www.talkcyprus.org

[sophisticatedbeggar]

From a greek source (hope it ain't no problem that I'm using a greek source here):

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100011_29/10/2005_62404


Rightist Turks defy patriarch

Tolga Bozoglu/EPA
Turkish far-right protesters make the sign of the Gray Wolves (another name for the Nationalist Action Party or MHP) outside the headquarters of Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios in Istanbul’s Fanar district yesterday. Around 200 protesters, who reject the ecumenical nature of the patriarch’s role, called for him to ‘go back to Greece.’

Around 200 far-right Turks staged a protest in front of the headquarters of Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios in Istanbul yesterday, disputing the validity of the Orthodox patriarch’s title and calling for him to move to Greece.

Amid a heavy police presence, protesters chanted slogans such as “back to Greece with the patriarch,” waved the national flag of Turkey and of the extreme-right Nationalist Action Party (MHP), and laid a black wreath at the door of the patriarchate.

“The patriarchate has stopped being just a religious institution and has become a political one,” a senior MHP spokesperson said. “It is trying to establish a religious state like the Vatican, demanding part of the Turkish state’s sovereignty.”

The protest, which ended peacefully, came a week after Vartholomaios told a conference in Istanbul that Turkey was preventing him from using his ecumenical title, which indicates his spiritual leadership of the world’s 250 million or so Orthodox faithful.

[Dhavlos]

first, welcome sofisticatedbeggar,hope u enjoy the forum!

the asking of the MHP to the patriarch to go back 'home' has no value,since he has been there since beforethe turkish state was founded!!!!

[erolz]

Hi SB (if I can reduce your nick to that?)

Welcome to the forum.

It is no problem using any source here. It is always nice to hear a posters views on a source when they post it. Do you think the 'extremists' in Turkey are any greater than anywhere else for example?

[cannedmoose]

Welcome beggar

[sophisticatedbeggar]

No I don't think they're any better... that's why I posted this link...

I don't mean to offend those that don't feel threatened by Vartholomaios and don't want to see our Ecumenical Patriach "swimming" back to Greece... I only want to "upset" those that claim they are not prejudiced but deep down feel that someone my grandfather's age who represents some hundreds of christian orthodoxs in Istanbul and is a religious symbol to us christian orthodoxs worldwide may be a threat to a country of 99,9% muslim population (and moreover a country which aspires to enter the EU)...

PS Thank you for your warm welcome people !

[bg_turk]

sophisticatedbeggar wrote: No I don't think they're any better... that's why I posted this link...

I don't mean to offend those that don't feel threatened by Vartholomaios and don't want to see our Ecumenical Patriach "swimming" back to Greece... I only want to "upset" those that claim they are not prejudiced but deep down feel that someone my grandfather's age who represents some hundreds of christian orthodoxs in Istanbul and is a religious symbol to us christian orthodoxs worldwide may be a threat to a country of 99,9% muslim population (and moreover a country which aspires to enter the EU)...

PS Thank you for your warm welcome people !

hi, welcome to the forum.

I think the attitude that extreme nationalists display against the patriarch is deplorable and unacceptable. Turkey must insure religious freedom to all of its citzens and acknowledge the importance of christian heritage on its territories, as long as this is in no conflict with its territorial integrity.

My cousin that studies in Bursa, Turkey, says they are being taught prayers in class, there is some kind of religion class, which I belive should be unacceptable for a country that claims to be secular.

Another interesting thing about Turkey that I alway notice when I visit is the proliferation of minaretes. People are building so many mosques, minarete are growing everywhere like mushrooms. People have no hospitals, and they are building mosques? In fact I was reading somewhere that the number of muslim clerks is larger than the number who work in the health sector.

I do not know how it is now with AKP in power, but my other cousin in Istanbul was telling me that when religious parties get into power, like the one belonging to Erbakan, things get really crazy. One of the guys in Erbakan's party proposed virginity tests, as part of the overall grade of femals students, can you belive it? Gender equality is absolute non-existent because of religion, not a single female MP. Turkey must change and it must change a lot.

[Xenos 2Fan]

bg_turk wrote: sophisticatedbeggar wrote: No I don't think they're any better... that's why I posted this link...

I don't mean to offend those that don't feel threatened by Vartholomaios and don't want to see our Ecumenical Patriach "swimming" back to Greece... I only want to "upset" those that claim they are not prejudiced but deep down feel that someone my grandfather's age who represents some hundreds of christian orthodoxs in Istanbul and is a religious symbol to us christian orthodoxs worldwide may be a threat to a country of 99,9% muslim population (and moreover a country which aspires to enter the EU)...

PS Thank you for your warm welcome people !

hi, welcome to the forum.

I think the attitude that extreme nationalists display against the patriarch is deplorable and unacceptable. Turkey must insure religious freedom to all of its citzens and acknowledge the importance of christian heritage on its territories, as long as this is in no conflict with its territorial integrity.

My cousin that studies in Bursa, Turkey, says they are being taught prayers in class, there is some kind of religion class, which I belive should be unacceptable for a country that claims to be secular.

