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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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Hello,Serkan
First let me say I am delighted to see more people from Oz coming to the forum.I think we have a unique perspective,Australia being a multicultual country which encourages(well,did anyway till Howard!)people to maintain their original languages and cultural traditions.We see diversity as richness here,not a reason to hate each other.
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BirKibrisli, I have the same argument as erolz. Turkey had a right to intervene and restore order in Cyprus. You must remember that the Turkish community in Cyprus was under attack for a total of 11 or so years (1963-1974), hence Turkey held back with goodwill demanding that the Turkish community is not mistreated right until 1974 (the last straw.)
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As you say,Turkey had the right to intervene to restore Constitutional order in Cyprus. If they had done that and withdrawn there would be no problem.Turkey did not have the right to occupy part of the island and engage in ethnic cleansing,whatever the excuse.
I remember the years 1963-1974 very well,I was living in Cyprus for most of that time,and life was not a picnic for Turkish Cypriots I agree.I think most Greek Cypriots now accept the point that ENOSIS idea was an act of madness,and a betrayal of all Cypriots.So was the idea of TAKSIM.But two wrongs don't make a right,so partitioning of Cyprus is not acceptable to me.I will strongly argue that the overall good of our country can only be served if we return to our legitimate rights under the 1960 constitution.I am aware that it is not only Turkey who stands in our way on this issue.Probably most Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots don't want to return to the Republic,and that is the real tragedy of Cyprus.
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Just a lil off the topic...I also find it ironic how everybody demands the removal of Turkish troops, when nobody says a word about the number of Mainland British and Greek troops on the island?
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All foreign troops should leave Cyprus,including the British and and the Greek.I am in favour of complete demilitarisation of Cyprus (history has shown that we cannot be trusted with guns).All we need is a Cyprus police force to keep civil order on the island,that's all.
Btw,it beats me what people see in that "foot fetish topic" anyway.Have fun and come and visit us again sometime,Serkan. |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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Hey BirKibrisli,
I like your arguments...but I also like re-butting them.
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| As you say,Turkey had the right to intervene to restore Constitutional order in Cyprus. If they had done that and withdrawn there would be no problem.Turkey did not have the right to occupy part of the island and engage in ethnic cleansing,whatever the excuse. |
We wouldn't have got to this stage if it hadnt of been for 2 underlying factors -
1) If the Greek Cypriots hadn't had refused to provide the Turkish army with a buffer zone when the Turkish forces first landed in Girne (Kyrenia.) The Turkish army requested a 6 or 9 mile buffer zone from memory to no avail. The might of the Turkish army was underestimated.
2) The Greek Cypriot administration failed to protect the innocent Turkish Cypriot civilians in the south of Cyprus. We all know about the Maratha, Tokni, Sandallar massacres. My own family was subjected to it!! By the way my congrats goes out to Mr Angastiniyotis for being brave enough to complete the Voice of Blood I and II documentary.
You say Turkey occupied the island of Cyprus when they landed there. How can a country that was already occupied by foreign subjects such as the Greek Millitary/EOKA since 1963 be occupied? You aren't making sense. You lived through these years..you stated this...hadn't you not noticed the occupation by EOKA and the Greek millitary? My family sure did..and so did thousands of other Turkish Cypriot families.
You also state that the Turkish forces engaged in ethnic cleansing? Wasn't EOKA/Greek Millitary doing this for the past 11 odd years prior to 1974? e.g. kids killed in the bath, people dissapearing off the roads while passing from town to town, etc?
Yes the Turkish army did kill Greeks in Cyprus..I admit to this. But the difference is the Turkish army fought and killed soldiers or pockets of resistance. The Turkish army did not wipe out villages of people including children like EOKA...the mass graves have proven this. Let us not forget this BirKibrisli..you have dissapointed me on this issue.
You may now argue that Turkey ethnically cleansed the Northern part of the island of all its Greek inhabitants. How do you believe they did this? By forcefully filling up buses and sending them all to the South..yes? Wrong.
