www.talkcyprus.org

[Dhavlos]

Ok, this may sound like the most useless thread, but i think that it is very important, at least, for the future.

Most people will not like the idea of'defining' a Turkish Cypriot and a Greek Cypriot, but the reality is, that we are not going to find a solution without some kind of way that differentiates between the two.

WE all assume a Greek Cypriot issomeone who speaks greek, is orthodox christian, and a Turkish Cypriot is someone who speaks turkish and is a muslim.

But, what happens if people mix....say they have a Turkish Cypriot father and a Greek Cypriot mother...what do they become politically(very important when you think about voting rights etc.)...are they Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot?

what if a Greek Cypriot marries a Turkish Cypriot and changes their religion...what are they?
What if a cypriot speaks just greek, but is muslim?

what are they if a Greek Cypriot changes religion, and vis-versa?

There may be a simple answer, but i dont see one

any ideas on how a Greek Cypriot and a Turkish Cypriot would be defined?

[glitterygert]

Why does anyone have to have a label?, we are all just people of the world, to me if some one is born in Britain, whatever colour or religion, they are from Britain, well that's just my thoughts

[Dhavlos]

But surely you have to understand that the whole cypriot solution revolves around the idea of the power relationships between the Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots(as well as property etc...)...it is a sad situation, but it has to be tackled.

Things like who becomes president/vice...how would you be able to define if they are a Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot, if certain quotas are needed etc...

even the annan plan needs this kind of description...who wouldbe ablke tosay if they are Turkish Cypriot or GCfor quotas etc...

[glitterygert]

I'm not really into politics and such, when you say quotas, do you mean for voting purposes, or census information?

[Dhavlos]

voting purposes, and depending on the plan, could mean where you can/cannot live, in the northern or southern states of a federal cyprus

[glitterygert]

But surely that's like saying you can only live in Scotland if you're Scottish. Or am I missing the point, forgive me If I am, As for voting, say in Northumberland an Asian guy was standing for the local council, if I liked and believed in what he stood for, I would vote for him, his colour or faith would be of no concern to me.

[Dhavlos]

but that is the way the british system has developed....in cyprus, many people would vote allong ethnic lines....ie, if they were Greek Cypriot, they would vote for a Greek Cypriot party.

Its too complicated to try to explain it to yu...maybe moose or bro may be better, but basically, the two communities in cyprus are co-founders of the state.

It is kinda like a scot living in scotland thing, but the reason there is such a problem, is that historically, the Turkish Cypriots were not all situated in the north. infact, there were many more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots, so the problem with quotas is very controversial, especially due to the property issue.

The reason it matters, is because there is a very big issue, say for example, as to who would be the president/vice...a Turkish Cypriot or a Greek Cypriot? in the old constituition, a Greek Cypriot was president and a Turkish Cypriot was his vice-pres., now the problem thatarises issayif aGC who was a muslim came up for election...would he be a GCor a Turkish Cypriot? or if a Turkish Cypriot changed religion to marry...what would he be?

Its very complicated...sorry if i dont make sense

[glitterygert]

the last paragraph says it all to me, if I'm getting it right, it's all about religion then.

[Dhavlos]

probably, but i think more people need to say what it is....

you are probably right tho

[glitterygert]

Just had a quick discussion with my 24year old son about this, we have very differing views, but I won't go into that. All he said was, if a dog is born in a stable does it mean it's a horse

[Dhavlos]

maybe if you were to say, a dalmationa and a labrador had a puppy, what would it be considered as? - the ansewr cannot be 'a mix of the two'- if you had to decide

[andytandreou]

If the Anan Plan where to be put into effect I believe that it would be left to the member states to control who registers with them and who doesn't! IT'S CLEARLY NOT ABOUT NATIONALITY or who is a Turkish Cypriot or a Greek Cypriot. It's more to do with the state which you want to register with.

The South (for example) may accept registrations of Turkish Cypriots but if the situation got out of hand then perhaps they could ask for permission from the EU to introduce a temporary quota. The same can be said for Greek Cypriots returning to the North of Cyprus. If there where too many returning at once (and the North was unhappy), they could issue a temporary quota as per European regulations.

In the end we would have had a system of two states where people can move, work and live freely but if the situation got out of hand then one of the two states could fall back on the Anan plan provisions and introduce population quotas.

The reason the Anan plan had to be voted before EU accession was that IF THE PROVISIONS OF THE PLAN WHERE PUT INTO EFFECT (like limiting population movement) then this would be against EU law.

