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cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I remember Desmond Tutu saying this to the white minority at the time:"Admitting the wrong doings of the past is essential in the reconciliation process.Because IF YOU DONT APOLOGISE,HOW CAN WE FORGIVE YOU?"
How do we go about agitating for such a Commission or whatever?
Any ideas,especially from people who live in Cyprus? |
The South African T&RC was in my mind when I was writing this. The difference in my opinion is that in South Africa, the wrong was definitely against one community, I'd be hard-pushed to say how the black population committed crimes against the whites during the apartheid period. In Cyprus, it's more complicated and requires mutual apologies.
While it's a good idea in theory, there is absolutely no hope whatsoever of such a Commission being formed anytime soon. It would certainly be blocked at the political level and would thus have no power to call witnesses such as TPap (one of the leader lights of EOKA) and Rauf Denktas (whose role in TMT is well known). Sadly, this is one that can only happen after a solution, so long as the politicians don't write an amnesty clause into the agreement. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
I agree with you totally,Moose.
Some people might remember that in some other threads (and possibly in other forums as well) I have been suggesting the idea of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for Cyprus. |
And I too have long been a fan of and arguer for the necessity of having a truth and reconilliation process in Cyprus.
I have also pointed out in the past that there is a reason it is called truth and reconcilliation, with truth comming before recocilliation. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
To me saying that Greek Cypriot killed Turkish Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot killed Greek Cypriot because 'others' made us do it is distorting the past, denying the past, excusing the past, dimishing the past. It has some element of truth but to present it as the THE truth is no way forward.
That is all I am trying to say here in essence. |
Erol, I will comment on this paragraph for now, although I feel that my original question was not adequately answered and maybe you should look at it again as it was more accurately addressed to Moose's posting.
On the above paragraph, what is missing is the fact that those killings did occur in the past but not simply because Cypriots are of a murderous nature as such, or simply because they were chauvinist haters of each other on the basis of their "ethnic" origin. They occurred mainly because each side perceived the other side as an (the) obstacle in the road towards achieving their self-righteous communal "self-determination" ambitions (Enosis and /or Taksim,) and not the enemy as such and for the sake of it. Those "self-determination" romantic ambitions, as it was proved in the process, were mutually exclusive to each other, thus one community perceived the other as the illogical and unfair side and consequently an obstacle that had to be put aside from their way.
However, at least as far as the Greek Cypriot side is concerned, (and here I want to hope, although not sure yet, the Turkish Cypriot side too,) it doesn’t maintain such romantic ambitions that might be regarded by the Turkish Cypriot community as a reason to become an obstacle to them, any more. The idea of Union with Greece, which was an anathema for the Turkish Cypriots, is not on the agenda of the Greek Cypriots any more and for many years now, and I do not see any possibility it will ever become an issue again, especially after the EU membership. The only “romantic” agenda that seems to continue to remain alive is that of partition, at least among a good proportion of the Turkish Cypriots. Am I right? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| -mikkie2- wrote: |
| And I think you like to take take events in isolation and project your views based on that. The trouble with the Cyprus problem is that you cannot take things in isolation and make judgements. One has to see the bigger picture. The British may not have directly killed Cypriots but they put Cypriots in eachothers line of fire. The fact that the British exclusively filled the police force with Turkish Cypriots and made them the front line against the independence movement is proof of that. The classic divide and rule policy which the British used throught their empire. |
Talking about British divide and rule and the use of Turkish Cypriot to fight EOKA without talking about why Turkish Cypriot where such obvious 'allies' of the British and not the Greek Cypriot, is not taking events in isolation? Why was it that the Turkish Cypriot community were on the side of the colonisers and not on the side of their fellow Cypriots? How much more can you isolate an event than to talk about British divide and rule in CVyprus without mentioning that the Greek Cypriot were persuing not a bicommunal independance in Cyprus but the colonisation of Cyprus Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot both by greece?
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
And of course there is the syphonig off of the wealth of Cyprus by the Ottomans and subsequently by the British which stopped Cypriots from bettering themselves. By all accounts, after independece and despite the problems, Cyprus actually flourished economically with the rapid development of places such as Varosha and the rapid expansion of Nicosia. You cannot realise how much Cypriost were held back in the colonial era. And that is how the frustrations have built up and that is how views and aims become polarised. |
It was because the British hampered the economic development of both communites equaly, that the two communites 'polarised' and Greek Cypriot sough a purely Greek Cypriot objective and Turkish Cypriot a purely Turkish Cypriot one?