The process of relocating the Greek Cypriot inhabitants of the Northern part of Cyprus was negotiated between Mr Clerides and Mr Denktas in the 1976 Population agreement from memory (I may have the date incorrect.) Mr Clerides and Mr Denktas actually achieved quite a bit on the Cyprus issue up to the late 1970's...until others began to interfere. The relocation of inhabitants cannot be considered ethnic cleansing when the signature of a representative of that people is seen on the contract.
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| I will strongly argue that the overall good of our country can only be served if we return to our legitimate rights under the 1960 constitution. |
Yes I agree...but what about the overall good of the Turkish Cypriots? Do you honestly believe that the Turkish Cypriots can walk back into Republic of Cyprus in its original state? What alot of Turkish Cypriots are failing to understand is that the Turkish Cypriots are not wanted in the power sharing of the Cyprus Republic. The great ideal is still ENOSIS (Union with Greece.) How can you forcefully re-enter into a broken marriage? If the wife doesn't want you...then you go your own way.
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| All foreign troops should leave Cyprus,including the British and and the Greek.I am in favour of complete demilitarisation of Cyprus (history has shown that we cannot be trusted with guns).All we need is a Cyprus police force to keep civil order on the island,that's all. |
In a utopian society ...I'd say Yes this could happen.
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| Btw,it beats me what people see in that "foot fetish topic" anyway.Have fun and come and visit us again sometime,Serkan. |
I don't see anything interesting that topic. It was just to add abit of humour to such a serious discussion  Im always here BirKibrisli...coz I care about a race of people that have been neglected by the world for the past 40 odd years..the Turkish Cypriots. |
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Crash Test Dummy
Warnings : 3
Ministerial
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 4911
Location: London(ish)
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I think the issue in Cyprus is that both Greek Cypriot's and Turkish Cypriot's lost their homes. Many of these homes had been in the family for as long as they could remember. I dont think it is the actual property more the land and the memories that are associated with them.
However I propose this. Turkey invaded to restore order and protect there people. Turkish Cypriots are no longer in any real danger so why are they still there? |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Serkan wrote: |
You also state that the Turkish forces engaged in ethnic cleansing? Wasn't EOKA/Greek Millitary doing this for the past 11 odd years prior to 1974? e.g. kids killed in the bath, people dissapearing off the roads while passing from town to town, etc?
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Everyone, please avoid using such arguments (justifying one wrong doing with another). Yes, they did kill our people and we complained about it a lot. It didn't give us the right to kill them when we had the power and furthermore it makes us look stupid when we complain about one thing (them killing our people) and then we do the exact same thing that we complained about earlier, i.e. kill their people.
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Yes the Turkish army did kill Greeks in Cyprus..I admit to this. But the difference is the Turkish army fought and killed soldiers or pockets of resistance. The Turkish army did not wipe out villages of people including children like EOKA...the mass graves have proven this. Let us not forget this BirKibrisli..you have dissapointed me on this issue.
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As in every war, innocent civilians got killed in Cyprus in 1974 by both sides in large numbers. Claiming otherwise is stupid.
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You may now argue that Turkey ethnically cleansed the Northern part of the island of all its Greek inhabitants. How do you believe they did this? By forcefully filling up buses and sending them all to the South..yes? Wrong.
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How do you not believe in this? 150.000-200.000 Greek Cypriots lived in the north before 1974 and now they don't. What made them leave? They just decided to pack up and donate their houses, lands, shops to Turkish Cypriots? Maybe the Turkish army did not forcefully filled them in buses but we know what happenned to the ones that remained.
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The relocation of inhabitants cannot be considered ethnic cleansing when the signature of a representative of that people is seen on the contract.
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So you're telling me that Clerides approved displacement of 150.000-200.000 Greek Cypriots? He approved that their houses to be looted? He approved their houses to be given to settlers? He approved their churches to be turned into ruins or turned into a mosque? He approved the traditional village names in the north to be Turkified? You must be kidding, right? |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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Hello Mete,
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Everyone, please avoid using such arguments (justifying one wrong doing with another). Yes, they did kill our people and we complained about it a lot. It didn't give us the right to kill them when we had the power and furthermore it makes us look stupid when we complain about one thing (them killing our people) and then we do the exact same thing that we complained about earlier, i.e. kill their people.
