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[Xenos 2Fan]

Could Talat be for real? Why isn't he being given a chance by TPap?


ANKARA - Turkish Daily News


In the second key rendezvous of his visit to the United States, Turkish Cypriot President Mehmet Ali Talat met with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to discuss efforts to give a boost to the stalled reunification process in Cyprus.

Talat requested Annan take steps to initiate a new settlement process after his first plan for the island failed last year because it was rejected by Greek Cypriots.

The Turkish Cypriot leader wants Greek Cypriots to formally propose the changes they want to see in the Annan plan so that solution efforts can begin on the island.

This does not sound like a man who is playing games imo. I never heard of a Greek Cypriot leader asking Turkish Cypriots what they would like to see happen. I'm sure Kifeas will have an answer for though.


Talat met with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Friday at the State Department. His invitation to Washington by Rice is an attempt to ease the isolation of Turkish Cypriots and is indicative of the U.S. support for a political settlement in Cyprus.

The Greek Cypriot administration, which is the internationally recognized government of the island, opposed the Rice-Talat meeting.

Yesterday, Kipros Christosimides, the Greek Cypriot government spokesman, protested Talat's visit, saying it would strengthen “Talat's separatist tendencies.” He also said the visit was aimed at upgrading the status of the “illegal state,” referring to the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (KKTC).

After talks with Rice, Talat said there was an appreciation on the part of Washington for the Turkish Cypriot stance and maintained that Annan's plan remained on the table. “Our ultimate goal is to find a solution to the Cyprus problem, to unify the island,” Talat said. “Our quest for lifting the isolation is to really safeguard a solution to the Cyprus problem.”

[-mikkie2-]

In fact Papadopoulos has asked why the Turkish Cypriot's don't table their requested changes to the UN plan!

Papadopoulos HAS given a list of things in the plan that he is not happy with and he WANTS to negotiate to resolve these issues. The UN is AWARE of what Papadopoulos wants and Predegrast shuttled between the two sides in order to take views. And guess what? There is a CHASM between the sides according to him.

Therefore, Talat is aware of what we want, the UN is also but it seems that the chasm is too wide, meaning that the Turkish Cypriot's are not really interested in negotiating unless it is only minor changes.

So are the Turkish Cypriot's really interested in taking on board the concerns of the Greek Cypriot's or are they simply paying lip service to the calls for renewed negotiations?

[Xenos 2Fan]

-mikkie2- wrote: In fact Papadopoulos has asked why the Turkish Cypriot's don't table their requested changes to the UN plan!

Papadopoulos HAS given a list of things in the plan that he is not happy with and he WANTS to negotiate to resolve these issues.


What are these issues Mikkie? Are they reasonable? And don't tell me that all soldiers etc..etc..

The UN is AWARE of what Papadopoulos wants and Predegrast shuttled between the two sides in order to take views. And guess what? There is a CHASM between the sides according to him.

Fine! There is a chasm but who is creating it? Are you telling me that the Turkish Cypriots are happy with their lot in life? Cut off from the rest of the world? These people voted "YES" because they want a solution. They are reaching out but you insist on punishing them. That is what it all comes down to my friend.

Yes there are Turkish Cypriots that are "allowed" to work in the south but they are treated like second class citizens just like Mexicans are treated like second class citizens in America. If you really want a solution do not look to your politicians. Look at your business owners and ask them to take a leap of faith and pay the Turkish Cypriots fairly. This would be a monumental step forward. You need to build trust at grass root levels. TPAP sure as hell isn't accomplishing anything.

Therefore, Talat is aware of what we want, the UN is also but it seems that the chasm is too wide, meaning that the Turkish Cypriot's are not really interested in negotiating unless it is only minor changes.

Perhaps what you want is unfair. Let me ask you something. Have you ever sat down with a Turkish Cypriot over a beer and asked him/her why they voted YES to the annan plan?


So are the Turkish Cypriot's really interested in taking on board the concerns of the Greek Cypriot's or are they simply paying lip service to the calls for renewed negotiations?

When there is a possibility to negotiate and you do not take advantage of the possibility you lose my friend. Stop trying to guess if it's a genuine gesture or not. You and Kifeas are so bloody synical man. Have a little faith. Perhaps some of you Greek Cypriots just don't have what it takes. I am glad that all of your compatriots don't think as you and Kifeas do. Cyprus would be in a world of shit. I think that it already is.

