacks this or lacks that, therefore we conclude that it has no right to declare itself a separate language". This is not how it works!

Karadeniz Turkcesi or Anadolu Turkcesi are all languages yes, in the sense that they are spoken by people, if you go into detail then they are dialects, but that does not interest me, I doubt they will be able to declare themselves separate languages because they are tied to Turkey the state, which will try to prevent it happening. But we may have the opportunity if we wanted to.

Languages are not a whole as you imagine them. in other words there is no such thing as a tree with a trunk representing Istanbul Turkish and its branches being dialects of Anatolia and the Balkans. Rather, try to picture it as a bed of mushrooms, each a different size, each different, some big and healthy, others ill and dying, others just popping up and others already picked! :D

The fact that Istanbul Turkish too started off as a dialect like Gibrizlija but through prestige, power (the seat of govt) and history it has gained importance and was declared an official or standardized languages called Yeni Turkce, this was to unify the people of the new Turkey who each spoke their own dialects and not Istanbul Turkish. The same thing happened in England, France and Germany and Spain. It is nothing new and does not make us a part of Istanbul Turkish otherwise known as Yeni Turkce or just Turkish, we have always been separate.

If we are to 'belong' to anything then it is the Yoruk Turkce dialect of Southern Anatolia from which the ancestors of many Turkish Cypriots were from. But even they have drifted and changed over 400 years.

Quote: Hi brother, I didn't mean to offend you or anything. I also don't believe that Londoners transfer English words to Turkish Cypriot dialect in Cyprus. Maybe very little but it's definetely not as much as Mehmet claims. Mehmet was the one who claimed that "Shopping Center", "Jewishcik" and other English words are Cypriot Turkish because Londoners use them in their daily conversations.

But I hear it being used on BRT and in Cyprus, people use it here too and in australia, does that not count for nothing?

Quote: You can definetely compare the similarity between Turkish and Cypriot Turkish to the similarity between Greek and Cypriot Greek. I talked about this to my Greek Cypriot friends a lot and it's pretty much the same relationship. Greek Cypriots pronounce words differently than Greeks and they have some unique Cypriot words, just like Turkish Cypriots and Turkish .

Sure you can, but I as a Turkish Cypriot want Gibrizlija to be standardized or better declared a separate language, this would compliment our state and our identity as Turkish Cypriots. We can still keep Turkish as co-official. no offence to my mainland friends. How many Greek Cypriots want their dialect to be standardized? few I believe, at the moment it the Turkish Cypriot side that celebrates its Cypriot indentity more.

Quote: One last time...What you guys speak is also Cypriot Turkish and it's not bad or anything. However you also mix in some English words in your conversations...these English words are not Turkish just because you claim them to be. Hope you really try to understand what I'm saying this time.

Overtime they will be, in fact they may already be accepted as Gibrizlija words and we dont realise it. As long as people use them, then they begin to counted as Gibrizlija too. thats why in Gibrizlija we have Cypriot Greek words how do u think they entered our dialect???

Quote: I think this is your problem. You see this Cypriot Turkish issue a pure political issue and everytime I say Cypriot Turkish is not a seperate language, you think that I'm attacking your political struggle to be different than Turkey. I also believe that Turkish Cypriots are seperate people from Turkey but I'm not going to come up with a bogus theory like yours for the sake of proving my claim! You don't have to speak a seperate language to be a seperate country..just look at Americans, British, Australians...they all speak English! (Unless you think that American, British and Australian are seperate languages)

Anyway, enough said about this topic...I'm not going to get into more discussions on this topic. I said what I believe is true.


You are absolutely right, you hit the nail on the head and I wont deny it but language issues are intrinsically linked to politics. Throughout history this has been the case. Saving Gibrizlija is saving our identity Mete. In our case to protect our dialect with its subtle differences to Southern Anatolian dialect, means we have to protect it by law, by making it official, standardized and in everyday use. that is the best solution and the only realistic one to save our beautiful dialect.

Have a nice day!