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I agree with you. I don't like using these arguments. Nor am I complaining. I am simply matching the arguments. It is all part of the education process. We get a Greek point of view, then a Turkish point of view. All my life I have heard the point of views of others about Cyprus. When we decide to reveal the Turkish point of view, we have a tendency to embargo ourselves..just as you are suggesting. Now do you ever wonder why our side of the story is never revealed?
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As in every war, innocent civilians got killed in Cyprus in 1974 by both sides in large numbers. Claiming otherwise is stupid.
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Yes innocent victims got killed from both sides. But let us not forget 1 thing Mete -
1) EOKA initiated the killing of civilians and terror in Cyprus.
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How do you not believe in this? 150.000-200.000 Greek Cypriots lived in the north before 1974 and now they don't. What made them leave? They just decided to pack up and donate their houses, lands, shops to Turkish Cypriots? Maybe the Turkish army did not forcefully filled them in buses but we know what happenned to the ones that remained.
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Just as the 90,000 odd Turkish population packed up and left all their belongings in the South so did the Greeks from the north. Unfortunately it is brought more to our attention because there was 190,000 Greeks displaced and only 90,000 Turks.
What happened to the ones that remained Mete? Fill me in I'd like to know?
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| So you're telling me that Clerides approved displacement of 150.000-200.000 Greek Cypriots? He approved that their houses to be looted? He approved their houses to be given to settlers? He approved their churches to be turned into ruins or turned into a mosque? He approved the traditional village names in the north to be Turkified? You must be kidding, right? |
No he didn't. Did Denktas approve for all this to happen in the South? Obviously not. Instances such as looting, desecration, etc are the dreadful ingredients that makes up a serving of that foul tasting dish named war.
The settlers issue...ahh my favourite topic. The Turkish Cypriots sat about for 9 years negotitating a solution with the Greek Cypriots until the 1983 Turkish Federated State of Cyprus was declared. In the meantime the negotiations were not fruitful and Northern Cyprus required development and growth so our good friend Raufy Boy inconjunction with Turkey agreed to bring across settlers to create/re-build our economy that was non-existent since 1963. These people could not live in tents or boats (just as Loucas Charalombous, Cyprus Mail) states openly, so they were provided homes of which they have looked after and lived in to this very day.
The mosques/church issue...another good topic. Crossing over to my fathers old village in the South..there is nothing left of the local Mosque. Roof tiles stolen, nothing left inside..just four walls standing, with trees growing inside. I actually have a report that was conducted by TAK that lists the state of all Turkish property in the South and their conditions...you may be interested?? But you know what Mete? I didn't expect for any Turkish property in the South to be in mint condition.
The Turkish Cypriots have maintained the state of many beautiful churches in Northen Cyprus including Ay Mamas and Apostolos Andreas.
Our final hurdle..the naming of villages in the North to Turkish names. It's a Turkish state so the towns get a Turnish name too. We still use the original names as well. Whilst in a meeting last year with Raulfy Boy (Ex President Denktas for people who haven't figured yet) I made reference to towns/places in Northern Cyprus in their original names..I didn't get locked up, nor was I given a lecture.
Peace to everybody...A five letter word that is abused by many! |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| Serkan wrote: |
All my life I have heard the point of views of others about Cyprus. When we decide to reveal the Turkish point of view, we have a tendency to embargo ourselves..just as you are suggesting. Now do you ever wonder why our side of the story is never revealed?
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I don't agree that "our" side of the story is never revealed. Nobody told you not to express your opinion either.
| Serkan wrote: |
Yes innocent victims got killed from both sides. But let us not forget 1 thing Mete -
1) EOKA initiated the killing of civilians and terror in Cyprus.
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And, your point? As far as I'm concerned, who initiated what is not relevant. What's relevant is the fact that many innocent people died on both sides. Nothing justifies killing of innocent human-beings and I don't care if EOKA or TMT initiated it.