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
You may have a vision of Cyprus Erol where we all live together, but it seems to me your vision is more like living side by side than together. |
First living side by side in peace and harmony would be an advance on anything we have managed to achieve so far and the best (and quite probably only) way to move from side by side to togeather, given the past. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
| However, at least as far as the Greek Cypriot side is concerned, (and here I want to hope, although not sure yet, the Turkish Cypriot side too,) it doesn’t maintain such romantic ambitions that might be regarded by the Turkish Cypriot community as a reason to become an obstacle to them, any more. The idea of Union with Greece, which was an anathema for the Turkish Cypriots, is not on the agenda of the Greek Cypriots any more and for many years now, and I do not see any possibility it will ever become an issue again, especially after the EU membership. The only “romantic” agenda that seems to continue to remain alive is that of partition, at least among a good proportion of the Turkish Cypriots. Am I right? |
Is the Greek Cypriot ambition of a Greek Cypriot state, run effectively by Greek Cypriot alone, dead and totaly replaced in the Republic of Cyprus with a desire to create a Cypriot state where is does not matter if you are Turkish Cypriot or Greek Cypriot?
Let me be clearer here. A Greek Cypriot persuit of Enosis in the future may well be dead - I agree and accept that. What is a very real possibility in the future is that at some stage the desires of the Greek Cypriot community in Cyprus may be at odds with those of the Turkish Cypriot community. Has the Greek Cypriot community abandoned the 'romantic' idea that whenever this occurs they should have and will always have the RIGHT to impose their communites will on the Turkish Cypriot community? |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| However, at least as far as the Greek Cypriot side is concerned, (and here I want to hope, although not sure yet, the Turkish Cypriot side too,) it doesn’t maintain such romantic ambitions that might be regarded by the Turkish Cypriot community as a reason to become an obstacle to them, any more. The idea of Union with Greece, which was an anathema for the Turkish Cypriots, is not on the agenda of the Greek Cypriots any more and for many years now, and I do not see any possibility it will ever become an issue again, especially after the EU membership. The only “romantic” agenda that seems to continue to remain alive is that of partition, at least among a good proportion of the Turkish Cypriots. Am I right? |
Is the Greek Cypriot ambition of a Greek Cypriot state, run effectively by Greek Cypriot alone, dead and totaly replaced in the Republic of Cyprus with a desire to create a Cypriot state where is does not matter if you are Turkish Cypriot or Greek Cypriot? |
I am sorry but I fail to follow the logic of your above "twisting" on the overall discussion. Aren't we talking about re-uniting the country as one, in which it will not essentially matter whether you are a Greek speaking or a Turkish speaking Cypriot? Is this what the Greek Cypriot side is hoping and working for, namely for only Greek Cypriots to be running the country and without any Turkish Cypriot involvement and role? |
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erolz
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Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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I am not sure if you saw the 'extended' version of the post above or not?
To reiterate.
Is your idea of a untied Cyprus one where if at any time in the future Greek Cypriot desires become opposed to Turkish Cypriot desires, that the Greek Cypriot community should have the right and ability to force thier communites desires on the Turkish Cypriot community without any let or hinderance?
If that is your idea of a untied Cyprus then as far as I am concerned it is a vision that has shown it has learnt nothing from the mistakes of the past. It is simply the same failed vision of a 'united' Cyprus that failed before as far as I am concerned. Rather than showing that Greek Cypriot had abandoned the 'logic' that said they had every right to persue ENOSIS and impose it on Turkish Cypriot community, it shows that they maintain this logic. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
Let me be clearer here. A Greek Cypriot persuit of Enosis in the future may well be dead - I agree and accept that. What is a very real possibility in the future is that at some stage the desires of the Greek Cypriot community in Cyprus may be at odds with those of the Turkish Cypriot community. Has the Greek Cypriot community abandoned the 'romantic' idea that whenever this occurs they should have and will always have the RIGHT to impose their communites will on the Turkish Cypriot community? |
Such as what? What would possibly such a cause be, that will unite the vast majority of the Greek speaking Cypriots in favor of it and which will unite the vast majority of the Turkish speaking Cypriots against it, due to its -from a moral perspective, one-sided and prejudiced nature?
I would like to see a realist example. |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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Erol, your logic is so twisted and warped it sometimes beggars belief. You seem to make the assumption that what will be created is one Greek Cypriot political party that will represent exclusively the Greek Cypriot's at the expense of the Turkish Cypriot's and thus the Greek Cypriot party will ALWAYS be in power and consequently dominate the Turkish Cypriot's and pass laws which will go against the will of the Turkish Cypriot's.
This is what you are essentailly talking about in a unified Cyprus and I am telling you right now that it cannot happen.
In any case, we decide on a federal solution so that the Turkish Cypriot's can have political power in a geographic area and that is still not enough for the Turkish Cypriot's and Turkey.