I am beggining to see that the Annan plan was actually a way to trick people into accepting a solution of almost complete unity between Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots. It's seperatist provisions (which we all accept as being a joke) where only there as something to fall back on in case of emergency! Of course the Greek Cypriots took the Anan plan as a solid framework which could not work AND THIS WOULD BE TRUE IF THOSE PROVISIONS WHERE ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED!!!

[cannedmoose]

I think this is almost an impossible question to answer, largely because the terms 'Greek-Cypriot' and 'Turkish Cypriot' are a political construction. Before the advent of 'modern' politics in Cyprus, people regarded themselves as Orthodox Christian Cypriots, or Muslim Cypriots, labels that did not result in religious conflict, but simply led the communities to live enmeshed, yet separate lives. It was only with the identification of Orthodox Cypriots with the Greek state, and subsequently the Muslim Cypriots with the Turkish state that it became a political, and thus a nationalist issue.

In so many ways, looking from outside-in, Cypriots of both communities are similar in their everyday existence. I don't think it's a religious issue, as most Turkish Cypriot muslims are secular and most Greek Cypriots are similarly non-devout (although it would be very easy to assume they are, but this is a misnomer). The only religious element that comes into this is the intertwining of Greek Cypriot identity with that of the Greek Orthodox Church. By professing loyalty to the Church, Greek Cypriots identify themselves as Greek Cypriots, thus giving them a separate identity. In contrast, I don't see that most Turkish Cypriots identify themselves in relation to the mosque or Imam, rather they identify themselves as Turkish, by reference to the Turkish state across the sea.

If you stood 5 Greek Cypriots and 5 Turkish Cypriots against a wall, mixed them up and asked people to identify who was Greek Cypriot and who Turkish Cypriot, I think in many cases, you'd be hard-pressed to identify them.

I also don't think language comes into it. If so, does that mean that the Greek Cypriots who were born and raised in the UK, and are unable to speak Greek, are not Greek Cypriots? The government certainly defines them as so, given the constant need to get a special dispensation to avoid service in the national guard. Does this also mean that I, as someone married to a Greek Cypriot, who speaks a tiny bit of Greek, has been Christened Greek Orthodox and knows how to cook a mean souvla am Greek Cypriot? No, these are artificial terms, invented to express difference. Just as all nations are artificial creations, so are the terms that are associated with them. The sooner we realise that we're all just Cypriots, and should be proud of the differences that this term encompasses, the better.

[glitterygert]

[quote]

[brother]

cannedmoose wrote: I think this is almost an impossible question to answer, largely because the terms 'Greek-Cypriot' and 'Turkish Cypriot' are a political construction. Before the advent of 'modern' politics in Cyprus, people regarded themselves as Orthodox Christian Cypriots, or Muslim Cypriots, labels that did not result in religious conflict, but simply led the communities to live enmeshed, yet separate lives. It was only with the identification of Orthodox Cypriots with the Greek state, and subsequently the Muslim Cypriots with the Turkish state that it became a political, and thus a nationalist issue.

In so many ways, looking from outside-in, Cypriots of both communities are similar in their everyday existence. I don't think it's a religious issue, as most Turkish Cypriot muslims are secular and most Greek Cypriots are similarly non-devout (although it would be very easy to assume they are, but this is a misnomer). The only religious element that comes into this is the intertwining of Greek Cypriot identity with that of the Greek Orthodox Church. By professing loyalty to the Church, Greek Cypriots identify themselves as Greek Cypriots, thus giving them a separate identity. In contrast, I don't see that most Turkish Cypriots identify themselves in relation to the mosque or Imam, rather they identify themselves as Turkish, by reference to the Turkish state across the sea.

If you stood 5 Greek Cypriots and 5 Turkish Cypriots against a wall, mixed them up and asked people to identify who was Greek Cypriot and who Turkish Cypriot, I think in many cases, you'd be hard-pressed to identify them.

I also don't think language comes into it. If so, does that mean that the Greek Cypriots who were born and raised in the UK, and are unable to speak Greek, are not Greek Cypriots? The government certainly defines them as so, given the constant need to get a special dispensation to avoid service in the national guard. Does this also mean that I, as someone married to a Greek Cypriot, who speaks a tiny bit of Greek, has been Christened Greek Orthodox and knows how to cook a mean souvla am Greek Cypriot? No, these are artificial terms, invented to express difference. Just as all nations are artificial creations, so are the terms that are associated with them. The sooner we realise that we're all just Cypriots, and should be proud of the differences that this term encompasses, the better.


Well said and to the point.