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Just as the 90,000 odd Turkish population packed up and left all their belongings in the South so did the Greeks from the north. Unfortunately it is brought more to our attention because there was 190,000 Greeks displaced and only 90,000 Turks.
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First of all, I'm not sure if the number 90.000 is right. I think it's about 50.000 but that's not the point. You're telling me that it's OK that Greek Cypriots were forced to move to the south because some Turkish Cypriots moved from the south to the north? How does this make sense?
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What happened to the ones that remained Mete? Fill me in I'd like to know?
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They were about 10.000 Greek Cypriots left in the Karpaz region in 1974. Now only about 500-600 remains. Do you ever wonder why? They packed up and left just like other Greek Cypriots for no reason?
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In the meantime the negotiations were not fruitful and Northern Cyprus required development and growth so our good friend Raufy Boy inconjunction with Turkey agreed to bring across settlers to create/re-build our economy that was non-existent since 1963. These people could not live in tents or boats (just as Loucas Charalombous, Cyprus Mail) states openly, so they were provided homes of which they have looked after and lived in to this very day.
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Ok, let's assume that they were only brought to help in developing Northern Cyprus. Why were these people given the right to vote? Why weren't they given Greek Cypriot houses only temporarily and instead they were given the title deeds of the houses they occupied? It's clear that these people were brought to be made citizens which in turn meant hijacking Turkish Cypriot authority in the north. Can't you see that?
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Our final hurdle..the naming of villages in the North to Turkish names. It's a Turkish state so the towns get a Turnish name too. We still use the original names as well. Whilst in a meeting last year with Raulfy Boy (Ex President Denktas for people who haven't figured yet) I made reference to towns/places in Northern Cyprus in their original names..I didn't get locked up, nor was I given a lecture.
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For your information, some Turkish Cypriot village names were also converted after 1974. For example, Serdarli is a 100% Turkish Cypriot village between Nicosia and Famagusta. Its name before 1974 was Chatos but it was converted into Serdarli after 1974 (local people still refer it as Chatos though). So you think this is OK? The inhabitants of the village weren't Turkish before 1974 and that's why they used the name Chatos? And after 1974, they became more Turkish and hence started using a Turkish village name as Serdarli? Doesn't it bother you that historic village names (both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot village names) that were used for hundreds of years were arbitrarily changed just because they weren't "Turkish enough" according to someone? |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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| Yes the Turkish army did kill Greeks in Cyprus..I admit to this. But the difference is the Turkish army fought and killed soldiers or pockets of resistance. The Turkish army did not wipe out villages of people including children like EOKA...the mass graves have proven this. Let us not forget this BirKibrisli..you have dissapointed me on this issue. |
I think you missed BirKibrisli and Mete posts
You are concetrating in too much in the past...You gotta look forward and see what you can do for your country. |
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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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| boomerang wrote: |
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| Yes the Turkish army did kill Greeks in Cyprus..I admit to this. But the difference is the Turkish army fought and killed soldiers or pockets of resistance. The Turkish army did not wipe out villages of people including children like EOKA...the mass graves have proven this. Let us not forget this BirKibrisli..you have dissapointed me on this issue. |
I think you missed BirKibrisli and Mete posts
You are concetrating in too much in the past...You gotta look forward and see what you can do for your country. |
Yiasou Boomerang,mate.
You said it.Let us all agree to stop using the past events to justify the present wrongs on both sides. We will get nowhere saying "but you started this,you killed more than we did,if it wasn't for Eoka or TMT etc
etc" Where can we go from here?Where do we want to go from here?How many of us really want true unification?How many of us are prepared to stand up and be counted?How many of us can say,"Enough is enough,Cyprus is for Cypriots and for everybody else who want to live like Cypriots or with Cypriots?The rest can piss off now and let us get on with it.If we kill each other well,that's what we deserve.At least it will be an honourable death,fighting for the good of Cyprus". Nothing ventured nothing gained.Personally I am sure we have learned our lessons and left alone we will manage to forge a united nation.But there must be enough of us to start with.And I don't see the numbers on the ground,unfortunately. |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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I don't agree that "our" side of the story is never revealed. Nobody told you not to express your opinion either.