[bg_turk]

-mikkie2- wrote: In fact Papadopoulos has asked why the Turkish Cypriot's don't table their requested changes to the UN plan!

But Turkish Cypriots have accepted the Annan Plan. So you may just consider the current form of the Annan Plans to be a proposal for a solution Turkish Cypriots and Talat are putting on the table.

Quote:
Papadopoulos HAS given a list of things in the plan that he is not happy with and he WANTS to negotiate to resolve these issues. The UN is AWARE of what Papadopoulos wants and Predegrast shuttled between the two sides in order to take views. And guess what? There is a CHASM between the sides according to him.

Therefore, Talat is aware of what we want, the UN is also but it seems that the chasm is too wide, meaning that the Turkish Cypriot's are not really interested in negotiating unless it is only minor changes.

So are the Turkish Cypriot's really interested in taking on board the concerns of the Greek Cypriot's or are they simply paying lip service to the calls for renewed negotiations?

As far as I understand the proposals that Papadopoulos put forward require a full return to "legality" by which he wants all refugees to return to their homes, expulsion of all settlers and return to the Republic of Cyprus constiution of 1960. I do not doubt that you view these things as just demands, but they are hardly in accordance with what has been previously agreed between Denktash and Clerides for a BBF solution.
My belief is that Papadopoulos would never accept a solution that would dilute the greek character of the Cypriot state. He does not want unification with Turkish Cypriots, he simply wants to restore as much land as possible so he is trying to hold out and pressure Turkey through its EU membership to make more concessions.

That proposal that Papadopolous put forward could as well be interpreted as a request for complete capitulation for Turkey. What kind of compromise is he making for a solution? His demands are maximalists, in fact there is hardly anything left to demand.

[-mikkie2-]

Quote: When there is a possibility to negotiate and you do not take advantage of the possibility you lose my friend.

Lose? We pretty much lost everything in the north. You people want the shirts off our backs as well.

The Annan plan in Turkey was hailed as 'Solution A la Turka'. It was not hailed as a 'win-win' for both sides. It was hailed as a victory for Turkey.

You go figure!

It is obvious that Turkish Cypriot's don't really care about the fears of the Greek Cypriot's. Otherwise they would be willing to sit down and talk about all the issues.

[-mikkie2-]

And as an aside, I hope the Turkish Cypriot's take note of the ousting of Ali Erel from the Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce.

He was being forced to allow produce from Turkey to be labelled as produce from the north of Cyprus to be sold in the south.

The only thing legal that remains in the north of Cyprus (the TCCC) has now fallen in the hands of the politicians to be used as a political tool to serve the interests of Turkey. It seems tha the EU will now be keeping a very close eye on the chamber. Don't cry wolf what the EU pulls the plug on the certification of goods by the TCCC in the future. I hope you are proud!

[Mete]

mikkie2 wrote:
It is obvious that Turkish Cypriot's don't really care about the fears of the Greek Cypriot's. Otherwise they would be willing to sit down and talk about all the issues.

Dude, how can Turkish Cypriots care about the fears of Greek Cypriots when Greek Cypriots refuse to tell us what their fears are in the first place? Talat has been asking T-Pap for months for the changes he wants to see in the Annan plan. T-Pap refuses to even meet with Talat, let alone list the changes and Turkish Cypriots get blamed for this too now?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Xenos 2Fan wrote:
The Turkish Cypriot leader wants Greek Cypriots to formally propose the changes they want to see in the Annan plan so that solution efforts can begin on the island.


I am not sure the "formal approach" is the way to go at the moment ... the confidence gap and positions gap is too wide, such that any "formal presentation of suggested changes" will be dismissed and ridiculed out of hand. We got a foreshadowing of this with the Prendergast visit - who orally told Talat what Tassos was asking and Talat dismissed it out of hand.

The only way ahead would be a series of informal and unofficial meetings between Tassos and Talat, such that will allow both to openly speak their minds and understand "where the other is coming from". Only if the two of them develop the undergirding of a working relationship can we proceed to the much more "stressful" stage of formally requesting and formally negotiating changes to the Plan.

I acknowledge that at the moment Tassos is mostly to blame that such meetings are not happening - I know Talat would welcome it. But it seems Tassos is concerned that a meeting outside the UN framework would be a type of "upgrading of the illegal regime" - though I fail to see how he reaches that conclusion.

