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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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I speak with my Greek Cypriot friends about this topic all the time..and I believe that it is quite an interesting topic. I look forward to get your responses on this.
Question -
"If the Turkish army had created a safe haven within Cyprus (similiar to a North Cyprus) with land/property that had only belonged to the Turkish Cypriots pre 1974, what would be the Greek Cypriot argument?"
There will be no land/property dispute.
Yes there would be loss of lives on both sides (hence this is what happens in every war.)
Would Greek Cypriots demand 1 Cyprus? Or will they be happy to allow the Turkish Cypriots to administer their own affairs in their own state?
Gimmie, gimmie gimmie guys..... |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Serkan wrote: |
I speak with my Greek Cypriot friends about this topic all the time..and I believe that it is quite an interesting topic. I look forward to get your responses on this.
Question -
"If the Turkish army had created a safe haven within Cyprus (similiar to a North Cyprus) with land/property that had only belonged to the Turkish Cypriots pre 1974, what would be the Greek Cypriot argument?"
There will be no land/property dispute.
Yes there would be loss of lives on both sides (hence this is what happens in every war.)
Would Greek Cypriots demand 1 Cyprus? Or will they be happy to allow the Turkish Cypriots to administer their own affairs in their own state?
Gimmie, gimmie gimmie guys..... |
I am sorry but I cannot make too much sense out of your posting. Can you be a bit more descriptive as to what you are actually proposing? |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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Basically what I am saying is if the land that makes up the Turkish Cypriot state today had only been Turkish land, what would be the argument of the Greek Cypriots?
Would they still classify it as invasion? And if yes why would it be labelled an invasion after the events of EOKA and the Athens based Junta from 1963-1974? |
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Kifeas
Warnings : 6
Ministerial
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 2733
Location: Location: Pafos-Cyprus, since 1974 ethnic cleansing. Originally, Lapithos, northern occupied Cyprus.
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| Serkan wrote: |
| Basically what I am saying is if the land that makes up the Turkish Cypriot state today had only been Turkish land, what would be the argument of the Greek Cypriots? |
If Cyprus was a USA and had invaded and occupied part Turkey on some pre-text, what would be the argument of the Turkish Cypriots?
| Serkan wrote: |
| Would they still classify it as invasion? And if yes why would it be labelled an invasion after the events of EOKA and the Athens based Junta from 1963-1974? |
Which particular events are you talking about, because during the 1963-1974 period a lot of events happened in which all the sides were involved, including the Turkish Cypriots and Turkey?
Are you talking about the 1974 coup by Greek Junta, because this is what had been used as the pre-text and /or justification by Turkey, for its invasion in Cyprus? |
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Dhavlos
Warnings : 1
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 4697
Location: Birmingham
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Kifeas, dont make the issue more complicated than it is....hes asking a simple question...dont complicate things with relatively minor details, in the grad scheme of the question.
Answering your question Serkan.....i do not think there would be an issue like now, if the land in the north had always been Turkish Cypriot-owned. What an issue may be, is that the island would function better with more people, and so a two-state solution would be undesirable.....basically a loose federation would probably work in such a situation.
Sadly, this is not the case, and property ownership is not concentrated in one area, it is very diversly mixed, so my personal beleif is that two distinct zones/federal state etc.... is undesirable, and unworkable imo. |
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gabs
Villager
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
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serkan
to answer your question, you've got to look at it this way. lets put the shoe on the other foot. lets say Turkish Cypriot's have been on cyprus for thousands of years. Turkish Cypriots have been struggling for outright rule of cyprus for that period, and just when it appears they have it, suddenly Greece invades and takes 38% of it killing thousands and displacing over 150,000. would Turkish Cypriots give up that struggle for complete rule, or would they stick with it for another thousand years? |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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Thanks guys..it's good to get your opinions.
Now here is the fun part to start re-butting (naturally as we Turks and Greeks do hahaha!)
| Quote: |
Answering your question Serkan.....i do not think there would be an issue like now, if the land in the north had always been Turkish Cypriot-owned. What an issue may be, is that the island would function better with more people, and so a two-state solution would be undesirable.....basically a loose federation would probably work in such a situation.
Sadly, this is not the case, and property ownership is not concentrated in one area, it is very diversly mixed, so my personal beleif is that two distinct zones/federal state etc.... is undesirable, and unworkable imo. |
The Turkish Cypriots inhabited areas equating to approximately %29 of the greater Cyprus prior to 1974. Now the Turkish Cypriots inhabit %37. I'm not going to sit here and dispute why Turkish Cypriot's will not re-settle in the South due to security because we will go off track. I just wanted to re-iterate that the Turkish Cypriots lay claim to %8 more land than they did pre 1974.
| Quote: |
| to answer your question, you've got to look at it this way. lets put the shoe on the other foot. lets say Turkish Cypriot's have been on cyprus for thousands of years. Turkish Cypriots have been struggling for outright rule of cyprus for that period, and just when it appears they have it, suddenly Greece invades and takes 38% of it killing thousands and displacing over 150,000. |
Gabs..this has happened everywhere throughout history. This has happened in countries such as Australia with the Aboriginies and United States with the American Indians.