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I'm glad we agree on this.
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And, your point? As far as I'm concerned, who initiated what is not relevant. What's relevant is the fact that many innocent people died on both sides. Nothing justifies killing of innocent human-beings and I don't care if EOKA or TMT initiated it.
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Yes you are correct, nothing justifies the deaths of innocent people anywhere at anytime e.g. Cyprus, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
I have one criticism, please do not put TMT in the same category as EOKA. TMT was formed to resist the invasion of Cyprus by EOKA/Greek Military, and EOKA was formed to invade and break down the Republic of Cyprus. Also please note, I am in no way siding with TMT, I am merely distinguishing between the two.
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First of all, I'm not sure if the number 90.000 is right. I think it's about 50.000 but that's not the point. You're telling me that it's OK that Greek Cypriots were forced to move to the south because some Turkish Cypriots moved from the south to the north? How does this make sense?
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I have a map (somewhere on my PC) developed by the Turkish Cypriot authorities about the dispersion of the Turkish Cypriots pre 1974. Im happy to email it to you or post it here once I find it. The map displays the majority of the estimated 118,000 Turkish Cypriots (pre1974) living in lands that now fall under the Southern Cyprus Republic. So I'm pretty sure that the number is more than 50,000, and even if it was 50,000...that figure doesn't exactly constitute the term some.
Here is a little something I dug up in regards to the August 2nd 1975 population exchange agreement between Clerides and Denktas indicating that it wasn't a forced migration of either Turks or Greeks -
The Turkish Cypriot side maintains that whether one wishes to call this a ‘Voluntary Population Exchange Agreement’ or any other appropriate name, is really a question of semantics rather than of substance. The facts are there for all to read, in the relevant paragraphs 1 and 3 of the Agreement, which read as follows in order of priority:
1. The Turkish Cypriots at present in the south of the island will be allowed, if they want to do so, to proceed north with their belongings under an organized program and with the assistance of UNFICYP.
3. The Greek Cypriots at present in the north who, at their own request and without having been subjected to any kind of pressure, wish to move to the south, will be permitted to do so.
On paper it indicates that it wasn't a forced migration, but I could imagine the unrest and uneasiness of both Turks and Greeks being left alone in the north or south when your family and friends have fled to the other side. This is the primary reason why a very minimal amount of Greeks and Turks remain on the opposite ends of the island.
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They were about 10.000 Greek Cypriots left in the Karpaz region in 1974. Now only about 500-600 remains. Do you ever wonder why? They packed up and left just like other Greek Cypriots for no reason?
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The Greeks of the Karpaz region packed up and left just as the Turkish Cypriots did in the South. Hence my argument for a two state solution.
How many Turkish Cypriots exist in South Cyprus today? I could count them on the fingers of my left hand. Why is this the case? Because it is not safe. Why isn't it safe? Because the Turkish army is not there to provide them security..and vice versa for the Greeks.
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| Ok, let's assume that they were only brought to help in developing Northern Cyprus. Why were these people given the right to vote? Why weren't they given Greek Cypriot houses only temporarily and instead they were given the title deeds of the houses they occupied? It's clear that these people were brought to be made citizens which in turn meant hijacking Turkish Cypriot authority in the north. Can't you see that? |
These people were given the right to live, work and vote..just as everybody else. In accordance to the laws of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus we have every right to allow a controlled migration of foreigners to settle in our state. The Republic of Cyprus constitution may suggest otherwise..but that is void (for obvious reasons) and has no bearing on our state.
These people did not hijack the Turkish Cypriot authority. If the foreigners did so called hijack our authority or intended to, they failed miserably. We (Turkish Cypriots) have a democratic republic in North Cyprus, and the voting power of our people in the recent elections has showed that we (Turkish Cypriots) determine who we want as our government. The recent referendum also further cemented that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is not hijacked with our %65 Yes vote for peace. There can really be no argument on this issue.