Another interesting thing about Turkey that I alway notice when I visit is the proliferation of minaretes. People are building so many mosques, minarete are growing everywhere like mushrooms. People have no hospitals, and they are building mosques? In fact I was reading somewhere that the number of muslim clerks is larger than the number who work in the health sector.

I do not know how it is now with AKP in power, but my other cousin in Istanbul was telling me that when religious parties get into power, like the one belonging to Erbakan, things get really crazy. One of the guys in Erbakan's party proposed virginity tests, as part of the overall grade of femals students, can you belive it? Gender equality is absolute non-existent because of religion, not a single female MP. Turkey must change and it must change a lot.

BG,
Did I read or understand this wrong :?: I am surprised and puzzled you don't know about Tansu Ciller.

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/cillertansu/

I agree with you that Mosques are appearing at an alarming rate and Islam is making a resurgence in Turkey. I adhere to my rahmetli Grandfather's belief that we should build more schools instead of mosques. However, I believe that this is simply a trend imo. You also say that there is zero gender equality which I completely disagree with. I think you're blowing things a bit out of proportion.

I agree with you also when you say when a fundementalist such as Erbakan come to power (no matter for how short :D ) things get kinda freaky in Turkey but in the end the secular side wins out. Fundementalism of any sort causes things and people to regress. Turkey has placed herself in the middle of an identity crisis. She's trying to figure out the middle ground of her Islamic and western position imo. But she will figure it out.

[Xenos 2Fan]

testing... has my font size changed or is it my pc?

[bg_turk]

Tufan,

sorry I forgot about Tansu Ciller, shes been a prime minister of Turkey. In fact I cannot recall Bulgaria having a woman prime minister so by criticism of Turkey may have been a bit unjustified.

But I think we should make a distinction between MP (member of parliament) and PM (prime ministers). In terms of PMs Turkey is alright compared to other countries, but in terms of MPs it is really behind. Women should be more active in turkey's political life as I believe they have a lot to offer in terms of introducing civility to the macho-like ways of the turkish male parliamentarians. These people fight and punch each other in parliament :D .

PS. your font appears bigger on my PC as well

[Xenos 2Fan]

No worries my friend. You are correct I should have made the distinction MPs and PMs as well. My baddy. :D

I agree the macho antics of the MPs in Turkey are insane sometimes. I can not believe that grown men punch each other out.

[turkkan]

THe MHP are not muslim fundamentalist, infact the armed wing of the MHP are at constant war with those who support political Islam.I will not go into the history of those two groups and their conlficts as they are to long, but they have been fighting each other for a very long time, it is ridicoulus to call the MHP 'islamic fundamentalists'. THere are splinter groups from the MHP that are also islamic, but those are small in size compared to the actual MHP.

Quote: I agree with you that Mosques are appearing at an alarming rate and Islam is making a resurgence in Turkey.

Quote: Another interesting thing about Turkey that I alway notice when I visit is the proliferation of minaretes. People are building so many mosques, minarete are growing everywhere like mushrooms. People have no hospitals, and they are building mosques?

The reason for the above is actually quite simple, and not that linked to Erdogan, the reason so many mosques are being built is because a lot of companies that specialize in building mosques have seen this is a big business and now there is a large pool of companies whos only projects consist of building mosques. THey also employ a relativley huge workforce and certain political power due to their size now, which is why they are building mosqus at such a rate, it has more to do with economics than islam. Islam is on the rise however, as it is throughout the middle east, it is becoming more visible in turkeys cities now due to the mass migration of people from rural areas, which dosent necessarily mean a large change in the religous beleifes of the total population but rather it has shifted to an area where it can be seen more.


Quote: One of the guys in Erbakan's party proposed virginity tests, as part of the overall grade of femals students, can you belive it?

That is why Erbakans party is no longer in power, and a lot of other radicals have proposed even worse things, yet you shouldnt make an issue out of them because you know very well there is no chance of such a thing ever happening.

[brother]

Hi sofisticatedbeggar and Turkkan and welcome to the forum :welcome:

[Xenos 2Fan]

Thanks for the clarifications Turkkan and welcome to the forum. 8)

[Birkibrisli]

bg_turk wrote: Tufan,

sorry I forgot about Tansu Ciller, shes been a prime minister of Turkey. In fact I cannot recall Bulgaria having a woman prime minister so by criticism of Turkey may have been a bit unjustified.

But I think we should make a distinction between MP (member of parliament) and PM (prime ministers). In terms of PMs Turkey is alright compared to other countries, but in terms of MPs it is really behind. Women should be more active in turkey's political life as I believe they have a lot to offer in terms of introducing civility to the macho-like ways of the turkish male parliamentarians. These people fight and punch each other in parliament :D .

PS. your font appears bigger on my PC as well

Yes,we did have Tansu Ciller as PM in Turkey,but can anyone tell me what difference it made to Turkish womens lot in life? In my opinion women PMs have to prove themselves in a macho world of male politics,so they pretend to be more macho than men.Remember Margaret Thatcher and the Falklands war?From memory Ciller too had made some amazing threats towards the Kurds and Greek Cypriots in her time as PM,to establish her macho credentials.Can someone tell me what Ciller is remembered for now,apart from being Turkey's only token female PM?

[bg_turk]

corruption scandals. She had built some huge luxurious villas.