www.talkcyprus.org

[cannedmoose]

'If Turkey Fulfills Conditions, Negotiations will Begin'

Federal Assembly Deputy President Wolfgang Schaeuble of the German Unity Parties (CDU/CSU) has said that if Turkey has fulfilled the conditions then European Union (EU) membership negotiations will begin.

Schaeuble, part of the leadership team promoted by the Christian Democratic Party (CDU) leader Angela Merkel in Berlin on August 17 remarked in his interview published in Frankfurter Rundschau: "If Turkey fulfills the conditions, ÊU negotiations will begin. I hope this becomes true. Negotiations will take 10 years and whether or not people who oppose full membership like me will become apparent."

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050818&hn=23149

[cannedmoose]

Finns are not entirely convinced that Turkey should join the EU, despite the fact that a Finnish commissioner is in charge of further enlargement.

A new poll, carried out for Finnish MTV3, shows that 47 percent of Finns are against admitting Turkey into the union, 36 percent are in favour and 18 percent are undecided.

Negotiations with Turkey are set to start on 3 October, but scepticism towards Turkish EU membership is mounting in a number of EU member states

French prime minister Dominique de Villepin earlier this month called on Turkey to recognise Cyprus before the talks are opened.

The issue is also featuring in Germany's electoral campaign.

Full article at: http://euobserver.com/?aid=19708&rk=1

[gabs]

if turkey were a smaller country, say with a population of five million, would there still be such opposition to her eu membership application?

[erolz]

gabs wrote: if turkey were a smaller country, say with a population of five million, would there still be such opposition to her eu membership application?

Almost certainly not.

Turkey's size population wise is both the EU' fear and it's hope.

As a fundamental economic and capitalist union, the EU needs ever growing markets and population to produce and consume. The orginal countries of the EU have saturated marketrs and stagnat population growth. They need new members to keep stoking the capitalist need for growth. Turkey's size and growth population wise and it's relatively un saturated markets make it an ideal 'solution' to this problem for the EU.

The size and growth population wise of Turkey and it's levels of realtive wealth per head of population also scare the EU.

If Turkey was 5 million people it would not have the same attractions or the same negatives for the EU imo.

[cannedmoose]

I agree with Erol's assessment, apart from his depiction of the EU as some sort of capitalist monster with a need to 'consume' new countries. If Turkey was 1/10th of its size, there would not be a problem absorbing it into the Union. However, integrating a nation of 70million people, much of it undeveloped relative to European levels, will be far from easy and will test the Union's structures to the limit. From the very instant that it joins, Turkey would become a leading member state of the EU, with votes equivalent to Germany. It would thus introduce a new dynamic into the EU, outside of the France-Germany axis that has driven the Union since 1957. I'm sure that one of the French concerns is that Turkey will align with the UK and constitute a competing axis for the direction of the Union.

The second concern for many people is that a sizeable number of these 70million people will pack up and head for Europe as soon as they could do so. I think this is wrong on two counts:

1. Given that Turkey will not enter the EU for at least 10-15 years, should Turkish economic growth continue at present levels, the earnings gap between Turkey and the richer countries should narrow and people should begin to realise that Turkey is becoming an investment hotspot and that opportunities are available to them. I therefore think we'll see substantial migration within Turkey, towards Istanbul and the Western and southern coasts.
2. I think it's more than likely that the same quota system applied by many countries to workers from the new members (excluding Cyprus and Malta), will be written into the agreement by the EU as a temporary derogation in Turkey's case. Thus, we won't see millions of workers flooding the EU employment market, the influx will be managed and limited and should slow as Turkey's economy progresses.

[city]

I think Erol and Moose are right, however, apart from politicians we should not forget what the people of the present EU members think. As far as I know one of their growing concerns comes so to say from history. Its that Europe has a western and christian history and now, having 70 million people joining, that are mostly muslim, creates sort of discomfort if you understand what I mean. Again that would be not an issue if Turkey had a smaller population.
There is lots of people imo that do not see that as an enrichment of european culture, but as seeing it being driven away from its roots.
Not to mention that the vast majority has minor to none knowledge about other religion and are only being fed (information wise) by the media which is not very balanced source, as surely everybody here will agree.

