 |
| Author |
Message |
-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
|
|
Erol,
If all else fails fall back on the misfortune of your aunt to justify everything. Sorry if this sounds harsh but that is what you are doing. Once emotions kick in, all reason goes out of the window.
I have to say that I have great respect for Birkibrisli because he experienced the events of 63-64 and despite what his family went through he still has a vision of one Cyprus where we all live together. My family was also directly affected in 74 and I saw its effects first hand. I do not want to see thiese things happen again.
I think irrespective of whether Birkibrisli is a Turkish Cypriot or a Greek Cypriot or a martian, you would place him in the Greek Cypriot pigeonhole, simply because he goes against the grain of the general Turkish Cypriot point of view. |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
Erol,
If all else fails fall back on the misfortune of your aunt to justify everything. Sorry if this sounds harsh but that is what you are doing. Once emotions kick in, all reason goes out of the window. |
You do me great disservice. When what fails? What do you think I am am trying to justify? My response whilst undoubtedly connection to the emotion of frustration and anger was none the less based in logic and not emotion.
I will explain exactly why I refered to what happned to my aunt and it has nothing to do failing (whatever that is supposed to mean?) or justifying anything.
I referd to my aunt to make it totaly clear that it was Cypriots who murderd her husband. Not the British. Not Cypriots at the orders of the British. Not Casino or brothel or real estate agents. Not on the orders of casino owners or brothel owners or real estate agents. Her husband was murdered by Cypriots in the persuit of ideals that had nothing to do with building a cypriot nation we could all live togeather in, In the persuit of ideals that were not created by the British but chosen by Cypriots. Just as Cypriots in both communites suffered in this way. That is why I refferd to my Aunt, to make this reality and truth as clear and direct as I possibly can.
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
I have to say that I have great respect for Birkibrisli |
And do you have a similar respect for people like Bananiot as well?
| -mikkie2- wrote: |
because he experienced the events of 63-64 and despite what his family went through he still has a vision of one Cyprus where we all live together. My family was also directly affected in 74 and I saw its effects first hand. I do not want to see thiese things happen again. |
I have a vision of a Cyprus where we all live togeather. I do not want to see the history of Cyprus repeated. I believe, passionately emotionaly and logicaly, that these things can not be achieved by denying the past. By ignoring the past. By distorting the past. By blaming others for the past. By prentending that Cypiots did not chose to kill Cypriots in the persuit of anything other than a untied Cyprus where we all can live togeather. Or that when they did it was not their fault but done because someone else made them do it. Or prending that this was 'all in the past' and should be dead and burried. Or that the people that comitted these dispicable acts, that supported and promoted these devisive aims, are today all long dead and burried. That to me is no way to build a better and different future for Cyprus and Cypriots. To me the motivation for this denial, this distortion this abdication of OUR responsibility and OUR failings is not one of wanting to build a better Cyprus today that avoids the mistakes WE made in the past at all. It is the simple denial of a man who has been the main agent in the destruction of his own life wishing to blame anyone and anything for the state he finds himself in but himself.
So tell me Mikkie2, in the spirit of building a Cyprus we can all live togeather in, that ENOSIS and or TAKSIM were not devisive ideas that we ourselves chose as Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot above the idea of a untied Cypriot state of Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot. Tell me that EOKA struggled for an indpendent Cypriot nation that Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot could live in togeather. Tell me that it was casino owners, brothel owners, real estate agents that forced us to divide and are the thing that stops us from reuniting now agaist our ture desires, whilst ignoring the history of Cypriot killing Cypriot and one community seeking only its own desires at the expense of the other above and beyond and instead of any concept of a untied Cyprus where we could all live togeather. Tell me these things in all honesty and in the spirit of trying to today build a Cyprus where we can all live togeather. |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| My mother's uncle was also killed in 1964,on his sick bed.But the people who killed them were not Cypriots.They were Greek Cypriots blinded by ethnic hatered for reasons we do not agree on.I know of other cases where Greek Cypriots were killed by Turkish Cypriots for the same reasons. |
And you think these Greek Cypriot (not Cypriots) have now disapeared from Cyprus (or the Turkish Cypriot equivalents)? That they no longer exists so we should no longer worry about them? And likewise that the resons why they ended up blinded by ehtnic hatred, whatever those reasons were, also no longer exits and can not exist again such that we should just foget them and worry about them any more?
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
But I repeat my point: if and when I return to Cyprus permanently,all things being the same,I would rather live in the Republic of Cyprus. If you see me settled in the North,you have my permission to spit in my face. |
I sincerely hope you do chose to decide to return to Cyprus, where ever you decide to live. The choice is entirely yours. To return to the South or to the North.