It is this attitude that will actually lead to partition, not the Greek Cypriot's which all they want is a reasonable solution which is labelled as maximalist by the experts in maximalist demands! |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Kifeas wrote: |
Such as what? What would possibly such a cause be, that will unite the vast majority of the Greek speaking Cypriots in favor of it and which will unite the vast majority of the Turkish speaking Cypriots against it, due to its -from a moral perspective, one-sided and prejudiced nature?
I would like to see a realist example. |
Just use your imagination Kifeas.
There are any number of issues that could become split based on Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot lines in a unitary Cypriot state. From the building of a new monument to EOKA heros, to countless issue of international agreements and associations with foreign powers.
You claim that Greek Cypriot have 'abandoned' their devisive desires because they have abandoned ENOSIS. I say if Greek Cypriot believe that in a untied Cyprus they should have a right to impose their communites will on the Turkish Cypriot community simply because they are the larger of the two communites that share Cyprus, then this idea that Greek Cypriot have abandoned their devisive ideas is simply not the case.
So which is it Kifeas? Do you believe that if the Greek Cypriot community wants one thing in a untied Cyprus, regardless of what that thing is, and the Turkish Cypriot community wants another that the Greek Cypriot community should always get it's desires and the Turkish Cypriot never theirs? Or do you accept that when the two communites desires in a shared Cyprus differ there should be no automatic awarding of the Greek Cypriot desires at the expense of the Turkish Cypriot ones. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
Such as what? What would possibly such a cause be, that will unite the vast majority of the Greek speaking Cypriots in favor of it and which will unite the vast majority of the Turkish speaking Cypriots against it, due to its -from a moral perspective, one-sided and prejudiced nature?
I would like to see a realist example. |
Just use your imagination Kifeas.
There are any number of issues that could become split based on Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot lines in a unitary Cypriot state. From the building of a new monument to EOKA heros, to countless issue of international agreements and associations with foreign powers.
You claim that Greek Cypriot have 'abandoned' their devisive desires because they have abandoned ENOSIS. I say if Greek Cypriot believe that in a untied Cyprus they should have a right to impose their communites will on the Turkish Cypriot community simply because they are the larger of the two communites that share Cyprus, then this idea that Greek Cypriot have abandoned their devisive ideas is simply not the case.
So which is it Kifeas? Do you believe that if the Greek Cypriot community wants one thing in a untied Cyprus, regardless of what that thing is, and the Turkish Cypriot community wants another that the Greek Cypriot community should always get it's desires and the Turkish Cypriot never theirs? Or do you accept that when the two communites desires in a shared Cyprus differ there should be no automatic awarding of the Greek Cypriot desires at the expense of the Turkish Cypriot ones. |
I claim that we should completely abandon such notions like Greek Cypriot community and Turkish Cypriot community and instead we all regard our selves as Cypriots and only Cypriots, in a country in which both Turkish and Greek will be regarded as official languages and all (any) religions are free to be practiced by those who wish to practice them.
Do you have a problem with such an idea? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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First things first.
You claimed that the Greek Cypriot community had (clearly) given up it's historical divisive desires (ENOSIS) but that the Turkish Cypriot community had not clearly given up it's devisie desires (TAKSIM).
The point I am trying to make here is that the Greek Cypriots could well have given up ENOSIS - which I agree to all intense and purposes they have, and yet still maintain the same mindset with regards to a unified Cypriot state that led them to belive they had a right to impose ENOSIS on the Turkish Cypriot community against the Turkish Cypriot communites will in the 60's. Just because ENOSIS is no longer a Greek Cypriot desire it does not imo show that there is nothing to worry about with regard to Greek Cypriot desires for a untied Cyprus.
| Kifeas wrote: |
I claim that we should completely abandon such notions like Greek Cypriot community and Turkish Cypriot community and instead we all regard our selves as Cypriots and only Cypriots, in a country in which both Turkish and Greek will be regarded as official languages and all (any) religions are free to be practiced by those who wish to practice them.
Do you have a problem with such an idea? |
I have no problem with this as an idea. I have a problem with the way you seem to think we reach this goal. It seems to me that you want me to believe that simply because you claim we should abandon the notion of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot entirely, this is what would actualy happen in a untary Cypriot state. That I should have no concerns or fears that it might not actualy happen. That what may possibly happen is that Cypriots continue to think in terms of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot in some or many issues and that the larger Greek Cypriot community may seek to impose it will as a community on the Turkish Cypriot community. This is where my problems lie. |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| erolz wrote: |
First things first.