The difference in Cyprus was that the Turkish population was in grave danger of becoming extinct thanks to EOKA, which took their efforts away from the British and on to the Turkish Cypriots.
| Quote: |
| would Turkish Cypriots give up that struggle for complete rule, or would they stick with it for another thousand years? |
Gabs you have shot yourself in the foot here because Makarios and the Greek Cypriots accepted all the agreements in the 1960 Cyprus Republic Constitution. They then turned around and said "OXI we don't accept it" 3 or so years later, because the underlying goal is ENOSIS. So they basically lied to the United Nations on the world stage.
Now as a Greek Cypriot you have re-instated to me that you want ENOSIS and a Turkish Cypriot minority within the Republic of Cyprus.
How can I accpet what you said when I know that according to the 1960 Cyprus Republic, I (Turkish Cypriot), am a co-owner of the Republic of Cyprus?
Let us also not forget that Cyprus was under Ottoman Turkish Rule from 1571-1878.
This conflict of thought between Greek and Turkish Cypriots is the reason why a two state solution is ideal..it will save alot of us even more heartache in the long run... |
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gabs
Villager
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
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serkan
Hmmmmmm……………………………………….me thinks.
Well Serkan. Im not talking about any rights or wrongs, good or bad, why how, UN resolutions, Eu, world opininion etc etc blah blah. Im asking a simple question
Would you give up a struggle dating thousands of years?
you don’t seem to want to give yours up, and that I think dates some fifty years.
It to me seems a very relevant question in the pursuit of peace. |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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Hey Gabs,
| Quote: |
Well Serkan. Im not talking about any rights or wrongs, good or bad, why how, UN resolutions, Eu, world opininion etc etc blah blah. Im asking a simple question
Would you give up a struggle dating thousands of years?
you don’t seem to want to give yours up, and that I think dates some fifty years. |
You have brought up a very important and emotional question on behalf of the Greek people..and I acknowledge you for that. I understand that the Greek people have strived to make Cyprus formally Greek due to their ties with Cyprus. If I were Greek, I'd strive for the same thing..just as if you were Turkish Gabs you would strive for 2 state solution.
I guess we could never meet halfway because both Turks & Greeks have a different idea for a solution in Cyprus.
One Cyprus for Turks is a 2 state solution.
One Cyprus for Greeks is a single state.
I personally support a 2 state solution not because I am nationalistic or dislike Greeks. I'm quite the contrarary.
I support a 2 state solution because I don't want no more heartache, and I wan't both the Greeks and Turks of Cyprus to move on with their lives and be the best they both can be...
I've seen enough mothers cry for their children..that's what hurts the most. |
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gabs
Villager
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 98
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serkan
thankx for the response.
being the leaders or generation who formally gave up a people's struggle could be the hardest pill of all to swallow. |
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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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| Serkan wrote: |
I speak with my Greek Cypriot friends about this topic all the time..and I believe that it is quite an interesting topic. I look forward to get your responses on this.
Question -
"If the Turkish army had created a safe haven within Cyprus (similiar to a North Cyprus) with land/property that had only belonged to the Turkish Cypriots pre 1974, what would be the Greek Cypriot argument?"
There will be no land/property dispute.
Yes there would be loss of lives on both sides (hence this is what happens in every war.)
Would Greek Cypriots demand 1 Cyprus? Or will they be happy to allow the Turkish Cypriots to administer their own affairs in their own state?
Gimmie, gimmie gimmie guys..... |
Serkan,Merhaba,
Let me ask you another question.As you know a lot of English/British people are buying up land in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,mostly around Girne(Kyrenia).
What if they add up all their land holdings and it comes to,say,5% of the total land ownership in the North.Would they have the right to invite England to send in troops to "liberate" them from the Turkish Cypriots and set up their own British Republic of Northern Cyprus on that 5% of the North?The answer to this question is the answer to your original question. |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Serkan,Merhaba,
Let me ask you another question.As you know a lot of English/British people are buying up land in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,mostly around Girne(Kyrenia).