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Lets shake hands till next time,gardashim.As the Turkish saying goes "as long as I am a traveller and you are an inkeeper,we are bound to meet again"(Sen hanci ben yolcu iken...) |
Sure let's shake hands. I have no animosity towards you as a person. I disagree with your view that Cypriots are not to blame for the mess that is Cyprus today. That simply forgetting or excusing the fact that we killed each other in the past and chose to do so in the persuit of purely Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot desires , is the way to today build a cyprus where we can all live togeather. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
Erol, let’s for the sake of furthering the discussion, hypothetically agree with your understanding of the past. Let’s assume that you are right in your analysis that most (if not all) of the blame falls on Cypriot’s shoulders, or even if you prefer it let’s accept that more blame falls on Greek Cypriot shoulders. Let’s also agree that the past and all our mistakes should not be distorted or forgotten.
What use, in your opinion, should we be making of our past history and its (our) mistakes, today -bearing in mind the current situation and the need to find a solution of our present problem? |
|
| Back to top |
|
cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
| What use, in your opinion, should we be making of our past history and its (our) mistakes, today -bearing in mind the current situation and the need to find a solution of our present problem? |
Permit me to jump in on this one... What Cyprus is crying out for is an independent, bicommunal convention on past crimes against humanity. This could involve legal experts, academics, historians, individual witnesses etc. in an open discussion of what transpired between the two communities (and others) in Cyprus during the period from, let's say 1955 onwards. This convention could be charged with investigating the British policies which some claim resulted in 'divide and rule', crimes by Greek Cypriot militia against Turkish Cypriot, Greek Cypriot and international civilians and crimes by Turkish Cypriot militia against Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot civilians. In other words, it should have no limits, should not be subject to political control, should be independently funded - ideally by either the Council of Europe or UN - and given the powers to call any witnesses it sees fit.
What would this achieve? It might be the first step towards a middle-line account of what really caused the disintegration of bicommunal relations. Would make people appreciate that both sides (as well as others) were to blame, and expose the myths that the fighters on both sides were heroic figures. From this could also come agreed historical accounts which could be used on both sides to educate the younger generations in a non-sectarian way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| erolz wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| My mother's uncle was also killed in 1964,on his sick bed.But the people who killed them were not Cypriots.They were Greek Cypriots blinded by ethnic hatered for reasons we do not agree on.I know of other cases where Greek Cypriots were killed by Turkish Cypriots for the same reasons. |
And you think these Greek Cypriot (not Cypriots) have now disapeared from Cyprus (or the Turkish Cypriot equivalents)? That they no longer exists so we should no longer worry about them? And likewise that the resons why they ended up blinded by ehtnic hatred, whatever those reasons were, also no longer exits and can not exist again such that we should just foget them and worry about them any more?
|
Sorry Erol, I didn't see your last posting before I posted mine. This is a very interesting comment that you made as I feel it somehow gives an answer to the rhetorical question of my previous posting.
However, I will not comment further and I will wait for your reply to my previous (above) question first and then come back to it in correlation with your reply. |
|
| Back to top |
|
boulio
Warnings : 1
Senior Villager
Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Posts: 294
|
|
| what about turkey moose or are the saints and for that matter Greece as well? |
|
| Back to top |
|
erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
Erol, let’s for the sake of furthering the discussion, hypothetically agree with your understanding of the past. Let’s assume that you are right in your analysis that most (if not all) of the blame falls on Cypriot’s shoulders, or even if you prefer it let’s accept that more blame falls on Greek Cypriot shoulders. Let’s also agree that the past and all our mistakes should not be distorted or forgotten.
What use, in your opinion, should we be making of our past history and its (our) mistakes, today -bearing in mind the current situation and the need to find a solution of our present problem? |
imho.
In simple terms if we are not honest with ourselves about how and why we failed to find a harmonious and peacful Cyprus that both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot could live in in the past, then we have little chance to no chance of doing this in the future. To talk of creating such whilst denying and excusing the past is to me a fruitless exercise doomed to failure.
I have no 'magic answers'. I just know in both my heart and my head that denial , dimishing, ingoring , distorting or excusing the actions of Greek Cypriot AND Turkish Cypriot in the past is no way to build a better future.
To me saying that Greek Cypriot killed Turkish Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot killed Greek Cypriot because 'others' made us do it is distorting the past, denying the past, excusing the past, dimishing the past. It has some element of truth but to present it as the THE truth is no way forward.