Perhaps one way out would be for the UN to invite the two to a series of "preliminary meetings" at UN headquarters in Nicosia, and when they turn up just leave the two of them by themselves to discuss "off the record" :wink:

[Birkibrisli]

-mikkie2- wrote: And as an aside, I hope the Turkish Cypriot's take note of the ousting of Ali Erel from the Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce.

He was being forced to allow produce from Turkey to be labelled as produce from the north of Cyprus to be sold in the south.

The only thing legal that remains in the north of Cyprus (the TCCC) has now fallen in the hands of the politicians to be used as a political tool to serve the interests of Turkey. It seems tha the EU will now be keeping a very close eye on the chamber. Don't cry wolf what the EU pulls the plug on the certification of goods by the TCCC in the future. I hope you are proud!

Mikkie,the writing was on the wall for Ali Erel,as some of us were insinuating in another thread.He paid the price for speaking his own mind on a lot of issues,and showing up Talat and co.There is one civil organisation left which is not under CTP control,and that is the Secondary Teachers Federation,so perhaps the EU should keep an eye on them as well.It won't be long before moves are made to bring them into line.
Talat's whole game is motivated by opening the EU door for Turkey,an act initiated and perfected by Turkey,UK and the USA.The referendum was orchestrated to yeild a YES vote in the North and a NO vote in the South.It went perfectly to script.The rest of the script involves dragging the whole conflict out for as long as they can to entrench the partition and to allow the USA to get a real foothold in the North.The sooner we all realise this the better for our pour counrty. :cry:

[erolz]

Birkibrisli wrote:
Mikkie,the writing was on the wall for Ali Erel,as some of us were insinuating in another thread.He paid the price for speaking his own mind on a lot of issues,and showing up Talat and co.There is one civil organisation left which is not under CTP control,and that is the Secondary Teachers Federation,so perhaps the EU should keep an eye on them as well.It won't be long before moves are made to bring them into line.

We used to be under the authoritarain Control of Denktash and his poltical cronies. When we voted them out of power and chose a new leader, we are now 'slaves' to Talat and his poltical allies. Oh come the happy day when we are truley free and ruled over by a benign Tassos Papadopolus and his poltical cronies.

Birkibrisli wrote:
Talat's whole game is motivated by opening the EU door for Turkey,an act initiated and perfected by Turkey,UK and the USA.The referendum was orchestrated to yeild a YES vote in the North and a NO vote in the South.It went perfectly to script.The rest of the script involves dragging the whole conflict out for as long as they can to entrench the partition and to allow the USA to get a real foothold in the North.The sooner we all realise this the better for our pour counrty. :cry:

Yep the whole world decided that they would force a yes no vote in Cyprus. They are determined to keep it divided. The UN, UK, USA and EU all sought to acheive this result. A result that has created a nightmare for the EU.
The reality is that the script was supposed to read a 'yes yes' result to the Annan plan. As far as the Annan plan ended up being to far in favour of the Turkish Cypriot/Turkish side, this is evidence od a lcak of negotation from TP when he had the chance (not wanting a deal that would be voted yes by his people) and evidence of the effectiveness of Greek Cypriot propaganda that stipulated that there was only one side that was 'obstructing' a settlement.

The UN, the UK the EU and even the USA did not want a yes no vote. They wanted a yes yes vote. That they failed is a matter of historical fact. That that failure has created serious problems for them is to me beyond doubt.

It's the same old record Birkibrisli. Cyprus is divided and remains divided not because Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot were and are unable to solve their differences, but because the evil USA and other powers want us divided so they can take ove our country. I just do not buy it I am afraid.

[boomerang]

I have a question for you Erol...If the roles were reversed and the Turkish Cypriot were infact a majority and one day the Annan plan comes around, would you accept it by a yes vote?

[erolz]

boomerang wrote: I have a question for you Erol...If the roles were reversed and the Turkish Cypriot were infact a majority and one day the Annan plan comes around, would you accept it by a yes vote?