The real hijacking that did occur was the arrival of Greek millitary personnel in Cyprus during the rise of EOKA (1950's - 1970's). Greek millitary were flooding through the doors of the ports everyday. The world does not know about this because the Cyprus Government administration was dominated by Greeks. So we will never get an accurate figure. The question we should be asking ourselves, and the Greek Cypriot administration of today is -
How many illegal Greek mainlanders entered the ports pre 1974 to boost the Greek population of Cyprus? Interesting question isn't it? Therefore before anybody dares to ask the Turkish Cypriot authorities on the number of Turkish mainlanders in North Cyprus, they better first conduct an investigation into the number of unauthorised mainlander settlers in Cyprus from Greece.
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| For your information, some Turkish Cypriot village names were also converted after 1974. For example, Serdarli is a 100% Turkish Cypriot village between Nicosia and Famagusta. Its name before 1974 was Chatos but it was converted into Serdarli after 1974 (local people still refer it as Chatos though). So you think this is OK? The inhabitants of the village weren't Turkish before 1974 and that's why they used the name Chatos? And after 1974, they became more Turkish and hence started using a Turkish village name as Serdarli? Doesn't it bother you that historic village names (both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot village names) that were used for hundreds of years were arbitrarily changed just because they weren't "Turkish enough" according to someone? |
It does bother me..but the same applies to the old Turkish villages in the south. The inhabitants in the respective Greek and Turkish villages are gone..and gone for good. It's sad..yes I agree. So whether it is called Chatos or Serdarli doesn't really matter anymore.
What matters in Cyprus today is providing an even playground for both Turkish and Greek Cypriots. This all starts with the removal of the inhumane embargoes..I believe that is more important than the name of a village...a village that is one of hundreds..maybe thousands.
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I think you missed BirKibrisli and Mete posts
You are concetrating in too much in the past...You gotta look forward and see what you can do for your country. |
Yes I agree with you %110 Boomerang. We must look towards working for a better future, a better Cyprus, although we cannot forget about the issues that will haunt us forever until they are resolved.
"...one cannot proceed to the future without understanding the past." (Raulf Denktas..or as I like to refer to him as Raulfy Boy.) |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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Serkan, please!
Either do some deep and through studying of past history and events or better not talk at all, because from what you already said so far one thing is certain, that you are messed up! You simply do not know what you are talking about and you are making a foul of your self, even to some Turkish Cypriots who happen to know more.
I would have tried to correct you but I do not know from where to start, as it seems all you know is bits and peaces straight from the Turkish propaganda sources, which you regurgitate without even knowing whether they fit in context or not.
Last edited by Kifeas on Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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boomerang
Warnings : 1
Deputy
Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 1133
Location: Melbourne
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Yes I agree with you %110 Boomerang. We must look towards working for a better future, a better Cyprus, although we cannot forget about the issues that will haunt us forever until they are resolved.
"...one cannot proceed to the future without understanding the past." (Raulf Denktas..or as I like to refer to him as Raulfy Boy.) |
Serkan there is nothing to resolve...I think today everyone knows what they did...Whats the point of always bringing it out?...Whats there to resolve?...How are they going to haunt us?...Its best to leave it to rest and move on...Look for a plan that will unite the country...Better spending time on this rather "you did more to me" mentality.
Mate I think every Cypriot is aware of the dark history of Cyprus...And I hope we have learned a lesson...I do not think history will repeat itself, because today the world has moved on and we are still debating the past...Can you see how pathetic and ridiculous we are?
And this is what Raulfy Boy was preaching for far too long, along with some on our side...
Last edited by boomerang on Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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Serkan,Merhaba
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These people were given the right to live, work and vote..just as everybody else. In accordance to the laws of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus we have every right to allow a controlled migration of foreigners to settle in our state. The Republic of Cyprus constitution may suggest otherwise..but that is void (for obvious reasons) and has no bearing on our state.
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Let me ask you two simple questions:
1.Why has the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus refused to allow those Turkish Cypriots who live abroad the right to vote in its elections?Could it be because they know our votes cannot be bought or controlled?