That is all I am trying to say here in essence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
|
|
| boulio wrote: |
| what about turkey moose or are the saints and for that matter Greece as well? |
I included them in my previous post through this line...
| Quote: |
| an open discussion of what transpired between the two communities (and others) in Cyprus |
By others meaning the UK, Greece, Turkey and later the US. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
|
|
| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| What use, in your opinion, should we be making of our past history and its (our) mistakes, today -bearing in mind the current situation and the need to find a solution of our present problem? |
Permit me to jump in on this one... What Cyprus is crying out for is an independent, bicommunal convention on past crimes against humanity. This could involve legal experts, academics, historians, individual witnesses etc. in an open discussion of what transpired between the two communities (and others) in Cyprus during the period from, let's say 1955 onwards. This convention could be charged with investigating the British policies which some claim resulted in 'divide and rule', crimes by Greek Cypriot militia against Turkish Cypriot, Greek Cypriot and international civilians and crimes by Turkish Cypriot militia against Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot civilians. In other words, it should have no limits, should not be subject to political control, should be independently funded - ideally by either the Council of Europe or UN - and given the powers to call any witnesses it sees fit.
What would this achieve? It might be the first step towards a middle-line account of what really caused the disintegration of bicommunal relations. Would make people appreciate that both sides (as well as others) were to blame, and expose the myths that the fighters on both sides were heroic figures. From this could also come agreed historical accounts which could be used on both sides to educate the younger generations in a non-sectarian way. |
Permit me to say that the history of a place and its people is a continuing process and doesn't begin all of suddenly, at some point of time (say 1955,) and continues from then on. To understand the events of 1955 and put them in their right perspective and context, one needs to know, examine, and analyse events before them and so on and so forth. To start from 1955 only, when the Eoka struggle for liberation and union begun, without knowing why this struggle occurred and why its goals were those which had been, someone might be let to the fallacy that this struggle was a mere terrorist campaign, like some people already do. To do so without looking back, one might miss the fact that the Greek Cypriots were somehow mis-encouraged and /or misguided and /or mis- promisted by the British towards such ambitions. As just one example, I will mention the promises that the British were making to the Greek Cypriots to join them at the beginning of the WWII, in order to fight the axis, so that their turn will come afterwards for their own freedom and Union with Greece, resulting to some 30,000 of them joining the British army. This was not the only time that the British made such types of promises in the past, resulting in the Greek Cypriot's maintenance of illusionary hopes, etc. This was just one example why we cannot cut history so easily and examine it only from one point and onwards.
Nevertheless! Lets say that what Moose says above is done in exactly this was and we reach a verdict (a conclusion.) What is the practical usefulness of the whatever outcome, today, under the present circumstances and in view of our need and desire to solve our present problem? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
|
|
| Basically, imo, the use of such a 'verdict' would mean that we wouldnt be sitting here for hours on end, discussing issues over and over, as to who did what, when, why....is would be easier...there wouldbe as such 'a universal truth' over what happened. I know many people will not agree to it, but it is needed so it can be some kind of a solid block to build a future, not what we have now, which is half-truths and rumour, that cover the reality of what happened. |
|
| Back to top |
|
cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
|
|
| Kifeas wrote: |
| Permit me to say that the history of a place and its people is a continuing process and doesn't begin all of suddenly, at some point of time (say 1955,) and continues from then on. To understand the events of 1955 and put them in their right perspective and context, one needs to know, examine, and analyse events before them and so on and so forth. To start from 1955 only, when the Eoka struggle for liberation and union begun, without knowing why this struggle occurred and why its goals were those which had been, someone might be let to the fallacy that this struggle was a mere terrorist campaign, like some people already do. To do so without looking back, one might miss the fact that the Greek Cypriots were somehow mis-encouraged and /or misguided and /or mis- promisted by the British towards such ambitions. As just one example, I will mention the promises that the British were making to the Greek Cypriots to join them at the beginning of the WWII, in order to fight the axis, so that their turn will come afterwards for their own freedom and Union with Greece, resulting to some 30,000 of them joining the British army. This was not the only time that the British made such types of promises in the past, resulting in the Greek Cypriot's maintenance of illusionary hopes, etc. This was just one example why we cannot cut history so easily and examine it only from one point and onwards. |
I agree with virtually everything you just said. The British government did mislead the Greek Cypriot people into joining the fight against the axis. However, would you rather that Greek Cypriots hadn't joined the fight against Germany and instead had agitated against the war? Also remember that many thousands of Turkish Cypriots also joined the fight against the Axis, despite not being promised union with Turkey...