[cannedmoose]

Agreed city mou, plus the vast majority of people see Turkey as an 'outsider'. Even those who have an appreciation of European history would largely regard the Ottoman interaction with Europe as one of 'invasion and occupation' as opposed to Ottoman civilisation being a part of European history. This is certainly what I was taught at school. So, I think many people still have this latent fear of being swamped by a new 'hoarde' from the east. It's not one that I share as I think Turkey will bring a lot to the EU and vice-versa. My only concern stems from the fact that Turkey is in reality two countries in one - in much of western Turkey, it's not that different to being in Greece or elsewhere in eastern Europe, but further to the west, the country becomes unrecognisable in European terms. While this isn't a problem for me culturally, absorbing people into Europe that have no concept of being 'European' (which was demonstrated by a recent Eurobarometer survey on Turkey), could be.

[Crash Test Dummy]

http://www.eubusiness.com/East_Europe/050808164257.076c1w7r

it about turkey and the EU. business area.

[gabs]

70 million turkish muslims in Europe causes discomfort.

well ok ..................correct me if i am wrong but didnt the turks play a big role in providing a necessary labour force to help rebuild Germany from its bombed ruins of WW2?

[cannedmoose]

gabs wrote: 70 million turkish muslims in Europe causes discomfort.

well ok ..................correct me if i am wrong but didnt the turks play a big role in providing a necessary labour force to help rebuild Germany from its bombed ruins of WW2?

I agree gabs, but we must face reality and reality is that a sizeable percentage of people across Europe are wary of Turkish membership for that very reason. It's not a feeling that I particularly sympathise with, or indeed share, but it's a real one and not to address it is to potentially let it become the dominant argument of the anti-Turkey camp.

Regardless of whether people recognise the role played by Turks in post-war construction, it's evident that in Germany itself this role is generally not appreciated. I'm not sure if the law has been revoked, but it certainly used to be the case that Turkish residents of Germany, and even their children born in Germany were ineligible for German citizenship because their 'blood was not German'. I'm sure City will be able to confirm if this is still the case.

As I said in a previous post, when I studied history at school, the only dealings with Ottoman Empire in the syllabus were its position as the sick man of Europe when looking at the Eastern Question. Similarly, we were also taught that the Turks sided with the Central Powers during WWI (Gallipoli and all that). In other words, the integral role of Turkey in influencing modern European society (particularly in south-eastern Europe) were totally neglected. It's going to take a long and proactive education campaign to dispel the negative attitudes that many Europeans have towards 'the Turk'. Hopefully it is one that will succeed. But it will only succeed if the Turkish government is seen as also educating its citizenry to be and act European, which will also mean a fundamental change for the way Turkey thinks about itself and the way the country is run.

[brother]

Quote: I'm not sure if the law has been revoked, but it certainly used to be the case that Turkish residents of Germany, and even their children born in Germany were ineligible for German citizenship because their 'blood was not German'. I'm sure City will be able to confirm if this is still the case.



:shock: I really find that hard to believe, i am not saying i do not believe you moosey but that would be the most racist and backward way of thinking i have ever heard.

[city]

gabs wrote: 70 million turkish muslims in Europe causes discomfort.

well ok ..................correct me if i am wrong but didnt the turks play a big role in providing a necessary labour force to help rebuild Germany from its bombed ruins of WW2?

Firstly, let me make clear that this is not my point of view, I just want to mention how people might feel and what are their concerns.

Yes, gabs, you are right, Germany "called them in" after WW2 cause the country needed the manpower. And we still have lots of turkish people here, some even third or fourth generation. Most of them still keep their culture/heritage/language but are doing fine here and some do not assimilate very well. That might be caused by what Moose correctly mentioned:

Moose wrote: Regardless of whether people recognise the role played by Turks in post-war construction, it's evident that in Germany itself this role is generally not appreciated.

This is unfortunately true. The general reception of people here is not one that honours those immigrants contribution to the german economy, regardless if post WW or today.

Moose wrote: I'm not sure if the law has been revoked, but it certainly used to be the case that Turkish residents of Germany, and even their children born in Germany were ineligible for German citizenship because their 'blood was not German'. I'm sure City will be able to confirm if this is still the case.

To the best of my knowledge the situation is as follows:
If anyone wants german citizenship they have to give up their old one. Under geman laws dual citizenship is not allowed. (that blood-thing I've never heard of, must be very old)
I remember there were a lot of discussions etc about this a few years ago, but to be honest I would have to investigate if there was any changes resulting from that.