You claimed that the Greek Cypriot community had (clearly) given up it's historical divisive desires (ENOSIS) but that the Turkish Cypriot community had not clearly given up it's devisie desires (TAKSIM). |
Yes I did claim so, isn’t it the case? I know you agreed that this is the case regarding the Greek Cypriots. You did not say though whether you agree that this is also the case regarding the Turkish Cypriots, namely that they had not clearly given up their divisive desires
| erolz wrote: |
| The point I am trying to make here is that the Greek Cypriots could well have given up ENOSIS - which I agree to all intense and purposes they have, and yet still maintain the same mindset with regards to a unified Cypriot state that led them to belive they had a right to impose ENOSIS on the Turkish Cypriot community against the Turkish Cypriot communites will in the 60's. |
What is this mindset which according to you the Greek Cypriots continue to maintain, and which made them believe that they had the right to impose Enosis? Can you describe it?
| erolz wrote: |
| Just because ENOSIS is no longer a Greek Cypriot desire it does not imo show that there is nothing to worry about with regard to Greek Cypriot desires for a untied Cyprus. |
What do you worry about then? Why you do not become more specific instead of talking rhetorically and hpothtically?
| erolz wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
I claim that we should completely abandon such notions like Greek Cypriot community and Turkish Cypriot community and instead we all regard our selves as Cypriots and only Cypriots, in a country in which both Turkish and Greek will be regarded as official languages and all (any) religions are free to be practiced by those who wish to practice them.
Do you have a problem with such an idea? |
I have no problem with this as an idea. |
Good! At least we agreed on something!
| erolz wrote: |
| I have a problem with the way you seem to think we reach this goal. It seems to me that you want me to believe that simply because you claim we should abandon the notion of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot entirely, this is what would actualy happen in a untary Cypriot state. |
First of all I did not say that I want to make you believe anything! Why do you try to impose on me what you think I want to make you believe, when I said nothing in that respect? Why you do not just ask me, instead of trying to impose on me what and how I want it?
Nevertheless, since you also said that you have no problem with such an idea, do you also believe that we should introduce it, and if yes, how to you suggest we go about it?
| erolz wrote: |
| That I should have no concerns or fears that it might not actualy happen. That what may possibly happen is that Cypriots continue to think in terms of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot in some or many issues and that the larger Greek Cypriot community may seek to impose it will as a community on the Turkish Cypriot community. This is where my problems lie. |
Aren’t we talking about completely departing from this community splitting idea? Why do you keep bringing the concept of larger vs. small community, since the idea is for them to cease from constituting entities, as such. We will only be referring to Greek speaking and Turkish speaking Cypriots, and in the future to bi-lingual or even multi-lingual Cypriots. When I say to depart from this community splitting concept, I mean it in an institutionalised way? The constitution will have to make no distinction between communities, both languages will be official, complete disassociation of religion from political and governmental affairs (it is not allowed by the EU anyway,) and no formation of political parties along and on the basis of “ethnicity” (it is not allowed by the EU as well.) All political parties should be open to all Cypriots and should be based on socio-ideological platforms and not on “ethnic” platforms. All these will be guaranteed in the constitution.
All schools, either being Greek language based or Turkish language based or English language based, will also be required to teach for a certain number of hours, lessons of all the other official languages as well.
In the parliament and the ministry cabinet, both languages will be permitted and there will be simultaneous translation in both official languages. The press will be free. Those who wish to have a Greek language newspaper will be free to do so, those who wish to publish a Turkish language newspaper the same, etc, etc.
If a non-political, non governmental association wishes to conduct a commemorating ceremony of the life and death of let’s say Kemal Atatürk, or to commemorate the “peace operation” of 1974, let them do it. As long as it will not be turned out into a chauvinist delirium –something which will not be allowed by the constitution and the laws, anyway, I personally will have no problem. Will you?
What is it that your fear under this concept? |
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Viewpoint
Warnings : 2
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 971
Location: Lefkosa/Nicosia
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All your arguments are based on trust that the larger population being the Greek Cypriots will do the right thing and not discriminate, and will not vote for purely Greek Cypriot political parties etc...This TRUST does not exists haven't you realized this, your trying to get from level zero to level 10 in one fell swoop, it just wont work and is doomed to failure. How do you propose to avoid exposing Turkish Cypriots to the mercy and goodwill of Greek Cypriots taking into account our history?
Would you take that risk if you were a Turkish Cypriots???????? |
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MicAtCyp
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 313
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Birkibrisli was right. We were never allowed to become Cypriots. Neither during the Ottoman rule nor during the British Rule. People under subordination run to earn the sympathy of their masters by competing each other. It's merely impossible to form a common identity under these conditions.
I disagree with Erol that the cause of division was Enosis as such. Enosis or no Enosis, even if Greece would not exist, the Turkish Cypriots did not want the British to go, because they were afraid of exactly what Birkibrisli said: The majority rule.
From the few posts of Birkibrisli that I read, I would tell him "aferin sana yurttasim" for this simple reason: Because he has a vision that we all should become Cypriots and defend and support each other. We all know what is right and what is wrong for each other, and I beleive we must all put ourselves in the shoes of the other community, and then work out a solution and a new start for our country. |
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