The question is where you draw the line on historical enquiry. I agree that drawing an artificial boundary in time is difficult and could skew the dialogue. So, if not 1955, how about 1931 or 1878, 1571, or 10,000 BC? How far back in your opinion do we need to/can we go? |
|
| Back to top |
|
cannedmoose
Warnings : 4
Moderator
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 5358
Location: National Forest, England
|
|
| Dhavlos wrote: |
| Basically, imo, the use of such a 'verdict' would mean that we wouldnt be sitting here for hours on end, discussing issues over and over, as to who did what, when, why....is would be easier...there wouldbe as such 'a universal truth' over what happened. I know many people will not agree to it, but it is needed so it can be some kind of a solid block to build a future, not what we have now, which is half-truths and rumour, that cover the reality of what happened. |
Thanks Dhavlos, saved me typing it...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1466
Location: Australia
|
|
| cannedmoose wrote: |
| Kifeas wrote: |
| What use, in your opinion, should we be making of our past history and its (our) mistakes, today -bearing in mind the current situation and the need to find a solution of our present problem? |
Permit me to jump in on this one... What Cyprus is crying out for is an independent, bicommunal convention on past crimes against humanity. This could involve legal experts, academics, historians, individual witnesses etc. in an open discussion of what transpired between the two communities (and others) in Cyprus during the period from, let's say 1955 onwards. This convention could be charged with investigating the British policies which some claim resulted in 'divide and rule', crimes by Greek Cypriot militia against Turkish Cypriot, Greek Cypriot and international civilians and crimes by Turkish Cypriot militia against Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot civilians. In other words, it should have no limits, should not be subject to political control, should be independently funded - ideally by either the Council of Europe or UN - and given the powers to call any witnesses it sees fit.
What would this achieve? It might be the first step towards a middle-line account of what really caused the disintegration of bicommunal relations. Would make people appreciate that both sides (as well as others) were to blame, and expose the myths that the fighters on both sides were heroic figures. From this could also come agreed historical accounts which could be used on both sides to educate the younger generations in a non-sectarian way. |
I agree with you totally,Moose.
Some people might remember that in some other threads (and possibly in other forums as well) I have been suggesting the idea of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for Cyprus.Not only to get to the bottom of how we ended up here,but also to give both communities the opportunity to get their pain and bitterness off their chests,apologise for past wrongs,in order to forgive (if not forget) and go forward.I can think of two examples of such commissions,one was the South African one,and more recently one in East Timor (google it).The South African example is remarkable,IMO.After all the oppression and pain inflicted on the blacks,they managed to avoid widespread bloodshed and formed a republic based on majority rule.I remember Desmond Tutu saying this to the white minority at the time:"Admitting the wrong doings of the past is essential in the reconciliation process.Because IF YOU DONT APOLOGISE,HOW CAN WE FORGIVE YOU?"
How do we go about agitating for such a Commission or whatever?
Any ideas,especially from people who live in Cyprus? |
|
| Back to top |
|
-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
|
|
| Quote: |
| And do you have a similar respect for people like Bananiot as well? |
I respect his opinions. Doesn't mean I agree with them though. In any case what are you trying to get at here?
| Quote: |
| I have a vision of a Cyprus where we all live togeather. I do not want to see the history of Cyprus repeated. I believe, passionately emotionaly and logicaly, that these things can not be achieved by denying the past. By ignoring the past. By distorting the past. By blaming others for the past. By prentending that Cypiots did not chose to kill Cypriots in the persuit of anything other than a untied Cyprus where we all can live togeather. |
And I think you like to take take events in isolation and project your views based on that. The trouble with the Cyprus problem is that you cannot take things in isolation and make judgements. One has to see the bigger picture. The British may not have directly killed Cypriots but they put Cypriots in eachothers line of fire. The fact that the British exclusively filled the police force with Turkish Cypriots and made them the front line against the independence movement is proof of that. The classic divide and rule policy which the British used throught their empire. And of course there is the syphonig off of the wealth of Cyprus by the Ottomans and subsequently by the British which stopped Cypriots from bettering themselves. By all accounts, after independece and despite the problems, Cyprus actually flourished economically with the rapid development of places such as Varosha and the rapid expansion of Nicosia. You cannot realise how much Cypriost were held back in the colonial era. And that is how the frustrations have built up and that is how views and aims become polarised.
You may have a vision of Cyprus Erol where we all live together, but it seems to me your vision is more like living side by side than together. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
 
 
Link Partners
605118 Attacks blocked
|
Register 
Log in 
Album 
Home