What if they add up all their land holdings and it comes to,say,5% of the total land ownership in the North.Would they have the right to invite England to send in troops to "liberate" them from the Turkish Cypriots and set up their own British Republic of Northern Cyprus on that 5% of the North?The answer to this question is the answer to your original question. |
Are we assuming here in this hypothetical senario that the very basis on which the Republic of Northern Cyprus had been founded and agreed on was that of a partnership of Turkish Cypriot and British expat communites there and this state of affairs was guaranteed by the UK and that the Turkish Cypriot community had ignored this principal and agreement from the moment it was signed and ignored it's own supreme court rulings and generaly worked to abbrogate and undermine these principles and the rights of the expat community and the Turkish Cypriot elements of government had been directly involved in the illegal use of violence against this smaller and weaker ex pat community? |
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Birkibrisli
Deputy
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1404
Location: Australia
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| erolz wrote: |
| Birkibrisli wrote: |
Serkan,Merhaba,
Let me ask you another question.As you know a lot of English/British people are buying up land in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,mostly around Girne(Kyrenia).
What if they add up all their land holdings and it comes to,say,5% of the total land ownership in the North.Would they have the right to invite England to send in troops to "liberate" them from the Turkish Cypriots and set up their own British Republic of Northern Cyprus on that 5% of the North?The answer to this question is the answer to your original question. |
Are we assuming here in this hypothetical senario that the very basis on which the Republic of Northern Cyprus had been founded and agreed on was that of a partnership of Turkish Cypriot and British expat communites there and this state of affairs was guaranteed by the UK and that the Turkish Cypriot community had ignored this principal and agreement from the moment it was signed and ignored it's own supreme court rulings and generaly worked to abbrogate and undermine these principles and the rights of the expat community and the Turkish Cypriot elements of government had been directly involved in the illegal use of violence against this smaller and weaker ex pat community? |
Erol,
If I am not mistaken,Serkan asked a simple question;would anything change had all the lands in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was owned by Turkish Cypriots?
My point of course is that land ownership by individuals has nothing to do with the soverignty rights of UN recognised independent states. The whole of Cyprus could be owned by Turkish Cypriot,without changing the rights of Greek Cypriots under international treaties.
The political/historical points you brought into the question are another matter.My understanding of the treaty which brought Republic of Cyprus into existence is that it gave Turkey the guarantor's right to intervene to restore the independence of Republic of Cyprus if that was threatened in any way.Am I wrong in thinking that? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| Birkibrisli wrote: |
| My understanding of the treaty which brought Republic of Cyprus into existence is that it gave Turkey the guarantor's right to intervene to restore the independence of Republic of Cyprus if that was threatened in any way.Am I wrong in thinking that? |
My understanding is that it gave it a right and some would say a duty to intervene to restore the consitutional order of the Republic of Cyprus which is not quite the same thing as I see it as restoring the independance of a Republic of Cyprus that was in breach of the consitutional order. |
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Serkan
Villager
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Australia
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Merhaba BirKibrisli,
| Quote: |
Serkan,Merhaba,
Let me ask you another question.As you know a lot of English/British people are buying up land in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,mostly around Girne(Kyrenia).
What if they add up all their land holdings and it comes to,say,5% of the total land ownership in the North.Would they have the right to invite England to send in troops to "liberate" them from the Turkish Cypriots and set up their own British Republic of Northern Cyprus on that 5% of the North?The answer to this question is the answer to your original question. |
BirKibrisli, I have the same argument as erolz. Turkey had a right to intervene and restore order in Cyprus. You must remember that the Turkish community in Cyprus was under attack for a total of 11 or so years (1963-1974), hence Turkey held back with goodwill demanding that the Turkish community is not mistreated right until 1974 (the last straw.)
The British do not constitute to be the co-owners of North Cyprus and are safe in North Cyprus enjoying the same rights as everybody else. The position of the Turkish Cypriot's was quite the contrarary. The comparison you have made between the British Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots is quite different.
We must also take into consideration the will of the 2 main motherlands (Turkey & Greece) to have a presence in Cyprus. The events of 1963-1974 posed a threat to Turkey as their position in Cyprus was undermined by the actions of EOKA/Greek Millitary and their attempt to unite Cyprus with Greece.
Greece had a growing position in Cyprus with the arrival of the Greek millitary from Greece, and Turkey was caught napping. The British already had their bases and were not threatened.
Hence this is another reason Turkey took control of %37 of Cyprus and assisted in creating the Turkish Cypriot administration (Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.) Turkey believes that the Turkish Cypriot share of Cyprus approximately equates to this %37 amount, that is why they rejected the offer to have a single base or small cantons in Cyprus during the 30 hot day negotiations.
Just a lil off the topic...I also find it ironic how everybody demands the removal of Turkish troops, when nobody says a word about the number of Mainland British and Greek troops on the island?
So this means the British and Greeks can live on the island and have their troops there, whilst the Turkish people can live there but have no troops?
Double standards anybody? Going going going...sold to ??? (yes i thought so) Back to the foot fetish topic for me ha ha! |
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