2.Upto a few months ago,anybody could have walked into the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus with an ID card from Turkey,no questions asked.Do you call this "controlled migration"? |
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magikthrill
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 630
Location: NYC
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The Turkish Cypriots inhabited areas equating to approximately %29 of the greater Cyprus prior to 1974. Now the Turkish Cypriots inhabit %37. I'm not going to sit here and dispute why Turkish Cypriot's will not re-settle in the South due to security because we will go off track. I just wanted to re-iterate that the Turkish Cypriots lay claim to %8 more land than they did pre 1974.
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hey serkan, can i ask where you got the percentage statistics from? are they disputed or accurate? kind of off topic but mostly out of curiosity thanks. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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Serkan,
| Serkan wrote: |
Here is a little something I dug up in regards to the August 2nd 1975 population exchange agreement between Clerides and Denktas indicating that it wasn't a forced migration of either Turks or Greeks -
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This has nothing to do with what we were discussing. Most of Greek Cypriots were forced to leave in 1974. This agreement was signed a year after most of Greek Cypriots left anyway and it only applies to a few Greek Cypriots left in Karpaz area.
| Serkan wrote: |
The Greeks of the Karpaz region packed up and left just as the Turkish Cypriots did in the South. Hence my argument for a two state solution.
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No, my friend. They didn't just pack and leave as you suggested. They were forced to leave in many different ways. You want some examples? Their kids who left to the south to study in high school were never allowed to return back. Their relatives in the south had to get permission from the military to visit and so on.
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These people did not hijack the Turkish Cypriot authority. If the foreigners did so called hijack our authority or intended to, they failed miserably. We (Turkish Cypriots) have a democratic republic in North Cyprus, and the voting power of our people in the recent elections has showed that we (Turkish Cypriots) determine who we want as our government. The recent referendum also further cemented that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is not hijacked with our %65 Yes vote for peace. There can really be no argument on this issue.
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Should I mention the fact that Turkey supported the Annan plan strongly and that's why many "settlers" also voted yes for the plan? The fact that there was a yes vote for peace is not relevant. Have you ever lived in Cyprus and observed how politics work in the north? If not, then don't talk as if you know how politics work in Cyprus.
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How many illegal Greek mainlanders entered the ports pre 1974 to boost the Greek population of Cyprus? Interesting question isn't it? Therefore before anybody dares to ask the Turkish Cypriot authorities on the number of Turkish mainlanders in North Cyprus, they better first conduct an investigation into the number of unauthorised mainlander settlers in Cyprus from Greece.
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Again, completely off topic. First of all, I don't believe that there was a significant illegal Greek mainlanders entering Cyprus before 1974. Secondly, even if that's true, again it doesn't give us the right to do the same illegal thing.
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It does bother me..but the same applies to the old Turkish villages in the south. The inhabitants in the respective Greek and Turkish villages are gone..and gone for good. It's sad..yes I agree. So whether it is called Chatos or Serdarli doesn't really matter anymore.
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What do you mean the same applies to the old Turkish villages in the south? Nobody changed the names of Turkish villages in the south just because they weren't considered "Greek enough" by someone. Have you ever been to Larnaca? The Turkish quarter of Larnaca still has Turkish street names.
And it matters a lot if the village name is Chatos or Serdarli. Chatos was the name of the village for hundreds of years and local Turkish Cypriots still refer it the same way. Why arbitrarily change it to Serdarli just because someone thought it wasn't Turkish enough?
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What matters in Cyprus today is providing an even playground for both Turkish and Greek Cypriots. This all starts with the removal of the inhumane embargoes..
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I agree. Are you ready to stop our inhumanity and let Greek Cypriot refugees back to their home lands? You can't ask for removal one inhumanity and keep exercising your inhumanity, can you? |
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-mikkie2-
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
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I'm just amazed at how many untruths are being said in this thread. Serkan, where have you learned your Cyprus history?
I do not agree what people say here that we should not discuss the past. There is so much that needs to be unearthed before we can move on. The perpertrators of crimes commited in Cyprus on both sides still roam free. These people need to be brought to account. Denying the events of the past will only lead to worse things in the future. |
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