What matters to me more than any detail of any plan is whether I think the majority of Cypriots on both side want to and are willing to live togeather in true peace harmony and with mutual respect. If I believed this to be so I would vote for almost any plan. If I do not beleiev it to be so I would vote against almost any plan. For me the 'plan' is practicaly irrelevant vs the 'will'.
I voted no to the Annan plan, not because I thought it favoured the Turkish Cypriot to much, or not enough. I voted no to it because I did not believe that Cypriots were ready yet to live togeather and that it was actualy designed to meet the requirments of 'outside powers' and their timetables (a need that is for an end to the Cyprus problem not a continuation of it) and not Cypriots needs for a lasting settelment.
I hope that answer your question?

[boomerang]

erolz wrote: boomerang wrote: I have a question for you Erol...If the roles were reversed and the Turkish Cypriot were infact a majority and one day the Annan plan comes around, would you accept it by a yes vote?

What matters to me more than any detail of any plan is whether I think the majority of Cypriots on both side want to and are willing to live togeather in true peace harmony and with mutual respect. If I believed this to be so I would vote for almost any plan. If I do not beleiev it to be so I would vote against almost any plan. For me the 'plan' is practicaly irrelevant vs the 'will'.
I voted no to the Annan plan, not because I thought it favoured the Turkish Cypriot to much, or not enough. I voted no to it because I did not believe that Cypriots were ready yet to live togeather and that it was actualy designed to meet the requirments of 'outside powers' and their timetables (a need that is for an end to the Cyprus problem not a continuation of it) and not Cypriots needs for a lasting settelment.
I hope that answer your question?


Not really Erol...

What I was basically asking was if the roles were reversed and this plan was on the table would you find it a fair plan?...

Because you mentioned that the EU, UN, USA and UK wanted a yes-yes vote with the Annan 5 plan.

I understand that there should be a plan that is devised and agreed by both communities, and I agree with you on this one...btw this was your answer...


Keep in mind that to be a will there has to be a fair plan...I think the will is there but we felt short on the plan

[brother]

boomerang wrote: erolz wrote: boomerang wrote: I have a question for you Erol...If the roles were reversed and the Turkish Cypriot were infact a majority and one day the Annan plan comes around, would you accept it by a yes vote?

What matters to me more than any detail of any plan is whether I think the majority of Cypriots on both side want to and are willing to live togeather in true peace harmony and with mutual respect. If I believed this to be so I would vote for almost any plan. If I do not beleiev it to be so I would vote against almost any plan. For me the 'plan' is practicaly irrelevant vs the 'will'.
I voted no to the Annan plan, not because I thought it favoured the Turkish Cypriot to much, or not enough. I voted no to it because I did not believe that Cypriots were ready yet to live togeather and that it was actualy designed to meet the requirments of 'outside powers' and their timetables (a need that is for an end to the Cyprus problem not a continuation of it) and not Cypriots needs for a lasting settelment.
I hope that answer your question?


Not really Erol...

What I was basically asking was if the roles were reversed and this plan was on the table would you find it a fair plan?...

Because you mentioned that the EU, UN, USA and UK wanted a yes-yes vote with the Annan 5 plan.

I understand that there should be a plan that is devised and agreed by both communities, and I agree with you on this one...btw this was your answer...


Keep in mind that to be a will there has to be a fair plan...I think the will is there but we felt short on the plan


Imo the will fell short from Tassos and if he had wanted he could have negotiated a better plan and got a 'yes' vote from the Greek Cypriot, instead he choose to keep it as is, so he could get the 'no' vote and not share power with the Turkish Cypriot.

[erolz]

boomerang wrote:
Keep in mind that to be a will there has to be a fair plan...I think the will is there but we felt short on the plan

Well here we disagree. To me first and before everyhting else there has to be will. Without that the chances of finding a 'fair' plan are remote and even if found the risk of failure of reunifcation are very high. To me will is everything. To me with sufficent will the 60's agreements could have worked and led to a peacful prosperous and happy Cyprus. The Annan plan could have worked, any number of other plans could have worked, with sufficent and genuine will from both sides. Without it I doubt any of these or any other plan, no matter how balanced, how fair, how clearly designed have much prospect of working. I am not saying let's not bother about a plan, or try and make it as fair and balanced as is humanly possible in such a senario (and ANY plan will required scrafice and loss and risk from both communites - let us not ignore this simple fact). I am saying lets' not make out the 'plan' is the be all and end all of the the problem and the answer to solving it. It is not. More that the plan it is our will and attitudes that hold the key to a solution.